 OZO Premium join:2003-01-17
| reply to Hayward Re: Windows OS is using wrong measurements
said by Hayward : said by BlitzenZeus : These are deceptive practices, period. Selling it under one measurement, but in reality its going to be used under another measurement.
So I suppose you feel real ripped off too because you buy a 270 horsepower car, but that is ONLY at a fixed rpm and load... in the real world overall performance not barely near that... but thats OK?
Why not JUST BE EDUCATED in what it is you are actually buying... you REALLY need 120GB of TRUE space then buy a 160GB DRIVE... WHAT $10-20 MORE MAYBE BIG DEAL!!
And that is just because you start calculating in binary, while I expect that you do it as usual - in decimals? -- Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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  Wily_One Premium join:2002-11-24 San Jose, CA | OZO, there are 10 kinds of people in this world: those that understand binary and those that don't. |
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 OZO Premium join:2003-01-17 | Good point! You're proving that two people may see '10' under different angles if they're not agree on a basic standard terms. It's good for marketing, not for user. -- Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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  zoom314 Superman Premium join:2001-04-30 Yermo, CA
| reply to OZO said by OZO : Accordingly to International Standards in the example above we have size 16.7MB which is equal to 15.9MiB.
Well OZO in this Country, The correct abreviation for Megabytes is MB not MiB, That was what I learned 25 years ago, So unless You are a Troll, Please use the correct term or go away. -- Here's My personal website on Verizon.netCrunching for Team STARFIRE all the way... |
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  BlitzenZeus Burnt Out Cynic Premium,MVM join:2000-01-13 Beaverton, OR
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1 edit | reply to Hayward Why should the consumer be on the short end of the stick with deceptive practices? Why don't they just label the drives data capacity instead of trying to make it out to be bigger than it is for its intended use? Its all marketing bs, just like the guy driving the expensive sports car to compensate for something else.... -- My hourly rates: $25 per hour. $35 per hour if you want to watch. $45 per hour if you want to help. $75 per hour if you tried to fix it, and failed. The biggest error is sitting in front of your keyboard. |
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  zoom314 Superman Premium join:2001-04-30 Yermo, CA | reply to OZO Read this page »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabyte |
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 OZO Premium join:2003-01-17
| reply to zoom314 said by zoom314 : said by OZO : Accordingly to International Standards in the example above we have size 16.7MB which is equal to 15.9MiB.
Well OZO in this Country, The correct abreviation for Megabytes is MB not MiB, That was what I learned 25 years ago, So unless You are a Troll, Please use the correct term or go away.
May I ask you to look for a sec into link which I already mentioned in this thread twice. It is standard that defines the abbreviations MB and MiB. Then you'll see how to use these terms in a right way.
If you do not have that time I'll just put it here for you: one mebibyte 1 MiB = 220 B = 1 048 576 B one megabyte 1 MB = 106 B = 1 000 000 B -- Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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  BlitzenZeus Burnt Out Cynic Premium,MVM join:2000-01-13 Beaverton, OR | Take a good look at all of the operating systems.... You will see this is not an adopted standard. |
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 OZO Premium join:2003-01-17
| said by BlitzenZeus : Take a good look at all of the operating systems.... You will see this is not an adopted standard.
So - adopt it!
No more talks about deceptive practices, marketing speaks, perverted understanding of term megabyte as 1 024 000 bytes by floppy disk manufacturers... No more discussions here that I've bought 160GB disk but it only has 147 GB - and it just because both (seller and buyer) will use the same understanding of term GB, which is simply calculated by adding zeros. No more miscalculations when you copy files from media to media just because the different media manufacturers (and you as well) - all have something different in mind when imply measurements. -- Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself... |
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 VirtualLarry Premium join:2003-08-01
| reply to OZO I do have to agree with the OP though regarding measurements. It's MS that got it wrong initially, and has just kept doing so all along, to the chagrin of many HD purchasers, etc., that buy a "160GB" HD (correctly measured), and find out that Windows only reports 149GB (incorrectly measured). So they feel cheated. Why? Because the HD mfg's were misleading, or because MS mislables storage sizes?
But yet, data-communication connection speeds are properly measured - 56K modems were 56000 bits/sec, not 57344 bits/sec. A 10/100 ethernet is 100M bits/sec, not 104857600 bits/sec.
So MS just got their sizing vs. naming of storage units wrong. Oh well. Hopefully, they will learn to correct their mistake. I hate downloading a file from a site running a non-Windows system, that says the file is 100KB, and download it, and Windows' shows it to be slightly less - I'm never quite sure if I've downloaded the complete file. |
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  zoom314 Superman Premium join:2001-04-30 Yermo, CA
| reply to OZO Well here is what I was talking about:
said by Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabyte: Megabyte
A megabyte is a unit of measurement for computer storage, memory and information; while its exact definition varies, it is in theory equal to one million bytes. The symbol for megabyte is MB (note B for Byte, lowercase b would mean bit).
Three definitions for megabyte are being used:
1. 1 000 000 bytes or 106 bytes - this is the definition used by telecommunications engineers and storage manufacturers among others. It is consistent with the SI prefix "mega" and is endorsed by international standards bodies. 2. 1 048 576 bytes - 10242, or 220. This definition is often used in computer science and computer programming, when talking about the size of files or computer memory. The reason is that computers use the binary numeral system internally. 3. 1 024 000 bytes - 1024 times 1000. This is an (erroneous) definition used by floppy disk manufacturers. See mebibyte.
The definitions of the kilobyte (either 1000 = 103 or 1024 = 210 bytes) and of the gigabyte (either 109 or 230 bytes) have similar ambiguities.
To reduce the confusion and distinguish between meanings (1) and (2) above, the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), adopted an international standard in December 1998 which reserves the term megabyte for 106 bytes and introduces the new term mebibyte (abbreviated as MiB) for 220 bytes. Similarly, the terms kibibyte (KiB, equal to 210 bytes) and gibibyte (GiB, equal to 230 bytes) were introduced. This naming convention, while strongly endorsed by IEEE and CIPM, has not yet been widely accepted, and is simply ignored by most people.
Note the distinction between a megabyte (one million bytes) and a megabit (one million bits). A megabit is abbreviated as Mbit (preferably) or as Mb (when the byte is abbreviated by an upper case "B", which stands for Bel in SI). There are eight bits in one byte, so a megabyte (Mb) is eight times as large as a megabit (Mbit). Megabits are often used in applications where a serial bitstream is the item of interest, particularly in communications and in specifying the internal data rate of a computer hard drive. In these contexts, one megabit is almost invariably defined as 106 bits. In practice, the abbreviation Mb is frequently encountered as a mistaken notation for Mbit. In most cases, an examination of the context will indicate which unit of measure was intended.
Similarly, a Gbit is a gigabit and a kbit is a kilobit: these units too are often written in error when using the "b".
The prefix "mega" comes from a Greek word meaning "large", and it was chosen because a million is a large number.
MiB is like It said, Is simply ignored by most people. And so I'll ignore It and I believe the Majority here will do so too. -- Here's My personal website on Verizon.netCrunching for Team STARFIRE all the way... |
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  Hayward K A R - 1 2 0 C Premium join:2000-07-13 Key West, FL
| reply to BlitzenZeus said by BlitzenZeus : Why should the consumer be on the short end of the stick with deceptive practices? Why don't they just label the drives data capacity instead of trying to make it out to be bigger than it is for its intended use?
Well again just because of the variability of File System sizes... that is an impossibility, no matter how you do the math. -- »haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) |
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  Mr Anon
@emhril.ameritech
| reply to OZO Your problem here is that you are trying to define a base two system in base ten ways.
Just think about it BInary BI, meaning 2... why two? Off and on Open and closed Yes or know zero and one
Thats how computers operate, either the gate is open or the gate is closed. Disc/disk storage is meant to store what is in ram that is... back to the whole BInary thing. So to make a device that can hold the BInary data in the ram you'd want to make sure that it worked in th same way because we would all agree that:
1024 (2^10) is more than 1000 (10^3)
and those are units because to actually prove your argument you'd have to go back and define bytes as well (why 8 bits and not 10).
NOW to get the last point out of the way. We know why we use 2^X0 for computer size terms but what about this kibibite stuff. All of this came about when they tried to introduce in in 1998, if you look around the start of computer storage terms were around well before 1998 and while metric system was around be the computer terms it was for base 10 math. Now all this commotion came about because it IEEE or IEC or whatever thought that people were too dumb to know when they were talking about metric binary or metric decimal, which for a good time was true, there was lots of confusion. This whole mess is the standard organization trying to fix the mess... YEAS (decades even) after it started and people and just learned to make the conversion when confronted.
Lastly too clear up why drives don't use the teams that operating systems and everyone else uses when speaking of computer storage. All thats needed is to look back in the late 90's when the platter size race was on. If one MFG make a drive that was oh say 10% bigger than the other guy then they were the winner people brought their drives. SO to make their drives bigger MFGs went with the new figures that said the unites were smaller. This can be seen by the Size definition of the floppy disk, the zip drive, and the LS-120. Some MFG actually still hold true and count 2^x0 and most computer uses love them for it.
Besides you go and pronounce and tell someone you picture is 867 Kibibits! Is kibibit in your spell checker's dictionary? |
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 phoenixtech
join:2002-10-29 Platte City, MO
| reply to OZO Well I think we ought to be looking into this angels on the head of pin thing. I think G$D is just messing with us to make us believe that there are more angels than he actually provides.
I am sure that he is doing this in order to get us to pray more, just to inflate is already large ego. |
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  Wills
join:2001-01-03 Port Charlotte, FL
| reply to OZO said by OZO :
The mess with measurements creates problems for people trying to use it.
No, the measurements only create problems for people who don't understand it. -- Abit VP-6 twin 800EB's @ 1002 Mhz.Proud member of the XDC. |
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 vernalex Premium join:2000-10-19 Manchester, CT
| reply to OZO Windows does not use the wrong measurement system. The correct computer measurement system is: 8bits/byte 1024bytes/kB 1024kB/MB 1024MB/GB 1024GB/TB etc.
The concept of KiB, MiB, etc. is new and not widely accepted yet. Hard-drive companies use it because it makes their hard-drives look bigger than they are, so when one company started doing it.. they all had to.
When you see byte as the base unit, then you're supposed to know it's not a purely metric system. It is a binary system. It is based on this because of the way computers store memory, not so people can understand it. So, this was the way computers were designed, and redefining terms is confusing.
For example, RAM still uses the measurement system that "M$" uses. That's because it's the only system that makes sense with computers. 2^10 = 1024 ... binary metric. Computers don't speak decimal, so the conversions shouldn't be in decimal. |
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  72276539 Premium join:2001-01-19 Atlanta, GA
| reply to Hayward said by Hayward : said by BlitzenZeus : These are deceptive practices, period. Selling it under one measurement, but in reality its going to be used under another measurement.
So I suppose you feel real ripped off too because you buy a 270 horsepower car, but that is ONLY at a fixed rpm and load... in the real world overall performance not barely near that... but thats OK the engine CAN do it when just right?
Better question, is that 270HP at the crank or at the wheels? -- some people believe in astrology others believe in technology some people believe in all those -ologies but i believe in swordfish |
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 w2co
join:2003-07-16 Longmont, CO | reply to Wily_One Yes and a Kb is actually 1024 bytes... duh - It all starts there. |
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  Omega Displaced Ohioan Premium join:2002-07-30 Cheyenne, WY clubs: 
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| reply to VirtualLarry said by VirtualLarry : I do have to agree with the OP though regarding measurements. It's MS that got it wrong initially, and has just kept doing so all along, to the chagrin of many HD purchasers, etc., that buy a "160GB" HD (correctly measured), and find out that Windows only reports 149GB (incorrectly measured). So they feel cheated. Why? Because the HD mfg's were misleading, or because MS mislables storage sizes?
Dude, this is completely wrong. MS does it right by calculating 1024bytes 1KB. That is how is should be. The HD manufactures calculate 1000bytes=1KB. That 24 bytes makes a big difference.
I see nothing wrong with the current system. It pisses me off HD manufactures can get away with false advertising, but to their defense, they put in small print: 1GB=1,000,000,000 bytes.
I think the MiB system is stupid, and things are fine the way they are. Considering the US is still using imperial measurements, I am be safely reassured that I will not have to deal with a storage new measurement system. -- Bush 2004 My site SBC DSL 2650/384 |
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  Johkal Cool Cat Premium,MVM join:2002-11-13 Happy Valley clubs:
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| reply to 72276539 said by 72276539 : said by Hayward : said by BlitzenZeus : These are deceptive practices, period. Selling it under one measurement, but in reality its going to be used under another measurement.
So I suppose you feel real ripped off too because you buy a 270 horsepower car, but that is ONLY at a fixed rpm and load... in the real world overall performance not barely near that... but thats OK the engine CAN do it when just right?
Better question, is that 270HP at the crank or at the wheels?
It depends on what decade you are talking about. Up to early 70s, HP was before the drivetrane. Through the 70s & 80s the HP was after the drivetrane(whether it be after the rear differential or after the trans-axle). The 90s starting seeing the HP as once again before the drivetrane. Of course there are exceptions in all decades, but this in generally correct. And by the way, torque developed in your first & second gear is what wins the quarter mile. -- Write me up for doing 125....... |
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