Murray3
join:2001-03-06
Texas
| reply to Sarah
Re: A What...?
said by Sarah  :said by Murray3 :said by Asmodeus :Listen, the ability to access the internet regardless of method is a LUXURY!!! period... Yup. I don't see how it could possibly be deemed a Utility. I could survive without Broadband... but would not fair so good without water, electricity, etc. How exactly does electricity keep you alive? Well, I wasn't meaning to infer that I couldn't live without electricity. I was meaning to infer that it would be easy to go without broadband, but would not be so easy without electricity (would certainly make my life more uncomfortable without electricity but I wouldn't notice a difference without broadband).
And yes, others who have mentioned that electricity and phones used to be a luxury (incidentally, I still think a phone is a luxury item), are correct when they said that and that now those things are generally deemed 'utilities'.
But I thought we were discussing now and not 15 years from now. I say this without the intention of splitting hairs. When fiber does fuel my home and add many more benefits than it does right now, then I would probably change my opinion. All the while broadband's primary residential use is to allow Web, VoIP and TV services, I stick to my guns by thinking of it as a luxury rather than a necessary utility.
I guess I'm thinking of it in terms of necessity.
There's probably no right or wrong with this, as there seems to be quite a difference of opinion between several of us. Ah well, makes for lively discussion.  |
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Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| reply to Captain Obvious
Obviously I'm not stating my point very well.
The critical, "can't live without them," status of these utilities did not exist at some point in the not so distant past. They were just as novel as broadband is today. Over time they have developed into critical services. Broadband access has as much potential to improve the quality of life, for individuals as well as whole communities, as any other public utility. To think otherwise is just short-sighted. |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Captain Obvious
said by Captain Obvious:
Per your example of people dropping their POTS lines for VoIP - wouldn't that begin to make broadband a utility? I didn't mention VoIP anywhere in my post. I was referring to people ditching POTS lines in favor of wireless phones.
In addition, as I mentioned earlier, I believe it's specious reasoning to consider a POTS line a utility for the reasons mentioned, I simply accept that it's an argument made to classify such service as necessary. |
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Captain Obvious
| reply to Talis
I believe the point is that for most of the US, these services are no longer optional, and thus, a hard requirement.
Yes, strictly speaking you are correct - you can live in the woods with little more than a sharp stick and some animal skins, but the vast majority of Americans couldn't - they would just die if stuck in the woods without.
So, whether you like it or not, gas, electric, coal or fuel oil in parts, water, and sewer are critical services, without which a lot of people would die. That makes them utilities. |
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Captain Obvious
|  reply to N3OGH
Per your example of people dropping their POTS lines for VoIP - wouldn't that begin to make broadband a utility? After all, if you depend wholly on your VoIP phone for connectivity, then you could potentially die if the connection goes down and you have a life-threatening emergency.
Personally, I don't feel that POTS *OR* broadband should be considered utilities in the same way that gas, electric and water are. The latter provide requirements for living (i.e., the ability to stay warm in the winter and to cook food) The former are simply means to communicate more easily.
However, following the reasoning of POTS being a useful means of getting help in an emergency, it really isn't that far of a leap to make broadband a utility as well. |
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Boogeyman
Drive it like you stole it
Premium
join:2002-12-17
Huntsville, AL
| reply to N3OGH
Before we had cable tv, we used our DSL to stream weather info and storm warnings. Of course, before we had DSL we used dial up for that, but that was back in 99 before most weather sites became so bloated with excess crap. Anyway, the point is that without that, we would never have known there was a hurricane coming untill it hit.
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"There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something they made up to scare kids, like the Boogeyman or Michael Jackson." - Bart Simpson |
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lyls
@tele.dk
| reply to N3OGH
drowning in sewage ? btw im sure theres people who have lived without a telephone for a very long time and i think the internet already has become quite popular and useful and it'll only become more essential to our lives..... of course not in a "get it or die" kind of way |
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jesseb_66
join:2002-12-06
Tucson, AZ
| reply to IamZed
said by IamZed :Exactly. Electricity was a luxury once. A phone was a luxury once. Running water was a luxury once. People who think fiber is a luxury can’t see past tomorrow, and shouldn't’t be allowed to plan it. I like that. |
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john262
join:2003-09-26
Elko, NV | reply to Murray3
Agreed. I had dialup for several years before getting DSL and at the time I got along with it just fine. It's not that I would want to go back to it now, but it definitely is just a luxury. |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| reply to N3OGH
This is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand... but here you go, enjoy reading: »www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/···a73.html
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs | reply to Sarah
You might get that heater to fire off, but how are you going to move the heat through your house?
Hot air needs an electric blower, baseboard heat needs a circulation pump, both are run by electricity.... |
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Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Brooklyn, NY
 ·Packet8
| reply to IamZed
said by IamZed :Exactly. Electricity was a luxury once. A phone was a luxury once. Running water was a luxury once. People who think fiber is a luxury can’t see past tomorrow, and shouldn’t be allowed to plan it. Nicely said.
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Semper Fidelis |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| reply to Network Guy
But isn't that exactly what happened with the aforementioned items: running water, electricity, phone service.
Metro areas were first served, and rurals second. That alone does not discount something being deemed a utility.
I am of the opinion that broadband is not yet at the level of utility, but it is well on it's way to becoming so. Evidenced partially by the fact that established "utility companies" such as TELCOs are major providers of service. Eventually the connectivity will just be one line, and THAT single connection will be a utility.
K.
--
TheGlobalMind.com
Forget regret, or life is yours to miss - Rent |
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Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| reply to icp1
said by icp1 :You don't think electricity, clean water, and sewage are essential to life? Don't put words in my mouth. CLEAN water is not what I commented on, but water systems. There is a difference.
But to answer your question, none of these systems is essential to sustaining life. The fact that cities provide these systems is what allows them to grow to the enormous sizes that they do. Once a city has grown to that size, which could only have been possible with these utility systems in place, then of course shutting them down would drastically impact the people living there. I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my point, however. |
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Fatal Vector
@aol.com
| reply to icp1
Packed together as we are, if we didn't have sewers and electricity there would be epidemics in short order, just like there were before sewers and running water. These things became a reality because of such epidemics at a time when there was much less population density than there is today. Besides that, Life is damn hard and inconvenient without electricity which you will notice during the next extended blackout.
On top of that, if it weren't for electricity, you wouldn't have all the frozen food you take so much for granted. This country would be totally different. Yes, people managed to survive without electricity and sewers and running water, but their lives were shorter and MUCH harder. They were TOUGH back then because they had to be. The majority of the US population today would not survive in such conditions because the old knowledge and ways have not been passed on and, to be honest, we are va fat and lazy society in many ways.
What will eventually happen is that fiber will replace copper. It's inevitable. It may take a decade or two, but it WILL happen. As far as computerized appliances connected to the web. They have those allready and Windows XP has a mechanism to use them that is never used and is normally turned off (if you're smart) because it is a security hole. I dont see consumers flocking to the store to buy a refrigerator with web access either. On the face of it, such a idea is silly.
The more likely evolution is the household computer that controls appliances (as well as lights, heat, communications, etc) by a preset program and allows web access for them-if NEEDED-for service, etc. Otherwise, such access is simply another security nightmare waiting to be exploited.
The web is not the all encompassing nirvana it is made out to be. Like allways, the corporations and government see nothing more in it than a revenue stream. Just look how Comcast is pushing 4 Mb service: Streaming audio/video PREMIUM (read: extra cost) services. If you want more proof, just look at all the "ads by GOOOOOGLE on this very website and the websites it links you to in "news" stories.
In the end, money talks, and you walk, pilgrim, just like allways. |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | reply to B
Nothing is certain, of course. But I'd put the likelyhood of pervasive high-bandwidth home networks up there statistically with Paris Hilton not getting a Nobel peace prize. |
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B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| reply to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode :Simply putting forth the seemingly ignored future-fact that home data, in very short order, will be one-pipe that connects to all manner of electronics, connecting everything in the home to a global network, and largely a necessity for anyone not hiding out on the fringe's of society. (Which I grant is always a choice - and maybe in 10 years a wise one) I don't know if that observation justifies subsidization or anything else, simply throwing the concept on the table. And I'm just saying that the "observation" isn't necessarily a sure thing. Who's to say that in fact we're headed for that particular future?
I don't disagree with the likelihood, but I'm naive enough to realize that we can be completely wrong -- what if wired broadband is an also-ran in the history books, and some form of wireless connectivity becomes paramount? What if, us geeky enthusiasts aside, the global net really DOESN'T become as all-important and all-consuming as we think it will be? The future is inevitable, but particular technologies and social developments aren't.
-- B
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In a realm outside causality and function |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| reply to N3OGH
I have natural gas heating, and I'm sure you could make a gas heater easily enough w/o electricity if you really had to. My point is not that I don't need or want it, it's that just because it's a utility doesn't mean it is necessary to life. 
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! |
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Sarah
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2001-01-09
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| reply to N3OGH
said by N3OGH :A utility is a service you could essentially, die without. That's just a definition you made up, that doesn't make it true. 
Dictionary definition of "public utility" from www.m-w.com:
"a business organization (as an electric company) performing a public service and subject to special governmental regulation"
That's all. No one said it has to be a life-saving technology.
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The devil makes work for idle hands, but Stanford makes work for idle CPUs! |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Sarah
Could you tell me where you found a heating system for your home that doesn't use electricity in some way? If it's working for you up in MA, it's got to be able to handle the cold in PA.
No heat in winter = freeze to death.
Electricity is a utility....
PS, a wood stove isn't going to cut it. I have one, and while it's nice, the whole Northeast doesn't have enough trees to keep us all warm all winter..... |
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