TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
 ·Charter Pipeline
| Great
Just what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.
I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.
bah.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest. |
|
nil
Java Geek
join:2000-11-27 | er.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret.
--
Life is too short to be boring |
|
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| said by nil  :
er.. web developers worth a damn code to a standard which every browser ought to interpret.
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.
er.
Note: You said "ought to interpret"
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest. |
|
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| reply to TheMadSwede
As a web developer, I don't mind if FireFox (and the other Mozilla variants) surge in popularity. It might mean more pressure on Microsoft to increase how well IE supports standards like CSS2. It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder*
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ |
|
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
 ·Speakeasy
| reply to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede :
Just what web developers need. More browser fragmentation.
I wish these companies would just stick to standards, regardless of the branding of the browser.
bah.
You know, that might actually be a valid point....
If it weren't for the fact that browsers like Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc. strive to be standards compliant. That is to say, so long as you code to established standards, your pages will render the same in any given browser.
IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards. And, the things that it doesn't support, tend to make developing basic content more time consuming (read expensive) and more restricted to just that browser. If anything, IE is the source of fragmentation at this point (shocking, eh?).
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) |
|
ariez
join:2004-01-09
00000
| reply to Jason Levine
said by Jason Levine :
It's not like there's a sudden resurgence of Netscape 4. *shudder*
what was wrong with netscape 4? |
|
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to nixen
I guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.
There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest. |
|
justin
Australian
join:1999-05-28
Brooklyn, NY
Host:
IPv6
Business Connectiv..
Home/Office setup ..
Console/Handheld g..
Console Tech
| said by TheMadSwede :
There's no point in writing to standards that browsers ignore.
The biggest offender has been IE. They should set the example, not show others how to dodge standards.
Anyway the point is practically moot. IE has hardly changed a jot in 5 years! having achieved what it thought was a stranglehold, and bundled the browser into the OS, microsoft simply stopped advancing its features. So as the world becoming insecure due to extreme homo-geniality, we also got hardly any improvements, because microsoft had other fish to fry with its free cash. |
|
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| said by justin :
Anyway the point is practically moot.
I thought one of the points of the article was that perhaps it's becoming un-moot. Which is why I'm whining like a big baby about this.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest. |
|
justin
Australian
join:1999-05-28
Brooklyn, NY
Host:
IPv6
Business Connectiv..
Home/Office setup ..
Console/Handheld g..
Console Tech
| if the point of the article is that IE is losing its market share, and your point is that standards non-compliant browsers are a PITA, then you should be happy because one of the biggest contributers to standards-ignorance is sliding down the market share scale. |
|
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede :
I guess my point is that I'd LOVE to develop on pure standards like CSS2, etc. etc.; however, if even 50% of the browsers aren't compliant, then my work magically doubles.
Currently, about 91% of the browsers aren't compliant. 
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) |
|
sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| reply to ariez
said by ariez :
what was wrong with netscape 4?
Really, really crappy CSS support. As in, feed it something that is to spec and the browser crashes.
--
Bush/Cheney '04!
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it." |
|
nil
Java Geek
join:2000-11-27
Host:
Webmasters and Dev..
Forum Feature Requ..
| reply to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede :
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.
er.
That's cute.
Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
--
Life is too short to be boring |
|
ariez
join:2004-01-09
00000 | reply to sporkme
didn't know that. used 4.79 for years (as primary browser) and still do at times but as a secondary |
|
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to nil
said by nil :
said by TheMadSwede :
er...nice er...but er...why er...do er...browsers er...not all er...follow er...standards.
er.
That's cute.
Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
Thanks.
If you think I'm claiming that IE is compliant, I'm not. But I am saying that browser compliance doesn't mean a lick to users; they want their browser to work. The more browsers the users use, the more browsers we need to develop for -- that is, until all browsers only comply with uniform standards.
Since all browsers don't comply with uniform standards, it's a pain in the rear.
Anyhow, I must not have done a good job of 'splaining myself, but my complaint is against browsers that don't comply, all the while recognizing that the #1 browser that people use does not comply, but still must be developed for because it's the #1 browser that people use.
Whether or not IE is compliant is irrelevant. People use it, you have to consider it.
--
Bipartisan politics has become a tallest midget contest. |
|
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| reply to nil
said by nil :
Anyway back on topic, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a browser that offends more than IE when it comes to following standards.
Netscape 4.
Or did you mean recently released browsers? 'Course, if you did, that would eliminate IE also.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ |
|
KoolMoe
Aw Man
Premium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Speakeasy
| reply to TheMadSwede
Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Sure, lots of folks would be mad for a few weeks, but I suspect most would finally switch to a complaint browser once enough sites replied to their rants with 'use a complaint browser'.
Boy, that would scare MS poopless...
KM
--
If Clinton lied, so did Bush.
Iraq Casualties | War Propaganda
Air America - Radio for the Rest of US! |
|
Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
| reply to nixen
said by nixen :
IE, on the other hand, simply DOESN'T, or at least, doesn't conform to updated standards.
I think that's the best point. IE 6 hasn't been updated in too long. When IE 6 was first released, it was the most standards compliant browser around. The major alternative was Netscape 4 which supported virtually no CSS.
IE 6 rightfully gained market share while Netscape first tried to develop a new version, then scrapped it to start over, then got buried in coding for the next few years. For all intents and purposes, Netscape let their browser languish while Microsoft took off. (Yes, there's also the issue of bundling, but IE5 and IE6 were vastly superior to Netscape's offering at the time.)
Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4.
--
-Jason Levine
http://www.jasons-toolbox.com/
http://www.PCQandA.com/
http://www.urateit.com/ |
|
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| said by Jason Levine :
Of course, once they gained dominance, Microsoft made the exact same mistake that Netscape made: They all but stopped improving IE. So while the standards shifted, IE didn't keep up and is now out of date. Of course, it's still more standards compliant than Netscape 4.
Yeah, but at least NS4 had roaming profile support. That's been an open RFE since like 2000. It's never gotten solved since noone could agree how to reimplement it into the new Mozilla code.
-tom
--
"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) |
|
Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| reply to KoolMoe
said by KoolMoe :
Or...
maybe if all designers made all their pages standards compliant so almost every site on the net wouldn't render correctly in IE - perhaps MS would finally be forced to get their act together and abide by the standards?
Here's the deal:
-from my experience IE will render pertty much everything, compliant or non-compliant
-"compliant" browsers( by which I mean non-ie because many of the "compliant" browsers aren't actually fully compliant) render varing levels of non-compliant code.
I've been asking for about a year now, why is a browser that vomits when digesting non-compliant code better than one that handles it seamlessly? I'll answer for you it's not. And I guarantee that the things that IE does not comply to would be added fairly quickly if webmasters started using them.
IE does not write non-compliant html; webmasters do. Lets place the blame where it is due.
--
John Kerry- doing for America whatever it is you want him to do for however long you want him to do it; except if you didn't want him to do it in the first place in which case he never did it. |
|
