pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
 ·ooma
·Future Nine Corpor..
 ·Comcast
| reply to bbarrera
Re: Sveasoft defamation
said by bbarrera  :
Do you really believe there is a Trojan in the Sveasoft firmwaare? If not why do you create FUD?
I couldn't find any references to a formal audit in any of the links you provided.
As best I can read, the concept of a Trojan being in Sveasoft code is introduced by you... not me... is this a logic test?
As to formal audit, no informal audit, yes  Though over the various forks, there is discussion and fixing of supposed Linksys bugs |
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tidal
Tidal
Premium
join:2001-01-18
Madison, AL | I would like to try the Alchemy firmware before I purchase it.
I want to see if I like it and ease of use or if it's really over my head. |
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linksysOLD
join:2002-03-15
NI
| reply to ld2950
said by ld2950 :
It's to bad we have to register to read the sveasoft thread on your site as well....
JDepew and I made the forums REG only on most topics to at least know who were are talking to when they post.
I hate answering to "Guest" that is all. also my site last month came under 20+ hack attempts. since the site belongs to me and NOT YOU i can do as I like. thus if it is REG only then that is it. sorry if that annoys you. but life aint that fair anyway and you dont get you own way all the time.
--
Regards, Simon
www.linksysinfo.org
WRT54G v2.0 (Alchemy-pre5.1 v2.07.1.8sv Firmware)
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Bobcat
Premium
join:2001-02-04
Bedminster, NJ
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to pandora
I think the point is that you have to trust the people who created the software (source and compilers, etc). If you don't trust the people, inspecting the source code cannot guarantee that the program won't do anything malicious.
For example, I have a Netgear router. I trust the companies involved that my router won't do anything malicious, although I have no way to prove that it won't. But even if I had the source code and compiled it myself, that still wouldn't guarantee that the router would behave properly. You still have to trust the people who created the product and software.
Please note that I am not accusing any of the companies/individuals involved here of doing anything bad.
--
"Saddam Hussein... has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors."
» Colin Powell, February 24, 2001. |
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hanoirocks
join:2004-03-04
Vancouver, BC | reply to Sveasoft6
I have a great idea! Let's ask Oliver Stone what he thinks?
You guys are hilarious |
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linksysOLD
join:2002-03-15
NI
| reply to hanoirocks
Re: Sveasoft defamation
said by hanoirocks :
I have a great idea! Let's ask Oliver Stone what he thinks?
You guys are hilarious
does he make custom firmware for the WRT54G?
--
Regards, Simon
www.linksysinfo.org
WRT54G v2.0 (Alchemy-pre5.1 v2.07.1.8sv Firmware)
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11337845
Live free or die
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Seattle, WA
| said by linksysOLD :
said by hanoirocks :
I have a great idea! Let's ask Oliver Stone what he thinks?
You guys are hilarious
does he make custom firmware for the WRT54G?
No, but he didn't kill a serving president either. He just made a movie about someone who did and the controversy/conspiracy surrounding it. |
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harwoodr
Pornographic Memory
Premium
join:2002-09-05
Hamilton, ON
·Mountain Cable
| reply to tidal
said by tidal :
I would like to try the Alchemy firmware before I purchase it.
I want to see if I like it and ease of use or if it's really over my head.
Get satori then - it should be available now. It'll give you a good idea of what's in alchemy and how it works.
Your best bet is to go here: »linksysinfo.org/modules.php?name···ad&cid=5
--
Become a Browncoat! |
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ElJay
join:2004-03-17
·Great Works Internet
| reply to Sveasoft6
quote:
»www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/···p?t=3868
The policy for pre-release firmware is different. You can also choose to redistribute pre-release firmware under the GPL. You must also offer both source code and binaries as with the public releases. Should you choose to redistribute pre-release versions however, your subscription rights terminate and you will not have access to the Sveasoft forums or future firmware pre-releases afterwards.
I guess technically that sounds fine for GPL software, but I think it is pretty weak from an ethical standpoint. ("You can distribute it because I'm forced to allow that under GPL, but if I find out, then I will blacklist you and gyp you out of what you paid for.") |
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bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·SureWest Internet
2 edits | reply to pandora
Hey pandora, I'm playing a bit of devils advocate but it is clear I've got a different perspective on GPL and the development process.
said by pandora :
The sealed nature of the GPL betas and the threat of cutoff by Sveasoft seem to create a closed system which is contrary to the intent of GPL as I understand it.
Open versus closed development is not contrary to the intent of GPL. In fact one freedom that Richard Stallman talks about is the freedom to privately develop changes to GPL software, and keep the changes private by never publically releasing. You have the freedom to do so under the GPL.
"You should also have the freedom to make modifications and use them privately in your own work or play, without even mentioning that they exist. If you do publish your changes, you should not be required to notify anyone in particular, or in any particular way."
source: »www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
The SuSE Linux distro has a long history of closed betas. This is easy to do within a company as it is a legal entity and that entity has its own rights. It is not uncommon for a company to develop changes to GPL software and keep
those changes private with the company.
My interpretation of Sveasoft's recent actions is that James believes creating a closed system will protect and/or grow revenues. I don't see a problem other than annoying "guard dog" tactics when a community member distributes beta GPL code (which they are free to do, just as James is free to revoke community rights). Given the number of folks willing to work for free, I doubt the community will continue the fast growth path and soon another forked firmware will be the new favorite. For all we know Linksys will fork last public Sveasoft release and compete against Sveasoft!!! If a viable alternative exists, or Linksys delivers real firmware then I won't be renewing my membership next year. Of course if there is value I'll gladly pay $20 for early access and the forums. If it does work out for James @ Sveasoft, more power to him!
If you accept the Richard Stallman FSF quote above (accept there is a role for closed development under GPL), I think the real point you are driving at is as follows... does the Sveasoft beta community qualify as a private use in the context of FSF/Stallman's "use them privately in your own work or play."
If it is private use then I find it difficult to argue over rules that define how an individual is admitted into or removed from the community. You may not like the Sveasoft "country club" and of course you are free to establish your own "country club."
said by pandora :
I do NOT believe it applies in this case, however there seems no active public 3rd party auditing / discussion of Sveasoft GPL product going on... no makefile review ... no scrutiny of the code... I believe one reason is the general hostility to poking around by Sveasoft and the attempt to modify what the GPL is about.
Sorry upon rereading I agree that my original interpretation of your reply was taken out of context. My only source of disagreement is that lack of 3rd party auditing has little to do with Sveasoft and everything to do with human nature (why bother?). Outside of OpenBSD, I honestly can't point to any coordinated, public 3rd party efforts to audit open source software for security purposes. It stands to reason there is one or two efforts outside OpenBSD, I'm just not aware of any. |
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bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·SureWest Internet
| reply to ElJay
said by ElJay :
quote:
»www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/···p?t=3868
The policy for pre-release firmware is different. You can also choose to redistribute pre-release firmware under the GPL. You must also offer both source code and binaries as with the public releases. Should you choose to redistribute pre-release versions however, your subscription rights terminate and you will not have access to the Sveasoft forums or future firmware pre-releases afterwards.
I guess technically that sounds fine for GPL software, but I think it is pretty weak from an ethical standpoint. ("You can distribute it because I'm forced to allow that under GPL, but if I find out, then I will blacklist you and gyp you out of what you paid for.")
It's his community, he gets to define the rules. See my previous post.
It seems clear that a) Sveasoft firmware is very popular, and b) the outrage over closed development model creates an opportunity for a forked distro to become the new favorite of WRT54G(S) owners. It remains to be seen if another forked distro will become as successful. |
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cableb4me
join:2002-03-09
Dunlap, IL
| reply to Sveasoft6
Hacked firmware anthem: 
I was a rebel from the day I left school
Grew my hair long and broke all the rules
I'd sit and listen to my records all day
With big ambitions of where I could play
My parents taught me what life was about
So I grew up the type they warned me about
They said my friends were just a unruly mob
And I should, get a haircut and get a real job
CHORUS
Get a haircut and get a real job
Clean your act up and dont be a slob
Get it together like your big brother Bob
Why dont you, get a haircut and get a real job
I even tried that nine to five scene
I told myself that it was all a bad dream
I found a band with some good songs to play
Now I party all night and sleep all day
I met this chick, she was my number one fan
She took me home to meet her mommy and dad
They took one look at me and said, "Oh my god!
Get a haircut and get a real job!"
CHORUS
(Get a real job, why dont you get a real job,
get a real job, why dont you get a real job)
I hit the bigtime with my rock and roll band
The future's brighter now then I ever planned
I'm ten times richer then my big brother Bob
He's got a haricut and got a real job
CHORUS
(Get a real job, why dont you get a real job,
get a real job, why dont you get a real job) |
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jap
Premium
join:2003-08-10
038xx
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to cableb4me
said by cableb4me :
Instead of wasting your talents on creating hacked code then try to charge people for it. Go get a REAL JOB at Linksys or Cisco!
That's a judgemental & narrow interpretation of "waste". I dumped the slavish so-called "real job" years ago. Still do lots of good work, just don't get paid well. Way happier too. You, on the other hand, sound a bit stressed, a bit intolerant.
James Ewing, as I understand it from Cringley's PBS article, also bailed on your idea of a meaningful life, met a swimmingly swedish gal while traipsing around the Himalayas, and moved to a little island off the coast of Sweden with her. Now isn't that just horrible? What was he thinking? Well, obviously he wasn't thinking that his firmware tinkering was going to transform a crappy little home-owner router into a global feeding frenzy on that hunk of blue plastic or he would have - it now appears - licensed his code differently.
All of which has created a bubbly discourse about the hardware & it's likely future usability that many of us are learning from - which last I checked was a clear intent of this forum. If you feel there is a better place in BBR for this discussion all you have to do is request a topic move. |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to Sveasoft6
Wouldnt it be possible to do the following (forgive me, because I am not exactly familar with the GPL license):
Create a shrinked down version of the linksys firmware with all the GPL code he wants to use including adding a module loader which will be distributed under GPL, and then creating either a single module or multiple modules which add all the features the current firmware adds, BUT these modules are not distributed under GPL as they are sveasoft's original work. |
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alphagetto
join:2003-10-01
Vallejo, CA
| reply to Sveasoft6
I just have few questions after reading this discussion.
1) If someone new to the mod firmware scene, does sveasoft provide free trial period??
2) If my computer is hacked and imported data is stolen because of a modification made by sveasoft who is held responsible (given that since sveasoft is legally saying that product is still in beta form)
3) Is sveasoft providing its potential customers with any sort of product reviews or annalists of the product from an independent or outside source? Another words I don't wana pay 20 bucks and find out product sucks and I was just tricked.
Also i just wanted to add that I have to agree with pandora. Whats to stop sveasoft from just packings it bags and leaving after some flaw is discovered.
They should encourge outside review of the product so that its users feel more comfortable using the firmware. Part of the reason why this product got so popular in the first place is because of open community. But i think now Mr.Sveasoft is seeing that community is gettin bigger then he can handle and he is happy with his customer base so he is quick to lock out the rest. |
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tdb
join:2002-05-30
Concord, NC
·CT Communications
| reply to joako
said by joako :
Wouldnt it be possible to do the following...
James can do whatever he wants with *his* code. He can use any license and terms he chooses.
Problem is he doesn't do that. He uses countless other people's code. Those countless others have all released their code under the terms of the GPl. One of the paramount requirements of the GPL is that in order to use code released under it, you have to release your code under it as well. If your code modifies or "links" (term of art) into GPL code, then your code falls under the GPL.
quote:
(forgive me, because I am not exactly familar with the GPL license)...
You should read it. It is remarkably well written as far as licenses go. It's easy to understand, straightforward, and not written in "legalese". I'm a lawyer; if all legal documents were written as well as the GPL was, then my life (and yours) would be a lot easier.
--
Linux, it's what's for dinner. |
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joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null
·AT&T U-Verse
| said by tdb :
said by joako :
Wouldnt it be possible to do the following...
James can do whatever he wants with *his* code. He can use any license and terms he chooses.
Problem is he doesn't do that. He uses countless other people's code. Those countless others have all released their code under the terms of the GPl. One of the paramount requirements of the GPL is that in order to use code released under it, you have to release your code under it as well. If your code modifies or "links" (term of art) into GPL code, then your code falls under the GPL.
quote:
(forgive me, because I am not exactly familar with the GPL license)...
You should read it. It is remarkably well written as far as licenses go. It's easy to understand, straightforward, and not written in "legalese". I'm a lawyer; if all legal documents were written as well as the GPL was, then my life (and yours) would be a lot easier.
I think you have contradicted yourself by stating that James can do whatever he wants with his code and then stating that if your code links with GPL code then you must also distribute your code as GPL, which is correct, please go back and re-read my post and tell me if what I said would be possible. |
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cableb4me
join:2002-03-09
Dunlap, IL
| reply to jap
said by jap :
You, on the other hand, sound a bit stressed, a bit intolerant.
No, I'm quite well paid and happy.
Sounds like you need a real job too. :P |
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linksysOLD
join:2002-03-15
NI
| reply to Sveasoft6
I was looking at the "TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION" @ »www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
"You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee"
would this mean Sveasoft could charge for a download (Copy) of any FREE src/binary he allows to be distributed?
--
Regards, Simon
www.linksysinfo.org
WRT54G v2.0 (Alchemy-pre5.1 v2.07.1.8sv Firmware)
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