calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to slash616
Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't!
Well, the second article is more favorable to Timmins than the first, but in a way it explains even more with this Timmins quote:
"I tried to discourage Adam several times," says Timmins. "He kept saying, 'They won't catch us.' I'm like, 'Whatever. Don't do it here.'"
He was part of the initial intrusion, he knew how that information was being misused, and he did nothing. In many states under traditional law that would satisfy the definition of conspiracy. Timmins got a more favorable plea (misdemeanor instead of felony) because he was less culpable, but under even traditional law, he was culpable.
Let's look at a comparable non-Wi-Fi situation. Paul and Adam are out riding bikes one night and, without realizing it, ride down what they think is an alley but is really a private driveway. Paul leaves his fingerprints several places in grease where they last a long time. They find a drinking fountain and drink some water. Then, they see a bunch of supplies lying around and realize they've found an unintentionally unlocked entrance to a construction company's storage yard. They leave. Six months later, Adam and Brian come back and start helping themselves to stored equipment. Paul checks out their loads and tries to discourage them, but makes no effort to report them or even to anonymously inform the construction company that they're being ripped off through an open gate.
The cops run a stakeout, check the prints, and initially think Paul is in on the theft. Later, after everyone is charged and they learn what else went on, they offer Paul the opportunity to plead to a misdemeanor trespass count as he, while aware of the theft, was not really part of it.
Viewing the above situation, I'd say justice was done in both cases.
Now, I may sound skeptical--but that's partially because I can't really believe that Timmins really mistook Lowe's for Starbucks, in part because Starbucks isn't "next door" to Lowe's in Southfield, it's across Telegraph Avenue, which is a multi lane thoroughfare that resembles a freeway more than it does a street.
Overall, there's just too much "stretching" of the truth going on here. Every time there seems to be something exculpatory for Timmins, he admits at least knowing what was going on.
But, have a chuckle about this over drinks at Ginopolis down at 12 and Middlebelt. I was drinking there before Paul Timmins was born, back in the days when it was a converted gas station before they tore it down and built the "new" one that's there now.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper  :And you still need to read my response yet again--I didn't say you'd be in trouble for "recording" the packets passing your network (in part because if that's all you did, no one would ever know) but that you would be in trouble for BOTH sniffing the data AND using it illegally. Your argument that you're entitled to criminally use data that traverses your open network is as valid as a fast-food manager claiming he has a right to use credit card data that was left behind in a purse in his store. No merit at all. Agreed, and not at all what I meant. First off, the point I was trying to make was that it's trivial for anyone to capture wireless traffic. People who make use of someone's access point with default configurations to get "free wireless" are just as vulnerable as the people they are stealing from. Their traffic (presumably with the individual who started the thread) will be traveling over the air unencrypted.
And yes, it would be illegal if I were to use the sniffed data for illegal purposes. However, that is not my intent.
The reason I sniff the traffic coming through the access point I purposely leave open is to:
1. see who, if anyone, is using my connection
2. what they are using it for.
Someone else noted that they use SSH tunneling -- good for them. I'd prefer more would do it that way, because if they are SSH tunnelling to a cracked server, I might be able to tip off the owner. If they are SSH tunneling into a system they own, good for them -- their source IP address won't be mine, and I still have the SSH server's IP address incase I want to take further legal action.
The point is, The moment someone commits a crime using my internet connection through my wireless network, I have evidence. Do I honestly care if someone uses the AP to check their e-mail while in the neighborhood? Not really. But, regardless of the leecher's intent, it's still technically breaking the law.
said by calvoiper :Face it--your "friend" Paul Timmins was arrested and charged because the cops thought (and apparently still think) he was in cahoots with hackers who wrote and used a program to steal credit card data--not because he "accidentally" stumbled onto a Lowes AP next to Starbucks. [...] Well, gee, according to the article you linked to, your friend Paul Timmins is charged because he supplied some of the Wi-Fi gear AND KNEW OF THE INTENDED CRIMINAL ACT. This was the article I intended to link to:
»www.securityfocus.com/news/9281
Believe what you want, but I know much more about what happened than you do, and Paul most certainly did not have anything to do with that crime. The only reason he was charged was because he was originally misidentified due to piss-poor surveillance by the FBI. I only brought it up because the charge he did plead guilty to did set a legal precedent. |
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aitech
Guru. Kneel
join:2000-12-19
Boston, MA
clubs: 
| reply to slash616
I'm not even going to touch the part about braking the law, I have better things to do.
But the packet logging; log all you want, when I'm using open AP's of any sort, including yours, every byte I send through it will be end-end blowfish 448 encrypted SSH tunnel. Web, mail, even DNS queries.
So, thanks for keeping your AP open for me, and enjoy all the extra log overhead the encrypted tunnel provides.  |
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wheresthedamnoffswit
@optonline.net
| reply to SSX4life
personally, this is the exact reason why I don't own and wouldn't buy a wireless router... i dont' really mind people sharing it (not hogging, mind you) while I'm aware of it.. but I want an OFF switch that I know for certain that they are off my network when I don't want them there... there is no "hardwired" off switch for the wireless transmission (wifi) access. Until this featur becomes reality rather than wishful thinking.. Wifi will remain an unsecured haven for freeloaders.. it would be nice to be able to customize your own encryption using pgp authentication and 256bit encryption to stop prying eyes and freeloaders once and for all.. the technology needs an evolution or two before it gets really secure and a reasonable alternative to copper/fiber |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to slash616
Well, gee, according to the article you linked to, your friend Paul Timmins is charged because he supplied some of the Wi-Fi gear AND KNEW OF THE INTENDED CRIMINAL ACT.
In any event, read my comment again. I said "if you are deliberately leaving your AP open for others to use...." Lowes wasn't deliberately leaving their AP open.
As for legal precedents, the legal field always draws precedents from what has gone before. If you invite people on your property, or build sidewalks so they'll come on your property, they aren't trespassers.
If you leave your front yard unfenced and someone strolls over and sits down and starts talking on their cellphone, they aren't trespassing until they receive notice you don't want them there and they refuse to leave.
And you still need to read my response yet again--I didn't say you'd be in trouble for "recording" the packets passing your network (in part because if that's all you did, no one would ever know) but that you would be in trouble for BOTH sniffing the data AND using it illegally. Your argument that you're entitled to criminally use data that traverses your open network is as valid as a fast-food manager claiming he has a right to use credit card data that was left behind in a purse in his store. No merit at all.
Face it--your "friend" Paul Timmins was arrested and charged because the cops thought (and apparently still think) he was in cahoots with hackers who wrote and used a program to steal credit card data--not because he "accidentally" stumbled onto a Lowes AP next to Starbucks. The weakness of your argument is highlighted by the differences from the article you linked to at:
»www.securityfocus.com/news/8835
Frankly, I'm tired of people getting caught doing bad things and then trying to fault the law by claiming they were innocent.
BTW, if you come into my unfenced front yard or store and have the intent to commit a criminal act (such as window peeping, shoplifting, or burglary) they you ARE a trespasser--reasonable consent is not presumed to have been given to those with criminal intent.
See? While Wi-Fi may not yet have been covered in great detail in the law, your not-very-clever excuses and evasions are no different than those used by common criminals for ages--and the courts won't be spending huge amounts of time believing them, either.
Finally, think what your Mother would say. She would no more approve you (or Paul) accompanying guys probing an AP for credit card theft and then giving them Wi-Fi equipment than she would approve you accompanying guys scoping out a burglary and then giving them gloves. The law doesn't either. You may be as fascinated with hackers as some folks are with gangsters, but when you cross the line and start assisting them, you become a crook. Keep your nose clean and hang out with the right people, slash.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| reply to calvoiper
Show me a legal precedent that supports this. One of my best friends (Paul Timmins) was charged with a federal misdemeanor for connecting to an access point he mistakened for a starbucks hotspot for checking his e-mail. (Lowes was next door to the starbucks).
If you trespass on my property, I have every right to record you, just because I don't put up "no trespassing" signs does not suggest I allow trespassing on my property. |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to Belch
said by Belch:
Just curious, but if I wanted to, could I packet sniff the stuff war drivers are sending through my access point and read their email?
Of course, I guess it might be considered an illegal wire tap, but it might also be argued that it's legal as it's my network being used and as an intruder, you don't have any expectation of privacy.
Let's say you ran a motel, and had a slot marked "MAIL" (not "US MAIL") at the front desk. Users would have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the mail they deposited there, just as users of your deliberately open hotspot have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their mail.
The key factor is once you deliberately leave it open, you are inviting others to use it. And if you are sniffing, it's very hard to say you aren't deliberately leaving it open....
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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wings10
I Am Legend
Premium
join:2004-06-09
South Elgin, IL | reply to SSX4life
So the air waves are free? I will remember that when I hack a DISH or DriecTV box and get illegal channels I did not subscribe to. |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to slash616
...as if you aren't breaking the law, sniffing data not meant for you and then using it illegally?
BTW, if you are deliberately leaving your AP open for others to use, you have legally given your consent to them to use it. Your claim of "trespassing" will be as invalid as the guy who builds a sidewalk to his front door and then tries to prosecute (or shoot) anyone who uses it.
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Belch
Slash I'm sending fricking email, I'm not intruding either. Last time I checked internet waves are just like radio waves, tv waves etc. Once it's off your property it's public domain. If you broadcast TV waves I can tune into it and watch it, if you did it with radio I could listen. If you broadcast internet I can access the web... how is that any different? Also you talk of jailtime like I'm robbing a bank.... I think you are taking this way too seriously.
But then again I have been wrong before, if it's illegal I'll still take my chances, it's only @#$#@# email afterall not bit torrent or any possible copyright infringement issues.
You can't mix apples with oranges. You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.
--SSX--
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New PC Setup
Asus A8V rev 2.0
AMD Athlon 64 socket 939 3200+ 90nm
Radeon 9800 Pro
2 X 36.5 gig Western Digital Raptors in Raid - 0
1 gig OCZ 3500 memory
Anime-4ever.org |
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Belch
@golden.net
| reply to SSX4life
Just curious, but if I wanted to, could I packet sniff the stuff war drivers are sending through my access point and read their email?
Of course, I guess it might be considered an illegal wire tap, but it might also be argued that it's legal as it's my network being used and as an intruder, you don't have any expectation of privacy. |
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slash616
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Holland, MI
| reply to SSX4life
You are breaking the law. Not to mention that there are individuals like myself intentionally setup WAP's with default information and sniff and log every packet that leeches like yourself send over their networks. Go ahead and take your chances. Either way, the owner of the access point is given the option of going to the authorities, or using the newly acquired logins and passwords to counter an attack. Either way, it's quite an unpleasant experience. Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, Do you? |
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removed
Crisis Management Squad
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
clubs:
| reply to jameskris
You can put the router in "Ad Hoc" mode and have it connect to another wireless network to serve as an additional router - and that's where your PC gets access.
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AIM | irc.removed.us - #dslr |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| reply to SSX4life
(corporate) History repating
This sounds like the same thing that happened to the airline industry. People were paying $1000s of dollars for "first class" tickets, business travelers got gouged for last-minute travel, and passengers had to go through the painful routing of the hub-and-spoke system to get to their destinations.
So Southwest Air comes along and figures out that people just want to get from point a to point b quickly, cheaply, and with minimal hassle. The legacy carriers have been playing catch-up ever since.
Now ISPs are scared to death that if they offer cut-rate broadband, they'll lose their customer base. You watch and see how long it is before they're playing catch-up too... |
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jameskris
join:2005-01-13
Sayre, OK
| reply to SSX4life
Re: I love to war-drive! who doesn't!
So does one need a wireless network card to try to find an open connection, or can I use my wireless router at home to see if there is a connection overlapping my house. I currently have a wireless router, but only have one computer hooked up to it right now. |
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removed
Crisis Management Squad
Premium,VIP
join:2002-02-08
Houston, TX
clubs:
| reply to SSX4life
Houston has a lot of them - but a fair amount are encrypted.
I am in the middle of moving, and my DSL is to be cut off and moved any day now. I will still have 'net access once SBC moves the DSL - my neighbor has an open AP that is connected to his RoadRunner cable modem. Woot - no dialup!
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AIM | irc.removed.us - #dslr |
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SSX4life
Premium
join:2004-02-13
·RoadRunner Cable
| I love to war-drive, it's free #1 and #2 I get good speed for when I need to check my mail, surf DSLR, and mabie even game a little bit if I get the chance 
I see unsecure weps as a simple means of checking your mail and hopping on the internet for a fw minuites. It's so common in many places, (not to mention a plague across surburbia) that I can have 6 to 10 open acces points in small towns under 10K people in some areas.
I don't see myself stopping checking my mail on buisness trips or on vacation for free any time soon.
--SSX--
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New PC Setup
Asus A8V rev 2.0
AMD Athlon 64 socket 939 3200+ 90nm
Radeon 9800 Pro
2 X 36.5 gig Western Digital Raptors in Raid - 0
1 gig OCZ 3500 memory
Anime-4ever.org |
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