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B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28 | reply to dadkins
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land
"Advertising You Want" To Inflict On Others.
They're marketing to THEIR customers. 
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
 ·Comcast
1 edit | reply to eburger68
Sic 'em Eric! 
EDIT: Thanks for the list of vendors that are still targeting this BS!
Intermute SpySubtract
McAfee AntiSpyware
Microsoft Anti-Spyware
PC Tools Spyware Doctor
Spybot Search & Destroy
Sunbelt CounterSpy
Webroot Spy Sweeper
Xblock X-Cleaner
I have three of these still attacking WhenU... time to go get #4. | |
ltship
join:2002-08-11
Sturgeon Bay, WI
| reply to eburger68
Eric is on track and doing what he does best.. letting everyone know where the problems are and asking the right questions of the vendor(s).
If and when we see what Lavasoft's reply is to Eric's inquiry should we then decide what course to take.. of course, I myself will weight Eric and other professionals opinions on if AdAware is to be a trusted removal program for the future in my suite of removal tools I use daily in my shop.
With other programs out there able to find and remove WhenU, we have time to sit and wait.. so the sky is not falling.. yet.
Tks Eric.. | |
antiserious
The Future ain't what it used to be
Premium
join:2001-12-12
Scranton, PA
| reply to eburger68
... thanks again eric ... just one more reason NOT to depend on any one product to 'cover your rig' ...
... good luck getting a straight answer from Lavasoft ... and while I respect Patrick for Spybot, when S&D recently 'pre-checked' a few 'Ignore Products' did they announce or disclose that? ... I don't recall seeing any notice - but to be fair, they DO provide a way to go in and 'un-check' those exclusions (which I do and recommend) ... I can see no way to undo what Lavasoft has done, short of the 'revert-to-older-defs' route some suggested (which I don't see as a viable solution) ...
... f w i w ...
--
... "Nobody's perfect - well, there was this one guy, but we killed Him" ... Christopher Moore, 'Lamb' ... | |
COMMAN
Plug Me In
join:2000-07-17
Mount Juliet, TN
 ·Embarq
 ·Vonage
| reply to eburger68
Eric,
For your efforts, and for your sense of ethics (SO lacking in SO many people/companies), THANK YOU!!!!
If the company you are presently consulting for produces an anti-spyware app. based on your work, then you SHOULD talk about it. If they think enough of your work to support it commercially, then by all means I think enough of them to buy their product. There are too few of you "real white-hats" left on the net, and I believe in putting my money where the good guys are.
Keep up the good work! | |
StraitShoot
Who Loves Ya Baby? - Theo Kojak
Premium
join:2003-02-08
Clinton, MA
| reply to eburger68
Believe me, from what I am seeing, and what I've been testing lately, the only 3 anti spyware apps I like are...
1. Spysweeper
2. McAfee Antispyware..(it isn't too bad, actually)
and of course Spybot S&D.. but Spysweeper seems to have the edge IMHO... | |
SnowyOne
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Clearwire Wireless
| reply to eburger68
If Lavasoft's decision to de-list is based even in part on the
new "BearShare comes with ads - Please read this carefully"
disclosure/acceptance agreement then it would seem a fair question
to ask is "Have all the installs previous to this new disclosure been giving
opportunity to visit the new disclosure & decide wether to keep or scrap
the installation? There's no question they have the ability to present this
new disclosure on any/all of the systems infected by them. | |
eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28 | reply to eburger68
Hi All:
Paul Laudanski at CastleCops has weighed in with his thoughts:
WhenU lives on the edge of danger
»castlecops.com/article5739.html
Best,
Eric L. Howes | |
EFudd
Premium
join:2001-09-08
Brownsville, OH
| reply to eburger68
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land
This may be of interest to others:
This past Friday I was trying to remove a combination of trojan and adware from my sisters Win98 computer. I was able to knock everything out with both Norton, Ad-Aware, and using Add/Remove Programs except for one pesky adware program.
I didn't pay that much attention to Ad-Aware not removing it, nor did I think to try and find out what program it could have been.
I was able to remove its reference in the Registry Run key after I disabled the program by doing the ctrl-alt-dlt and EndTask. It would re-add itself to the registry if you didn't EndTask on it by pointing to 2 different filenames( size around 498kbyte ) in the C:\Windows\System directory that had the hidden attribute activated.
I don't know if this is part of When-U, but if its not, maybe it points to a new Adware program that isn't in the definitions yet, or worse... possibly more delistings.
Whatever the reason, this was definitely Adware as it had pop ups when connected to the net( without opening a browser ) and would try to get you to connect to the net when you first turned the computer on if you weren't already connected to the net.
--
Do you SetiAtHome | As you place limits and controls on me, you place them on yourselves. | |
Kiwi
Premium
join:2003-05-26
USA
·Comcast
·Aristotle Internet
3 edits | reply to eburger68
Wonder when the change took place?
Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:30:27 PM ~Clean, no instances noted of any spyware at all; from any source checks. Have not yet looked at the current scenario, but this has certainly tweaked my interest!
New version update:
Nicolas Stark Computing AB - Software License Agreement
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The term "Software" includes, and these terms and conditions also apply to, any updates, modifications and upgrades to the Software that you may receive from time to time.
1. License Grant. This License permits you to use one copy of the Software solely for your internal operations on a single computer. The enclosed documentation ("Documentation") may not be copied. You agree that you will not sublicense, assign, transfer, distribute, pledge, lease, rent or share your rights under this License except with prior written permission from Nicolas Stark Computing AB. You agree that you will not modify, adapt or translate, or disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer or otherwise attempt to discover the source code of the Software.
2. Nicolas Stark Computing AB's Rights. You acknowledge and agree that the Software and Documentation (the "Licensed Products") are proprietary products of Nicolas Stark Computing AB protected under international copyright law and disclosed to you by Nicolas Stark Computing AB in confidence. You shall take all reasonable steps to safeguard the Licensed Products. Nicolas Stark Computing AB owns and retains all copyright, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights in and to the Licensed Products. This License conveys to you only a non-exclusive and limited right of use, revocable in accordance with the terms and conditions of this License.
3. Upgrades and support. Upgrades and support services may be purchased under separate agreement with Nicolas Stark Computing AB.
4. Limited Warranty. Nicolas Stark Computing AB warrants that for your benefit alone, for ninety (90) days from the day of delivery to you (the "Warranty Period") the Software media, under normal use in a compatible execution environment, will be free from defects in material and workmanship. Any replacement program will be warranted for the remainder of the original warranty period or thirty (30) days from the date of receipt by you, whichever is longer. In no event may you bring any claim, action or proceeding arising out of the warranty set forth in this Article 4 more than six (6) months after the date on which the breach of warranty occurred.
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8. Termination. This agreement is in effect until terminated. You may terminate the agreement at any time by destroying all copies of the Software and Documentation and erasing any copies on storage media. The agreement also terminates if you fail to comply with any terms and conditions of this agreement. In such event, you agree to destroy and erase all copies of the Software and Documentation, and Nicolas Stark Computing AB will be entitled to all remedies in accordance with applicable law.
9. General. This agreement shall be governed by the laws of Sweden.
10. Contact. Use of the Software other than for your internal operations on a single computer requires that you have entered into a separate license agreement with Nicolas Stark Computing AB. Please e-mail contact@lavasoft.de for further information.
*****************************
....That's an out agreement, but no mention of current practices related to WhenU. Nobody from Adaware seems to be around here either, as of now......{Later today} I checked from work, because this is an important issue.
This post is for those that overlook the "fine print". Basically It's a product that does not actually profess to stand for what it represents, or perhaps I mis read this? I wonder what "Corruption" means if spyware is implanted into the data base, from the home software source?
There are going to be some really annoyed people if this thing is not resolved FAST and It's time the folks @ Adaware stepped up to the plate and gave their version of this, perhaps.
[Edit] See the zip as well! I ran McAfee Enterprise, Spybot after going advanced & unchecking the TWO items that one is warned about not unchecking; for service ~{Revision}-Sidestep & LSP.new.net (Winsock LSPS), but I believe others have noted three, I did not find three. I went through the Reg files, completly and can't find any reference to WhenU. Either Adaware has immediately removed the offending 'Bitch' (NO offence, to any Woman out there, it's just seems to fit the scenerio) or the whole thing is wrong, if that's not enough; perhaps I'm wrong! Still, need to see some Adaware folks explain this situation, you think?
We trust those that inform, on DSLR; sometimes implicilty. I don't think Adaware is the greatest tool, but It's certainly better than most. I do prefer Spybot!
Cheers
--
2.66g/533fsb Intel CPU @ 3.48g
512meg Twinmos PC3700~466 DDR @ 2.8v -PCpower&Cooling 512.
ATI 9500 Pro @ 9700 Pro @1.6v
--
AMD ASUS A7N8X-E ~
2500+ @3200 ATI 9500 Pro, Corsair 512LL.-- Aristotle.net | |
BIGHUSKER
join:2002-01-20
Minneapolis, MN
| Something smells fishy...Somebody asked Lavasoft to clarify this on their message board, and the message has been deleted... The topic was here - »www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···ic=58938
Sounds like they got caught with their pants down and don't want people to know about it. | |
stanely
join:2003-01-04
Hopkins, MN | reply to eburger68
Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land
Did Lavasoft delete the thread that Eric posted on Lavasoft forums under Suggestions and Bug Reports or did they just move it somewher else?
I am having trouble finding it....hmmmm. | |
christos
join:2002-01-09
Bridgewater, MA
·Comcast Formerly ..
2 edits | reply to eburger68
Thank you for the heads up. I just checked the link on Lavasofts web site and the silence from Lavasoft is deafening. Up to know the two tools I used and recommended were Hijackthis and Ad-aware. It seems that as of now I am down to one. Needless to say I'll be watching this topic very carefully. As far as I am concerned in today's Internet crapware is worst that viruses.
___
They deleted the thread! It still shows up in the search, but its gonne | |
Kiwi
Premium
join:2003-05-26
USA
·Comcast
·Aristotle Internet
| reply to eburger68
Then they must be Masters of the Net, don't get me wrong I believe SpyBot does a good job; but the fishy smell might mean Adaware reconsidered the 'Hand Out' and cut the fillet short, I can't find any reference to the issue; so either I'm really, really stupid or Adaware decided the move they made was horribly wrong! But we are of course yet to hear the version presented by Adaware, that 'small' omission may cost their reputation!
I thought it would be of interest to try kill zoning the offending 'Hijack', or @ least proving that it existed; I can't can anyone else PROVE it exists?
Guess we will have to wait, but I'm convinced they realized they screwed up and fixed it pronto.....Who knows, but I can't find the file, in question!
Cheers
--
2.66g/533fsb Intel CPU @ 3.48g512meg Twinmos PC3700~466 DDR @ 2.8v -PCpower&Cooling 512.ATI 9500 Pro @ 9700 Pro @1.6v--AMD ASUS A7N8X-E ~2500+ @3200 ATI 9500 Pro, Corsair 512LL.-- Aristotle.net | |
k_o
Que Hora Es?
Premium
join:2002-12-05
Lakeport, CA
clubs:
| reply to eburger68
Also, After today's discussion, I revisited the EULA.
As of 1-25-05, AA is SUBSCRIPTION (see point#2). You must pay to renew every year, even though if you bought it before the EULA change. I actually paid for mine several months ago. I would of thought twice about paying for a subscription service.
What the heck is going on in sweden???!!
»www.lavasoft.de/agreement.shtml
2. Standard Maintenance and Support.
All updates/upgrades for your purchased edition (regardless of build or version) are free of charge for the year following your purchase of the Software. On each anniversary of your initial purchase, you will be required to pay the yearly maintenance and support fee in accordance with the then applicable price list to continue receiving updates/upgrades for that following year.
--
DC Cruncher for Teams ECO & Starfire * MoveOn * MysteryLake.com hosted by gottadeal.com | |
catseyenu
Ack Pfft
Premium
join:2001-11-17
Fix East | reply to eburger68
Anyone have a copy of Eric's deleted post? | |
mers2
Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
clubs:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to eburger68
Ad-Aware just made their 2nd huge mistake in deleting Eric's post. If this issue isn't clarified and rectified by Lavasoft it's off my machine and will no longer be recommended.
--
"Think for yourself and let others enjoy the privilege of doing so too." - Voltaire | |
Kiwi
Premium
join:2003-05-26
USA
·Comcast
·Aristotle Internet
| said by mers2  :Ad-Aware just made their 2nd huge mistake in deleting Eric's post. If this issue isn't clarified and rectified by Lavasoft it's off my machine and will no longer be recommended. Huh, maybe he resolved an issue! It takes people like Eric to get things done, you know
--
2.66g/533fsb Intel CPU @ 3.48g512meg Twinmos PC3700~466 DDR @ 2.8v -PCpower&Cooling 512.ATI 9500 Pro @ 9700 Pro @1.6v--AMD ASUS A7N8X-E ~2500+ @3200 ATI 9500 Pro, Corsair 512LL.-- Aristotle.net | |
dslanon
@cebridge.net
 from:
catseyenu
whizkid3
| reply to eburger68
I think this is the entire thread from my browser cache:
eburger68
Posted: Feb 13 2005, 07:46 PM
Member
Group: Members
Posts: 71
Member No.: 27323
Joined: 20-November 03
Hi All:
While doing some routine testing I encountered some unexpected behavior from Ad-aware SE 1.05. I installed the latest BearShare, which bundles WhenU's Save program. Strangely, when I scanned my system with Ad-aware using the latest defs (SE1R27 05.02.2005), Ad-aware detected nothing related to WhenU -- not a single file or Registry key, even though Ad-aware was configured to Deep Scan the Registry and scan the C-drive where WhenU was installed.
Curious, I replaced the 02-05-05 defs with an archived copy of the 12-29-04 defs (SE1R24 29.12.2004) -- Ad-aware then detected 49 critical objects, all WhenU files or Registry keys.
My question is: was WhenU removed from Ad-aware's detections database or is there a problem with the detections database? If WhenU was removed from the detections database, why was this not announced? I just looked over the update announcements for all the updates since 12-29-04 and find no mention of WhenU being removed:
02-05-05
»www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···ic=58404
01-25-05
»www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···ic=57706
01-11-05
»www.lavasoftsupport.com/index.ph···ic=56758
I'd appreciate any light someone from Lavasoft could shed on this situation.
Best,
Eric L. Howes
polyglory
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 07:03 AM
Advanced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 324
Joined: 18-October 02
I must admit I would be interested in your reply.
We always used to be kept informed of deletions off the list and the reasons why?
--------------------
' Nec Aspera Terrent '
As you slide down the Banister of Life, may the splinters never point in the wrong direction.
SpyDie
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 08:51 AM
Malware Killer, ex-Admin/Jedi Knight
Group: Members
Posts: 9349
Member No.: 43
Joined: 12-October 02
I would be interested in the reply to this too.
It has also been removed from the TAC:
»www.lavasoftnews.com/ms/searchtac_main.php
»www.lavasoftnews.com/ms/tac_main.shtml
--------------------
Beta. Software undergoes beta testing shortly before it's released. Beta is Latin for 'still doesn't work.'
domageddon
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 11:17 AM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 3
Member No.: 133052
Joined: 9-January 05
I would also be VERY interested to know this as well.
Software can come off of my computer as easily as it goes on. I have a circle of about 100 people whom use Ad-aware (purchased) on my advice.
I would be disappointed if there is any truth to this--though I would not hesitate to move on to something else.
Lavasoft: If this is true then shame on you! If it isn't then apologies to you.
Beechmore
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 11:20 AM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 9
Member No.: 89614
Joined: 11-August 04
Concerned..
We await the answer to Eric's post with great interest (and more than a little trepidation.)
This post has been edited by Beechmore on Feb 14 2005, 11:22 AM
--------------------
Beechmore
Fryertuck
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 11:28 AM
Premium
Group: Lavasoft Super Admin
Posts: 1398
Member No.: 14966
Joined: 5-July 03
This has been reported to the research & Development department, i will get back to you with more information when I have it.
Thanks Chris Fry
www.lavasoft.de
--------------------
"Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity."
"Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot."
"Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot."
NewView
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 11:42 AM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 1
Member No.: 140718
Joined: 14-February 05
I joined this forum today after reading an article about this at broadbandreports.com . . . specifically to follow THIS topic. Whether Ad-aware stays on my machines and the machines under my control will be determined by the answers to Eric's questions.
fcukdat
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 12:50 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Member No.: 138949
Joined: 5-February 05
QUOTE (Fryertuck @ Feb 14 2005, 11:28 AM)
This has been reported to the research & Development department, i will get back to you with more information when I have it.
Thanks Chris Fry
www.lavasoft.de
'research and developement'
as previously stated,WhenU have vanished from your software and from your TAC database,coincidence
try asking your company accountants whether you've had any unusual payments recently
this stinks!
dj_digital1
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 03:21 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 2
Member No.: 74638
Joined: 28-June 04
Hmmmm I wonder what is going on?
Adaware is officially gone....I know what the answer is already. You don't just mysteriously lose a program definition.
Don't even bother contacting R&D, they "Wont Know Anything"....while they are sitting back counting their money.
winchester73
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 03:45 PM
A Spyware Hunter/Killer (Winchester 1873: Gun that Won the West)
Group: Members
Posts: 15052
Member No.: 7916
Joined: 6-March 03
QUOTE
while they are sitting back counting their money
Rther than posting these comments all over, how about showing your solid proof to back up this rather curious statement of yours ...
--------------------
Proud member of ASAP, the Alliance of Security Analysis Professionals
Speak softly, but carry a big Winchester ... Winchester Arms Collectors Association member
fcukdat
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 04:01 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Member No.: 138949
Joined: 5-February 05
curious sentiments these
»netrn.net/spywareblog/archives/2···ool-aid/
»www.spywareinfo.com/articles/spy···pped.php
»ASW Vendors in La-La Land
no smoking gun but a smell of something dirty!
tcp1
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 04:28 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 1
Member No.: 140801
Joined: 14-February 05
And here come the "lavasoft can do no wrong" apologists.
WARNING TO LAVASOFT: Address this issue NOW, or lose all your trust and goodwill in the community. In the past 20 years I have seen so many companies go down roads like these, never to get back to their full position of trust.. Back from the apple II days when Copy II Plus removed parameter sets for certain games when they were paid off!
This is particularly embarassing to Lavasoft since a few other pieces of software are doing the same thing at the exact same time.... Shows they're going with the crowd, instead of thinking independently.
Lavasoft, you have three days. If WhenU detection doesn't return, or you do not post some explanation and workaround -- AdAware is off all of my machines, and will be on my list of spyware removers to avoid..
Wow, I never thought that'd happen... Used to be the gold standard. Sad, really.
temerc
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 04:42 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 4
Member No.: 27459
Joined: 21-November 03
This is a troublesome item indeed. After being a leader in the anit-spyware community, and having the forethought to leave COAST long before the others saw it coming, makes it even more so.
The response from Lavasoft should be an interesting read\explanation.
--------------------
HiJackThis Analyst
Rogue\Approved Security apps
Malware Countermeasures I Use\Tutorials For Them
Spyware Warrior Admin Team\Trusted Warrior Advisor
J-P IT
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 04:48 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 6
Member No.: 87499
Joined: 5-August 04
I hop into the thread. I just posted the news on a few sites when a member gave me the link of this thread.
--------------------
A site about spyware made by a friend and me. Lots of information about spyware, both removing and preventing. Always worth a look!
»www.antispywareoffensief.nl
winchester73
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 04:59 PM
A Spyware Hunter/Killer (Winchester 1873: Gun that Won the West)
Group: Members
Posts: 15052
Member No.: 7916
Joined: 6-March 03
QUOTE
And here come the "lavasoft can do no wrong" apologists.
If you look under my avatar, you'll see I am a mere Member here ... so I hardly qualify as an apologist. I work several different forums, trying to help users regain control of their computers.
Perhaps you meant someone else, in which case please accept my apology.
I was trying to suggest that instead of making wild accusations, dj_digital1 stick with facts, and let people make up their own minds. To suggest that the R&D people are in cahoots with the scumware merchants without any proof sounds a bit dangerous to me.
There are a lot of odd things about this situation ... for example, Aluria is targeting WhenU, yet they are business partners.
--------------------
Proud member of ASAP, the Alliance of Security Analysis Professionals
Speak softly, but carry a big Winchester ... Winchester Arms Collectors Association member
UO_Richard
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 06:31 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 6
Member No.: 89432
Joined: 10-August 04
I've noticed two definition files that have been smaller in size, the first one was on Jan 11th, the second was the latest ref file. I noticed Claria was one of the updated definitions on the Jan 11th update, does Ad-Aware still detect Claria?
I would be interested to know what exactly was removed if anything, since as I understand it, the definition files should be a bit larger, unless they removed some FP's or extra definitions...
fcukdat
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 06:45 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Member No.: 138949
Joined: 5-February 05
whilst we all wait with baited breathe to see where this is going next,
another thought of the day.
with alluria(spy eliminator),CA(pest patrol)and quite possibly lavasoft all beginning to make dubious business decisions(fraternising with the enemy).
where do webroot(spysweeper)stand,which side of the fence are they going to land on?
»spywarewarrior.com/viewtopic.php?t=10386
how a lot of people rejoiced in the meltdown of COAST but why is there now a meltdown on the trustable software side
Dskedar
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 06:58 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 1
Member No.: 85749
Joined: 30-July 04
if lavasoft has really removed whenu from the detection packs...well, lavasoft can say goodbye to their trust in the community, customers and money.
fcukdat
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 08:12 PM
Newbie
Group: Members
Posts: 14
Member No.: 138949
Joined: 5-February 05
judging by the number of hits on this topic,there is a lot of people reading it,
c'mon people don't be shy,lavasoft would appreciate feedback from customers/potential customers alike
kamakazee82
Posted: Feb 14 2005, 08:32 PM
that one ... you know ...
Group: Helpers
Posts: 788
Member No.: 15729
Joined: 16-July 03
... there are a lot of things to consider ... pressure from the malware creaters to "remove their 'good program' from being called scumware" is a very real thing nowadays ... if it's legal action they could very well force a removal as the legal proceedings move on ...
... lavasoft has a list of criteria to be met in order to be classified as bad and added to detections ... if they don't meet all these criteria, well then they don't get on the list ... or they get removed from the list ... a lot of malware is getting around this by modifying their EULA's and TOU's and all that jazz ... which means jack crap other than it gets them out of meeting another criteria to be addedto/kept on detections :\
... this is highly depressing for all of us ... but it's the same story for a lot of anti-spyware programs ... and people always sccream "FRATERNIZING WITH THE ENEMY" before they know ANYTHING about what's going on ...
... all of this is a lot more complex than 99% of us think ... if lavasoft (and others) aren't careful they could be facing a forceful end of the program to help people ...
... i don't know what's going on ... but yes, i do agree that it really REALLY syphons ... HARD ... but lavasoft deserves the benefit of the doubt for thier years of reliable service ... i can assure you this is being looked into and questions ARE beign asked ... again we might not hear anything if this is a legal matter :\
... it's a time to stick together for the malware killers ... not start hacking their hearts out :\ give them time to figure out what's going on ... those working for LS are having to deal with a lot of crap ... and most of the poor folks here (event he ones at the top of the forum) are at the bottom of the totem pole :\
--------------------
"walk blindly to the light and reach out for his hand
don't ask any questions and don't try to understand
open up your mind and then open up your heart
and you will see that you and me aren't very far apart."
-"I Believe", blessid union of souls
When it comes right down to it, the meaning of life is racing around a hairpin turn at 15 mph in a shopping cart with no brakes.
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