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eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28
4 edits | Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed Hi All:
Pest Patrol users should be aware that all of Claria's products -- including Dashbar, Date Manager, Gator/GAIN, GotSmiley, Precision Time -- have been temporarily removed from Pest Patrol's detections. This change is announced on CA's "Vendor Appeals" page:
»www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/pest···?q=67945
As that page explains,
said by CA:
From time to time, Computer Associates receives requests from vendors whose products are detected by eTrust PestPatrol Anti-Spyware to stop detecting their products. When this happens, CA opens a Vendor Appeal.
The Vendor Appeals Process is designed to ensure the highest level of accuracy and quality in eTrust PestPatrol Anti-Spyware products. The first step of the Vendor Appeals process is to temporarily remove the product in question for the eTrust PestPatrol database, as well as the Spyware Encyclopedia, pending further evaluation. An evaluation of the product is then conducted using the eTrust PestPatrol Spyware Scorecard, a behavior-based list of criteria that defines what eTrust PestPatrol AntiSpyware products will detect, as well as the eTrust PestPatrol Anti-Spyware User Permission Requirements. A written report is provided to the vendor when the evaluation is complete. If the evaluation shows that the product continues to meet one or more of the criteria listed on the eTrust PestPatrol Spyware Scorecard, the product will be added back to the database and eTrust PestPatrol products will resume detection of it. It will also be added back to the Spyware Encyclopedia. In the event that the product does not meet any of the criteria on the eTrust PestPatrol Spyware Scorecard, the product will be permanently removed from both the eTrust PestPatrol database and the Spyware Encyclopedia. Products which have been temporarily removed from the database and the Spyware Encyclopedia will be listed on this page each week.
On March 25, CA posted a notice to that page about Claria:
said by CA:
March 25, 2005:
REMOVED: Gator/GAIN/Claria: all known products found in our database under the names Gator, GAIN, Claria or Gator/GAIN/Claria For those who wish to remove Gator/Gain/Claria while it is undergoing appeal, Manual Removal Instructions are available.
Strangely, this removal is not announced on CA's "New & Improved Pest Detections" page, which appears to be out of date ("Changes for version: 05031815"):
»research.pestpatrol.com/News/New···ions.asp
That page lists "Gator/GAIN/Claria" only as "Modified," not "Removed," nor does it mention the full range of Claria's products.
Still more oddly, that page does list "Whenu.ClockSync" as having been removed, though CA's "Spyware Information Center" home page lists "WhenU.Desktop Toolbar" as "newly discovered" -- see:
»www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/pest/
A quick check of CA's information pages for both Claria and WhenU products reveals most of them (though not all) to be blank -- devoid of the usual information contained in CA's write-ups of targeted programs -- see CA's "Pest Encyclopedia":
»research.pestpatrol.com/search/browse.aspx
or »www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/pest/browse.aspx
Finally, a test with Pest Patrol 5 and KaZaA, which installs Claria's software (among several other adware programs), does indeed confirm that Pest Patrol 5 with the latest definitions does not detect and remove Claria's software, though as the second screenshot above illustrates, it still detects a few stray Claria Registry keys as "AdDestroyer" (an unrelated product from VirtualBouncer).
CA's "Vendor Appeals" page does contain a link to "Manual Removal Instructions," but clicking on that link only takes you back to CA's Spyware Information Center, which informs users that the "most rapidly spreading spyware" currently is Grokster:
»www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/pest···id=64477
As that page notes, Grokster (like KaZaA) installs numerous adware products, including Claria's (Gator). But of course Claria has been temporarily removed from Pest Patrol's detections.
Although Pest Patrol was wise to include a notice of some sort to its users on the "Vendor Appeals" page, many users simply won't know to look there. Thus, I think CA still has a ways to go in creating policies and procedures to notify its users of routine removals of products that it must know its users will be concerned about.
Best,
Eric L. Howes | |
|  
dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed GEEZ! CA sure is screwing PestPatrol up, what a waste.  | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | Why dont these companies realize they serve the consumer, not the not malware companies. I guess its time to look for an alternative, i guess lavasoft is out too. Do the malware companies pay them to make there product or do consumers. | |
| | | 
SnowyOne
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed said by LoPhatPhuud  :What bothers me is that if a Vendor appeals they remove the detection pending the resolution of the appeal. Why not leave it in instead? I'm all for 'innocent until proven guilty', but even humans don't always get out of jail pending investigation without some form of bail (penalty as it applies to software).
I don't believe remaining in software jail is contrary to good management.
CA may have learned something from the LS debacle, but not enough of the lesson to have benefitted from it. If it's to be believed, even LS has a better policy (whatever it means) than CA's de-list them all policy.
»Re: ASW Vendors in La-La Land | |
| | TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| I couldn't agree more.
I can already hear them beating feet to CA R&D over at New.Net, WhenU, 180Solutions, ISearch\IDownload, NaviSearch, CashBack, WindowsAd Service, Searchmaid, HotOffers, SlimShield, EliteToolbar, StopGuard, Guardbar, ClickSpring, CasinoPalazzo, Media Motor, ISTsvc, iWon, eXact Advertising, Ibis toolbar, and any other ,Potentially Offensive System slower on the market, asking for 'evaluation' so they too, can go undetected by CA\PP.
Just when you think it can't get much worse.
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!!»temerc.com/ | |
| | | Reverend Ike
Premium
join:2001-08-24
Sacramento, CA
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed said by LoPhatPhuud :What bothers me is that if a Vendor appeals they remove the detection pending the resolution of the appeal. Why not leave it in instead? I can see it now; all major spyware/malware manufacturer's appeal to CA and soon PestPatrol will detect nothing! said by mers2 :Between the false positives and CA removing definitions pending a review this software is less then worthless as it provides the user with an extremely false sense of security. I will discourage people from trying/buying it. There are more trustworthy programs out there to recommend. I could not have said it better.
There is no justification for removing detection of previously indisputable adware or spyware during a "review" process. And for a product whose detections are rampant with false positives to decide to "exclude first" is rather laughable ...  | |
| 
rogue_
I Have A Secret Window
Premium
join:2001-10-17
Lake Hiawatha, NJ
1 edit | When the almighty dollar speaks av vendors listen?
Probably not the case.
edit: typo | |
| | 
madylarian
The curmudgeonly
Premium
join:2002-01-03
Parkville, MD
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed said by rogue_ :When the almighty dollar speaks av vendors listen? When threatened with long and potentially VERY expensive lawsuits, yes, they do. This all makes Microsoft's Antispyware look better and better, if only because no vendor has enough money to threaten Microsoft.
mady
--
Honi soit qui mal y pense | |
| | | 
R2
R Not
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-18
Long Beach, CA
clubs:
1 edit | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed said by madylarian :said by rogue_ :When the almighty dollar speaks av vendors listen? When threatened with long and potentially VERY expensive lawsuits, yes, they do. This all makes Microsoft's Antispyware look better and better, if only because no vendor has enough money to threaten Microsoft. mady We can take this one step further.  What would you do if you were Microsoft and wanted to take over the Anti-Spyware market? Well, you have a lot of money and you can do almost anything you want. How about discrediting the competition? Especially if the competition is so eager to go along with the scam: "What? You'll pay us how much to remove your program from detection list? Where do we sign?"
Just spreading love, joy, and paranoia.  | |
| | | | theeinstein
Premium
join:2003-07-31
Fernandina Beach, FL | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed Sadly all about the money...:(
or is it really the consumers are the ones who are to stupid to demand better....and of course Lazy how could I forget!! | |
| 
Khaine
join:2003-03-03
Australia
| Atleast CA disclose this information to the public, while I would rather see the products kept in the definitions until after the outcome of the review, I welcome CA's honestly and integrity in informing the general public about why they were removed | |
| | 
fatdcuk
Premium
join:2005-02-20
England
|  Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed
quote:
Atleast CA disclose this information to the public, while I would rather see the products kept in the definitions until after the outcome of the review, I welcome CA's honestly and integrity in informing the general public about why they were removed
im sure CA have learn't by lavasoft's debacle with WhenU that its better to be honest and open with your customer's about their product alterations.
having said that,lavasoft were shamed into bringing WhenU back into their detections by public demand/outrage.
i would suggest everyone contact CA before posting simmilar shaming articles around these community forum's in order to remind CA(as with lavasoft) who their customer's are and what they pay their $$'s for.
just an idea,it worked before;) | |
| | | 
mers2
Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
clubs:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
1 edit | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed The fact that they willingly remove a product from detection before verifying that the product is no longer spyware is just plain wrong. Even if it is only for two weeks while they review it. If it still meets the CA spyware criteria the vendor can re-apply in 90 days and the whole process begins again. I would never trust a product with this set up in place.
--
God put me on this Earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now, I am so far behind I will never die.
| |
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SnowyOne
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
1 edit | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed On the positive side, it should give them something to do.
It's not like they were spending their time weeding out the false positives in their definitions. | |
| | | | canuk1
join:2005-03-03
Windsor, ON | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed I find it quite telling that the same outrage that went on and on here toward Lavasoft/AdAware is not showing over this.
I have to wonder, is there a double standard at work? | |
| | | | |
mers2
Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-20
USA
clubs:
·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed said by canuk1 :I find it quite telling that the same outrage that went on and on here toward Lavasoft/AdAware is not showing over this. I have to wonder, is there a double standard at work? I don't think it's a double standard. I think it's a matter of Ad-Aware having a much larger customer base then Pest Patrol. Regardless of whether one has the program or not, the outrage should be there and the community needs to let the anti-spyware comapanies know that giving in to the malware companies will not be tolerated if they want to stay in business.
--
God put me on this Earth to accomplish a certain number of things. Right now, I am so far behind I will never die. | |
| | | | | | 
Nancymca
Security Goddess, retired.
Premium
join:2001-09-30
Voorheesville, NY
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed It's also an issue of how creative they are willing to be (or *not*, so far....). We had a similar problem several years back when the author of Netbus sold it to a company that wanted to market it as a remote networking tool. We compromised with their wishes (legit) and the reality of the millions of copies out in the wild. There still is an option in BOClean to "NOT detect the Netbus trojan". Check the configuration screen on your BOClean, or the website:
»www.nsclean.com/supboc.html
So, I see no reason why any anti-trojan/spyware/malware company sees fit to not cover known malware, especially when compromises such as we made cover the users who wish to use such as tools. In 4 years of covering spyware we haven't deleted one of them from the database.
--
Anticookie software invented here.
Antitrojan software perfected here.
www.nsclean.com | |
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fatdcuk
Premium
join:2005-02-20
England
| quote:
Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed
I find it quite telling that the same outrage that went on and on here toward Lavasoft/AdAware is not showing over this.
I have to wonder, is there a double standard at work?
1) they've told their customer's upfront in an open and honest manner unlike Lavasoft+WhenU
however
i hope they get the same treatment as Lavasoft and are shamed into changing their policy as with Lavasoft for the benefit of all their paying customer's. | |
| | | | | 
spy1
Welcome to Amerika
Premium
join:2002-06-24
Charlotte, NC
| said by canuk1 :I find it quite telling that the same outrage that went on and on here toward Lavasoft/AdAware is not showing over this. I have to wonder, is there a double standard at work? I agree with mers2 - it's more a matter of the customer-base size than a double-standard of any kind - also, we're only two or three days into this since it was first posted here.
You also have to realize that a lot of people turned their backs on PestPatrol a long time ago due to the agonizingly frequent F/P issues, the closing of their forums (so people couldn't complain publicly in a centralized place about the many real issues with the program).
IOW, I'd have never recommended PP to my worst enemy to start with, so I'm certainly not going to get upset if they erode whatever their remaining customer-base is now through shooting themselves in the foot like this.
It's just another example of stupidity and short-sightedness on the company level. They could have announced openly (in a place on the website where you didn't have to hunt for it) that they were going to review their stance on - whatever - detection first before pulling the detections.
That would have given everyone time to present their views, additional information as to why it should remain on the list (if any), etc. If they would simply have done that, they'd have given themselves the chance to see what kind of backlash they were going to suffer from the Internet community and their customers - plus they'd have had a chance to (a) show that they were giving - whatever - company a fair shake (useful litigation-wise) before making their decision and (b) they'd have been showing that they cared what their customers (you know - the ones who are PAYING FOR THEIR FRIGGING PROGRAM TO START WITH) think!.
Returning to the "I'm not upset about this." mindset (  ) - it's all really probably a moot issue anyway - I notice that Netfixer posted a notice that CA was putting out a " new version offers significant enhancements to help protect your PC from unauthorized access, information theft and diminished system performance." and that "support for older versions will be discontinued in the future."
That should pretty much kill the program all by itself, so why get upset about dropped detections due to cowardice in the meantime? Pete
--
Compaq Presario 7110US, 1.3GHz ThunderBird, 1GB RAM, 160GB HD, WinXP Pro w/SP2, TDS-3, WormGuard, Port Explorer v2.000, Process Guard v.3.150, The Cleaner Pro v.4.1 b.4252, TrojanHunter v.4.1 Build 903, NOD32, XP ICF, ALL javacool programs, SBS&D, SPYCOP | |
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stessylt
@co.u
 from:
dadkins
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed Hey Pete
You are displaying an opinion..:D:D:p:p:o
You know, the sort of thing that you don't have to have about everything (as per the famous (??) post on the LS forums a while ago.)
You'll be upsetting somebody.. | |
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
1 edit | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed Nothing wrong with having an opinion, That post was a joke! My "opinion" is that I have the right to an opinion... we *ALL* do!
DHAO My A**!
| |
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captnhook
join:2001-02-20
NY
| said by SnowyOne :On the positive side, it should give them something to do. It's not like they were spending their time weeding out the false positives in their definitions. ;)
LOL so true.. so true | |
| |
fatdcuk
Premium
join:2005-02-20
England
| quote:
reply to eburger68
Hi All:
Two quick updates to this story.
First, as Karl Bode noted in his news story, CA has now corrected the link to the uninstall info:
»www3.ca.com/content/default.aspx?CID=6..
Second, CA's vendor appeals process is explained in more detail on this page:
eTrust PestPatrol Vendor Appeal Process
»www3.ca.com/Content/default.aspx?CID=6..
Best,
Eric L. Howes
since its obvious to all that the vendor appeal will now render the tool pest patrol ineffectual for periods of time,since it is open to exploitation by any vendor of ****ware dose this tool still merit the label of 'trusted application' by your goodself ? | |
| | TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| The good thing I see, as opposed to the Lavasoft WhenU debacle is they are making an effort to disclose to the users. Not a great effort, mind you, but an effort.
If I were a paying customer, or an IT professional I would want something, like say a mass email to let me know what they were contemplating to give me a heads up.
That aside, I completely disagree with the idea of pulling the defs out while they are 'reevaluated' or whatever it is they want to call it.
The primary problem being Claria has foisted its crap upon millions and millions of users, and most, by this survey here:
»pcpitstop.com/gator/Survey.asp
said they didn't want it. So what if they submit a 'clean version' of their newly improved load of crap?
At the very least, an extended waiting period of time should be implemented, to assure they have actually abided by their claim, with monitoring done by the users, and the feedback given to PP\CA, and until then, keep them in the defs.
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!!»temerc.com/ | |
| |
dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed If I may add to TeMerc's post... Leave the current definitions of the older crap and if found clean, not detect/remove the new BS. That older crap will be around for a while, and even if Gator/Claria does cleanup the "new and improved" version, that old s*** will still infect people's systems. | |
| 
salzan
Experienced Optimist
Premium
join:2004-01-08
WA State
| Even if they do decide Claria is OK now, what about all the versions that are in the wild and will continue to be in the wild for an unknown time? This was also mentioned repeatedly in the Ad-Aware/WhenU debacle. If Claria has truly "cleaned up their act", why don't they just rename their new product and the files and folders it might/would install? Wouldn't that avoid detection?
Personally, I don't use this product, but I find this trend very disturbing and removing a formerly known threat while it's being reviewed only serves to expose thousands of Pest Patrol users to Claria's software. Maybe that's all they really want?
Seems like more smoke and mirrors to me.  | |
| BSofDeath
join:2004-08-27
Canada
| ...and the users get the shaft again. I'm getting tired of this ongoing spyware battle. Anyone else?
Hmm... more like the front-line techies like us who are getting the shaft.
We can't MAKE users NOT use their computers (and thus get spyware), but it's up to us to fix them or provide the TOOLS to fix them (which is hard enough since no one spyware removal program works 100%). Couple that with a user base who "...don't give a #$%& about this computer $&$%", and ya wonder why techies/admins get fed up.
Then the tools themselves get sabotaged? Ugh. Who do you trust? It's clear that past performance can't justify trust anymore, if spyware removal authors can turn about-face, take some cash from the 'baddies', and betray us whenever they want.
BlueScreenOfDeath
I think I'm becoming a casualty of the war. | |
| |
SnowyOne
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
·RoadRunner Cable
·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed It almost sounds like an over dependence on automated scanners. At the professional level I'd think any exorcism would include a manual check of the registry run values etc.. which would show what's running, starting, where & when etc...
Shorter version, they should make cleaning faster, but they shouldn't replace or be a substitute for a tech's skill. | |
| BSofDeath
join:2004-08-27
Canada
| You're right, there. That'd be ideal. But with there being hundreds of spyware programs trying to infect machines, and more and more people getting computers (what, with prices falling in both hardware and broadband), there aren't enough techies around to do everything manually. We HAVE to depend on automated scanners. Else it'd take 10x the time to fix one machine, since Windows has so many vectors for intrusion.
And have you tried to educate users? They'll do whatever they "damn well please" anyway (quote from one of my users).
But tomorrow's another day. | |
| |
SnowyOne
Premium
join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI | Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed As a hobbyist, I'll always appreciate the Pro's view. | |
|
R2
R Not
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-18
Long Beach, CA
clubs:
| Hmmm... Interesting.
What should a company do that previously made a "malware" or "spyware" ridden piece of software, but now wants to come clean? It is enough to simply clean up their act and then petition the AS vendors to remove them from their lists?
I would have to say that that is BS -- complete and total. If you previously made a "bad" program and you now want to change your image, you need to change the program as well. That means changing the file names, changing the registered Class ID numbers, changing all the registry entries. You can keep the name similar -- "Gator2" for example -- but you are going to have to change the name if you want to change your image.
Therefore, if the company was serious about revamping itself, the "clean" program would NOT be detected by AS programs -- because those programs rely on finding specific files or specific registry entries. If the company did not bother to modify these aspects of the program, then the company is NOT serious!
They realize that even if the NEW, improved version is clean, the older versions still exist in the wild. And these older programs still have malware on them.
There should NEVER be a program that is known to contain spyware to be REMOVED from a definition list. If the company is serious about cleaning themselves up they would have NO problem modifying file names and Class ID number.
There should be no reason for Pest Patrol -- or any other vendor -- to change their mind about a program that is know to be bad. | |
| | | | 
TheJoker
Premium,VIP,MVM
join:2001-04-26
Alexandria, VA
| said by R2 :What should a company do that previously made a "malware" or "spyware" ridden piece of software, but now wants to come clean? It is enough to simply clean up their act and then petition the AS vendors to remove them from their lists? I would have to say that that is BS -- complete and total. If you previously made a "bad" program and you now want to change your image, you need to change the program as well. That means changing the file names, changing the registered Class ID numbers, changing all the registry entries. You can keep the name similar -- "Gator2" for example -- but you are going to have to change the name if you want to change your image. Absolutely. Changing how a program is installed (possibly without consent), or what it does, doesn't automatically eliminate all the copies that are already out there. If you pull the definitions from spyware/adware scanners, or no longer remove it manually because it is no longer deemed "bad", that potentially leaves an installed base out there from when it was considered malware.
--
TheJoker | |
| twig49
join:2004-10-28
Plainview, TX | Wait a sec... Has Ad-Aware fallen to this as well? Should I remove it? If so, what do you guys recommend as an alternative? | |
| |
fatdcuk
Premium
join:2005-02-20
England
| Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed  no don't remove ad aware,its still one of the better software's about even thou lavasoft have been caught humping the hound recently as well but there's no reason to remove their software.
are you only using the one anti-spyware software ?
if you are,i suggest reading the following article
»windowssecrets.com/050127/#story1
HTH:)
back on topic,totally agreed with R2,someone need's to spell this out in plain english to the bot killer vendor's;) | |
| 
Martinus
Premium
join:2001-08-06
EU
| I think Nancymca has a point. Why not let end users choose whether they want to block or not an app which has had a suspect track?
--
From the GSV "Ethics Gradient" | |
| TeMerc
join:2004-01-22
Phoenix, AZ
| Here is some info from CA\PP:
PestPatrol, which is marketed by Computer Associates International Inc., uses a strict, 21-point Spyware Scorecard to determine whether to flag a piece of software as a privacy or security threat.
"We use a behavior-based list of criteria, and we make that list public. If your software meets any of the criteria, you're classified as spyware in our database," said Tori Case, director of security management at eTrust PestPatrol.
That approach, Case argued, sets up a structure for a legitimate adware vendor with good intentions to "clean up their act" in an open, transparent way.
In stark contrast to the PestPatrol approach, anti-spyware players such as Webroot Software Inc., Sunbelt Software and newcomer Microsoft Corp. deliberately avoid limiting or restricting the definition criteria.
"The adware vendors want you to use strict definitions so they can play games and work around those lists. That's why PestPatrol is having problems with delisting and relisting," said Eric Howes, an anti-spyware advocate who provides consulting services for Sunbelt. "The minute you set up these definition lists, you are setting yourself up for cat-and-mouse games."
"A better approach is to define a set of objectionable practices. Many people want to focus on the quality and functionality of the software, but that doesn't work because there's a lot of deceptive intent [from adware vendors]," Howes said in an interview with eWEEK.com.
"You have to focus on the business practices and outline a list of objectionable behavior. Yes, it can be subjective, but that's the only way it works in the interest of the consumer," Howes said.
Next page:
PestPatrol's Tori Case defended the company's use of a rigid definition formula, which is revisited and updated to accommodate new threats.
"We revisit the scorecard every 90 days to make modifications to reflect the changing nature of the spyware market. That's how we address the issues of a company playing games. It's a rapidly evolving world out there, and we have systems in place to deal with it," Case said.
She said the vast majority of vendor appeals do not result in big changes to the PestPatrol product, and even when detections are removed, old versions of the adware program are still detected and deleted.
"We're very committed to the approach we've taken with the scorecard. That's not going to change anytime in the future," Case added.
PestPatrol's Case said she agrees. "Hindsight is 20-20 for all of us. Some big mistakes were made in COAST that we can all learn from. Although there is a place for certification [of adware applications], it should not be within an anti-spyware group. We need to build a wall to avoid those conflict-of-interest issues."
Full read:
»www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1781753,00.asp
--
Remember............You can NEVER be OVERPROTECTED!!»temerc.com/ | |
| | | | (topic locked) | |
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Re: Pest Patrol: Claria Temporarily Removed