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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
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| Re: Zombies That is like the kid plugging holes in the dyke with his fingers. Sooner or later it will blow up in your face. Linux is not the end all solution. And forcing people to use something they are not familiar with is even more of a problem waiting to happen.
But hey it's your choice as a manager. Just curious but did those laptops come with windows licenses ?
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
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| Re: Zombies said by BosstonesOwn  :
Linux is not the end all solution. And forcing people to use something they are not familiar with is even more of a problem waiting to happen.
I disagree! If an employee can't break-out of what they are familiar with, and learn something new, I don't want them as employees! I don't hire people who know everything, I hire people who can learn. The ability to learn is the definition of intelligence; and I do not hire people of low intelligence.
I may be an old-fart, but I have learned a thing or two in the past 50 years!
Bob
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Nightfall
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| Re: Zombies said by TamaraB :
said by BosstonesOwn :
Linux is not the end all solution. And forcing people to use something they are not familiar with is even more of a problem waiting to happen.
I disagree! If an employee can't break-out of what they are familiar with, and learn something new, I don't want them as employees! I don't hire people who know everything, I hire people who can learn. The ability to learn is the definition of intelligence; and I do not hire people of low intelligence.
I may be an old-fart, but I have learned a thing or two in the past 50 years!
Bob
I think the thing that should be stressed is that Linux is not an end all solution. Also, since I don't do the hiring for the other departments, everyone who comes in knows Windows. IT is like customer service. To throw them Linux and say, "Learn Something" doesn't get you many brownie points. Maybe you can do that, but I can't. Which is why we have a few Linux systems and mostly Windows systems.
Call me an old fart, but I prefer to make people's lives easier by supplying them with the tools that will help them perform to the best of their abilities. Not supplying them with software where they will spend months behind the eight ball trying to learn it or where my IT folks will spend time trying to teach them.
Just my .02 cents. 
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
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| Re: Zombies said by Nightfall :
Call me an old fart, but I prefer to make people's lives easier by supplying them with the tools that will help them perform to the best of their abilities. Not supplying them with software where they will spend months behind the eight ball trying to learn it or where my IT folks will spend time trying to teach them.
Just my .02 cents.
Agree.... Guess I just run with a different crowd. My office is 2 blocks from NYU, and I find hiring 3rd year CS students (major in programming) Ideal for my needs. We run just over 200 Internet domains, with about 10,000 users exclusively on Solaris, BSD, and Linux servers co-located around the country; all this with my partner and I, 2 field techs, one secretary/bookkeeper and half dozen NYU CS students working from their dorms; everyone except the secretary are telecommuting.
Just about every 3rd year NYU CS student can jump right in and do a task on our network with relative low risk and quite impressive results. They all know UNIX, and can get around a command-line driven OS easily; which is needed since none of our servers runs any form of GUI.
So, in my case, I am providing them with the tools they are already familiar with... VI, FTP, SSH, (the only "software" needed to administer a nix system) and a knowledge of C/Unix.
To believe that every computer nerd is windows-centric is a mistake (a very expensive mistake). The best are actually C-Code Hackers and very Nix-Centric (like my NYU students); but like I said, we obviously run in very different circles This has worked for me for decades, since our days on the arpanet, and still works well.
The money I have avoided paying Gates over the years has bought my lovely yacht/home
Bob
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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| Re: Zombies said by BosstonesOwn :
No you misread.
I know how old unix is. However Linux is circa 1992-1993 so newer then windows.
You are quibbling about variations on an old theme. Linux is nothing more than a replacement for SCO Xenix (an X-86 version of AT&T UNIX) the difference is akin to the differences between PC-DOS, MS-DOS, and DR-DOS. If you can deal with one, you can deal with the rest. Linux (and X86 Free/Net-BSD) is nothing more than an X86 version of UNIX, which pre-dates DOS and Windows by years. They all work the same way, and differ very slightly.
Bob
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| | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
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| But technically since the Linux authors claim it was a whole new rewrite of what THEY thought the environment should be it is a new technology same as windows was.
Different peoples looks on an OS. Very slight differences indeed but They are not the same technology since Linux was recoded. Again a difference of opinion by the authors of the software themselves. Same as the dos example.
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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Brooklyn NYC
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by BosstonesOwn :
Linux is not the end all solution.
I absolutely agree, it's not for everyone, not for most probably! It's just my solution, one I am comfortable with; probably not the solution MOST IT managers will implement. But I am an Old-Time-Fart!
said by BosstonesOwn :
and forcing people to use something they are not familiar with is even more of a problem waiting to happen.
I NEVER do that, I hire people who are comfortable with UNIX and with command-line administration and text-programming. This necessarily excludes those who have learned their IT skills on Windows systems, and can't manage without a GUI.
said by BosstonesOwn :
But hey it's your choice as a manager.
Certainly is! God Bless America!
said by BosstonesOwn :
Just curious but did those laptops come with windows licenses ?
The software originally on them was one of the MS/OS's and came with a Microsoft License, I have had varying results (mostly negative) with hardware vendors with respect to getting refunds for taking the MS software off the laptops; I have been told by a few vendors that they risk their lucrative contract with Microsoft if they do so ( I smell MAFIA here).
The Hardware is not MS, so there is no actual licence problem. But I have had big trouble getting reimbursed for NOT using the crap they installed, (the term crap is my very own assessment, and should not be construed as defamation) even after f-disking the drives and returning the CDs unopened! (again MAFIA Tactics)
I find this one of the biggest reasons NOT to use MS products. There is an implied Mafia-Style contract associated with these thieves, and it spills over to the hardware vendors as well (I realize they are under tremendous Mafia-Style pressure from MS).
Dell, turns out to be the best in this respect, you can actually purchase a server from them without a MS OS on it, (and without the MS extortion fees); but most vendors will not even support or honor their hardware warrantee if it is not running the original MS pre-installed stuff! I find this akin to criminal behavior, and illegal (I am not a lawyer), but it IS a problem!
We do have a few SUN Laptops, with solaris installed, for the folks who do most of their work on our solaris systems. There is NO "Licence" issues there, as Solaris is free as long as you own a sun server/laptop.
My only license issues to-date have been getting my money back from hardware vendors who pre-install windows OS's... It's like dealing with a whore, once you give her the money, you will NEVER get it back. Nice rep MicroShit has (Yes I am BIASED, but thats my right as a free American no?) ehh??
Bob
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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| Re: Zombies said by Nightfall :
In a perfect world, everyone would know both operating systems. If you are hiring right out of college, then you have more flexibility than 99% of us do and can demand Linux knowledge.
I don't think knowing any particular operating system has very much to do with it at all. What I look for in a potential hire is someone who understands how things work "under the hood".... In other words someone who understands how the internet works at it's most fundamental levels, totally apart from OS constraints...
How does mail get from point a to point b, How is a web-page "pulled up" by a browser, how does SSH and SSL auth provide a secure tunnel? How can we tell if "user@example.com" is a real address or a spoofed one? How does DNS resolve a name to IP and an IP to name? Anyone who demonstrates a real knowledge and understanding of how these processes function is a potential employee.
What I have found is that most windows-centric IT folks, lack this fundamental knowledge; and instead know how to manipulate a particular OS-Specific program or tool to achieve a certain goal; but do not understand what is happening "under the hood". I have interviewed people with a long list of Certs. MCSE etc, who have no Idea (or a cursory idea) of how things actually work in reality, but could sit down in front of a Win2K IIS/Exchange server and make it do practically anything. I find this totally un-acceptable.
Most of my problems stem from fundamental flaws or omissions in the underlying architecture, and without an understanding of these architectures, a tech or administrator is totally lost in trying to remedy the problem. It has gotten so bad lately that I now discount any job applicant who uses an MCSE cert as evidence of competency! If that is the prevalent part of a resume, it goes into the trash! If on the other-hand, an applicant demonstrates a knowledge of how reality functions, he/she is promptly considered, no matter what OS he/she uses to ferret out the trouble.
I fear Gates has done the IT industry, and the internet community in general, a great dis-service! Practically ruined it actually! The "click-here" mentality is the root cause of most of the garbage we see today. That mentality tends to foster a profound ignorance of how things actually work and replaces reality with some "graphical pseudo-picture" of reality, which 9 times out of 10 is totally irrelevant!
Take all of this with a grain of salt! I AM very biased when it comes to MS. I believe they have been the bane of the internet, and have ruined what could have been an enabling and instructive public medium.
Bob
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
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| Re: Zombies I won't quote your entire post TamaraB, but I have to agree with some points. First off, you would think that most IT people graduating today would know the answers to the questions you pose. I know, if I couldn't explain routing or how to configure it on a Cisco, that I wouldn't get the job. The easy part is setting up email accounts, which I would expect someone at home to know what to do. The hard part is, as you say, how to know if an address is real or spoofed.
What I have found in my travels are IT people who self educate themselves and know very little. Windows people aside, I find Linux nuts who don't have a clue on the inner workings of a network or how to properly upkeep systems. I have interviewed people with MCSE's, A+, CNA's, and CNE's that have no earthly idea how to administrate a network. That is indeed sad. Which is why I hire those that have not only real world experience, but have the education to back it up. Certifications come in 3rd on the list.
I fail to understand how someone, who knows exchange and IIS, don't know how the web works or how to tell a spoofed address apart from a real address. Maybe I get curious and learn how to do these things. Either that or you are biased, as you say. Which is fine, you aren't hiring for my company.
Gates has done wonders for the computer industry that is for sure. He has had nothing to do with the IT side. The people who think going out and getting certifications for high paying jobs are the people to blame. The people who have no real world experience but think they deserve that 90k a year job because they have a college degree are at fault. Getting a good paying job in IT requires not only constant learning, but a good base of education to start out in. No one wants to start out at the bottom anymore. I don't blame Gates at all for the IT job market it is today. That blame falls squarely on the people who make it look so terrible.
The point and click interface has made computers so much easier. It was the Apple that got that started actually. For the end users, to make learning computers easy was the best thing that could have happened. In my opinion, if we were still using DOS and Linux, Apple would have won out. Just my opinion though.
I agree with some of your points though so don't think I am bashing you. I enjoy spending the time exchanging ideas with another IT professional.
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from a tech) I would rather have people with a wide base to start and let them learn from others.