oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
| reply to BosstonesOwn
Re: Deserved arrest
Nothing is missing. I put the hose back, the pool water is still there...I bring my own charcoal...
I equate it with physical goods to get it through some people's thick heads that personal property is personal property whether you can see it when you use it or not.
And of course it's personal loss. In my case I pay for a 3Mb connection...if someone else is using my service while I am I lose that portion of my 3Mb service...they are stealing a portion of the service I pay for.
And if I'm not around...it's no different than 'borrowing' the neighbors hose or swimming in their pool. Just because there is no loss of use or harm doesn't make it right or legal. |
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iamsomeone
@rr.com | reply to Karl Bode
and what of the AP when it's set to "Broadcast" the SSID? that would make the AP "accessing" the laptop or whatnot that would end up connecting to it........... |
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iamsomeone
@rr.com
| reply to Karl Bode
the pool is "almost" a fair comparison except.... it would be an equal comparison if your pool had a sign on it saying anyone is free to use it and you standing by the sign waving for people to come in. Your pool does not have a setting that can be set to assign leases to all incoming connections or to be "private". AP's can be set either to only allow some connections or to "allow" everything, and assign a "lease" to whichever computers within range. If it's set to assign a lease to whatever is in range, then it makes sense that this would constitute "permission"---- unless there is some sort of security or encryption that the user is "tricking" or "hacking". Security in itself does not change whether it's illegal or not to connect, but if there is security then the user connecting is lying about it's identity which would seem to relate to "obtaining property (service) under false pretenses". |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
1 edit | So if you leave your door unlocked that is permission for me to enter. That's fine.
An AP is a gate. Encryption is a lock on the gate.
You must actively connect to the AP just as you must open the gate. Neither imply permission to do anything. |
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iamsomeone
@rr.com
| reply to oliphant
i think you misunderstood DebianDude. i dont think it said it's "right" or "not stealing" to take the calculator..... i think he was pointing out that by the logic you presented that taking the calculator would be a 3rd degree felony..... which it would. calculators are computers in the same manner that an AP is. |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA
1 edit | What if it's a $1000 calculator? The fact that you returned it doesn't negate the fact that you didn't have a right to touch it.
So you're cool if people 'borrow' your car without your knowledge or permission so long as they bring it back? |
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iamsomeone
@rr.com
| wow from most of your comments you seem intelligent but here maybe you neglected to read what you replied to..... i said the right or wrong of taking the calculator was NOT in dispute. taking the calculator is wrong, taking the calculator is stealing. taking the calculator is NOT a third degree felony but the calculator IS a computer (in the same way that an AP is... even more so if it's a nice one like a TI-89) so by the definition that accessing a computer(if an AP falls under the definition of a computer) is a third degree felony then taking the calculator would be a third degree felony.
no, the fact that the calculator was returned does NOT negate the fact that the other person did not have a right to touch it.
no, i'm not cool if people 'borrow my car without my knowledge or permission so long as they bring it back.
(and FYI also no, i do not condone wardriving to use open WIFIs. but whether something is right or wrong does not always mean it is or should be legal/illegal -- or, more relevantly, whether it is or should be interpreted as legal/illegal when there is no legislation pertaining specifically to the actions in question) |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| reply to oliphant
said by oliphant  :It's wouldn't occur to you that it's just wrong would it? Then when the router broadcasts it is trying to access my computer since each AP is aware of it's surrounding systems and Yes they do try and handshake. So that equipment is in violation of the law also. Come on man make some common sense approaches and don't try and blanket a law to fit all the issues at hand.
That is why america is horrible at the moment lawyers try to use laws to blanket everything. That is why every one is sue happy and every insurance rate is going sky high.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to oliphant
said by oliphant :So if you leave your door unlocked that is permission for me to enter. That's fine. An AP is a gate. Encryption is a lock on the gate. You must actively connect to the AP just as you must open the gate. Neither imply permission to do anything. See you go back to a physical intrusion which is nothing like a broadcast item. You are putting it out to be seen by many. You don't leave a door open and a sign saying come in and take what you want.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to oliphant
said by oliphant :What if it's a $1000 calculator? The fact that you returned it doesn't negate the fact that you didn't have a right to touch it. So you're cool if people 'borrow' your car without your knowledge or permission so long as they bring it back? So by your meanings if you found an ipod in the street and no one was around to lay claim you would leave it there and keep walking?
If so Now I have an idea why you are so against this. You lost an ipod and couldn't find it.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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spenster
join:2001-04-03
Houston, TX
| reply to Karl Bode
quote:
I think it's wrong if he accesses the person's PC, causes damage, throttles connections, engages in criminal activity etc.
Do I think it wrong if someone drives by a neighborhood, and uses a totally unprotected hotspot to send e-mail? Check stock quotes? Surf? No. Nobody is harmed.
Don't want that? Secure your hotspot.
The idea we'd start prosecuting such cases is utterly idiotic.
Hey Karl, does the name Paul Timmins ring a bell? All he did was use an open access point to check his email at Lowes and once they contacted the FBI, he was charged with one count of unauthorized computer access. |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| reply to Dragasoni
said by Dragasoni :You "older" folks with your "morals" sound really stupid, you need to adapt to the year 2005. -Dragasoni- Hmmm ...
--
Need a bit more range? WWW.FREEANTENNAS.COMNeed a bit more privacy? WWW.FREEANTENNAS.COMNeed a bit more speed? WWW.FREEANTENNAS.COM |
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rodoke
join:2003-10-28
Carbondale, IL
2 edits | reply to oliphant
said by oliphant :Love that partisan closed-mind policy there Karl? It's that twisted logic of everything being the fault of the "liberals" or the "conservatives" that has crazy activist judges saying it's the rape victims' fault they got raped because they voted wrong in the last election. Stupidity is asking to be victimized...especially by nerds and powerbooks. It's too much to expect people to <cartman>respect others' PROPERTY</cartman>. I won't understand this simple concept until I'm defrauded or framed. There. I fixed it for you. |
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Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :This guy deserved to be arrested. He knew he wasn't getting access from a legitimate free hotspot. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who do the same thing, albeit unknowingly.
Person A has a Linksys AP in it's default state. Person B buys a Linksys AP for his own usage. Person B plugs everything in, sees two APs with SSIDs of "linksys" in his WZC window, and connects to one or the other randomly.
Is he a felon? I've seen it happen all the time.
Besides, the guy in this story was a complete idiot to act suspiciously. People knowingly connect to other people's APs all the time and never get caught. The fact of the matter is that the people who sit and have their APs used for free browsing (and thus have everything in their default state) don't have the logs to prove that it ever happened. At most, they'll have an entry on the DHCP lease page of their router, which is easily cleared before disconnecting.
--
"Some people never see the light till it shines thru bullet holes." -Bruce Cockburn
iPod Shuffle=iPos
I'm testing Gmail's spam filters: Broadbandreports1@gmail.com
Spam: 6200+ |
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Sodium
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Rice Lake, WI
|  reply to BosstonesOwn
said by BosstonesOwn :Radio , TV thinks like that equate to it. Not quite. Radio and TV signals are "passive", meaning they require no response from you to deliver the product. When you listen to your radio or watch TV, you are analyzing radio waves that are passing through the Rx antenna. I.e. you don't need to send a signal to the TV station to let them know you want to change channels, you just hop to the next frequency band that corresponds to the next channel to want to view.
WiFi is an "active" signal, meaning it needs a response from the user to deliver its intended product. You need to send packets to the AP to tell it to route you to google.com or to the proper drive on the home media server on your LAN, for examples.
Therefore, your argument of just using what's already passing through the air is null. In order to use the connection, you would have to knowingly respond to the AP to make the proper requests, and therefore knowingly be making access to the user's network without their permission (which is illegal).
I don't understand your comment about bandwidth being "not metered", either. My connection bogs down with just 3 people using it at once (only 512kbps  ). I call it illegal if someone uses my connection without my permission because it is a service that I am paying for, just like phone service, cable/satellite TV, electricity, etc. It's called "theft of service". I see you are a Comcast cable user. Try uncapping your modem to get 50mbps for a day and you will find out what I'm talking about.  |
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Sodium
Premium
join:2003-12-02
Rice Lake, WI
| reply to LinuxJunkie
said by LinuxJunkie :But it contains no hard drive so therefore it contains no pertinent, private or valuable data. Nice try with the spin, however. Furthermore, that law says "any computer connected to the Internet" -- what about computers that are simply on a closed LAN that happens to have a wireless connection? No Internet connection there so that law wouldn't even apply in that case. My LinkSys WRT54GS has the CPU, Memory, etc. mentioned as well as 8M of Flash memory and a version of Linux compiled for the custom Broadcom CPU.
I have logging enabled on my router, which *could* contain private/valuable information stored in the Flash memory - i.e. private MAC addresses, who's been on my network, etc. I would consider the Flash memory a form of hard drive in that the memory is non-volatile.
I have to agree with you about the closed LAN thing though, in general. The problem is the only way to really know if it's a closed LAN or if it's connected to the internet is if you connect to the AP itself.
Boy, I would really hate to be a lawyer in the Information Age.  |
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boog
Premium
join:2000-07-24
Trenton, OH
| reply to LinuxJunkie
said by LinuxJunkie :But it contains no hard drive so therefore it contains no pertinent, private or valuable data. If you were to connect to my AP it would have to ask my linux box for an ip address, it has a hard drive. The linux box is also the dns server, which is handed out in the dhcp request. I would say that would be "connecting" to my computer.
Even with that said, I still have to feel that if they didn't try to lock it down in any way, they must not care that anyone connects to it. I believe that AP's and wireless routers come with directions, and it says in there that if you don't encrypt or at least mac filter, that anyone can connect and possibly steal your info.
I for one do care and I lock mine down.
Am I a hypocrite? I'm sure it can be twisted to look like I am. |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA | reply to BosstonesOwn
If I don't see an obvious owner yeah. It's not mine. It could have fallen out of the pocket of someone just a minute before and they're on their way back for it. I don't follow the principle (or lack thereof) of finders keepers, losers weepers. |
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RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN
| reply to Dragasoni
said by Dragasoni :You "older" folks with your "morals" sound really stupid, you need to adapt to the year 2005. -Dragasoni- Wow, I must be stupid. I didn't realize morality had a time limit.
RJ |
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lucky644
Premium
join:2002-02-04
| reply to 93254336
said by 93254336 :said by TKJunkMail :This guy deserved to be arrested. He knew he wasn't getting access from a legitimate free hotspot. While his intentions may not be known for sure, he surely wasn't just trying to get free internet access. More than likely he was trying to steal information. Just because the homeowner had an unsecured AP, it doesn't make what this guy did legal. Try him in court, fine him, and confiscate all his computer and network equipment. And then put him on probation where if he gets caught again he goes to jail. I agree. Attempting to access wireless networks without permission is no different than going through a neighborhood and trying the front doors of all the houses to see which ones are unlocked. An unlocked door is not an implicit invitation to enter and take what you want. - Dan Ridiculious analogy, using someones internet that they're broadcasting is far different from actually entering someones HOME without permission. |
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