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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Verizon just doesn't get it. The Verizon exec is almost as dumb as the **AA exec. "Giving it away for free". Please explain where the 'free' part is? Someone is paying for the wireless access card, thus, verizon is getting paid for the access. What that person chooses to do with their LEGALLY PAID FOR access point is up to the person, not verizon.
If you take away the verizon doublespeak, what the executive meant to say was... "We aren't raping everyone we can for all the money we can".
Verizon can put "Terms of Service" and rules for any way they want. However, I the end user, can choose to ignore those terms of service at my own risk. Now, since Verizon is classified as a 'common carrier', they cannot legally monitor what I am doing, so their ability to 'catch me' is severely limited. All they can do is spout out empty threats really, cause proving it would be very hard to do, and at the profit margins they make, just not fiscally viable.
Why is this such an issue? Because it shows that Verizon is selling a product, with certain capabilities, that they don't want the user to use. (i.e. the user is paying for 500kb download over EVDO, and if the person chooses to use all 500kb, verizon can't support it). Guess what, it's not the USERS problem.
For those who don't get it, it's would be like Ford selling me a car that can only carry one passenger. Even though I don't currently carpool today, if my situation changed, and I had to, yet was unable to, I'd be pissed. Ford sold me a product, I can do what I want with the product, as long as I follow the law (not fords terms of service, the LAW, they ARE different you know), and in many cases, even if I don't follow the law.
So, verizon, if you want to limit it, then by all means put on a byte cap. Oh, wait, you don't want to do that, because your studies have shown that the sales you would loose to your competitors would be greater than the savings you would make. Cause if I were your competitor, I sure as hell would take out full page ads spreading FUD about your product, and it would work too...
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Grand Poobah | |
|  LostInWoods
join:2004-04-14
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. I doubt that Verizon's status as a common carrier applies to the EVDO data service. They should be able to monitor usage to ensure compliance with the TOS and cut off non-compliant users. Same as any other ISP.
I don't follow your Ford analogy. If you need a bigger car, you can sell the one you have and get a bigger car, but that has no correlation to a data service. If you like car analogies for the EVDO TOS, how about you could rent a car and let anyone drive it despite what the contract says, but when it's wrecked/lost/stolen, or just if they track the car and find out you've violated the contract, then the rental company will come after YOU. | |
| Dexter9999
join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ
| I have an EV-DO card and I fully understand why I can't share the service.
A better analogy than the Ford example you gave is for someone to walk in to an All-You-Can buffet with a bag full of Tupperware. Since that person paid their bill, it now entitles them to fill all the containers and take the food home to feed their entire neighborhood.
When the owner of the restaurant sets the price, he sets it with the expectation that you won’t take every last bit of food in the place. Verizon had the same expectation and as a user of the service, you probably agree to this in the TOS (which I don’t have here in front of me.) | |
| JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
| said by G_Poobah  :For those who don't get it, it's would be like Ford selling me a car that can only carry one passenger. I think that's the wrong analogy. It's more like the local transit authority selling you a bus pass, and then you using it to get to work, loaning it to co-workers to run errands while you're at work, going home and loaning it to a friend to get to get back and forth to his night shift job, and loaning it out on your days off as well. Or, you might say it's like putting a splitter on your cable connection, and running wires to your neighbors, and maybe even to a large screen TV in a public area. Or maybe like sending identical quintuplets in to eat, one at a time, at an "all you can eat" buffet.
Internet service providers have gotten away from early (mostly dial-up) charging based on usage, but their models are based on presumptions about average use by one household. If too many individuals push the envelope, their model to offer affordable service to the average consumer starts to break down. Metering usage adds costs, and they'd hope to avoid having to add those costs to mass-market broadband. I think they're in a quandry that has to be appreciated, and on the other hand they have gone ahead and advertised things like "unlimited" broadband.
Let's think of it in terms of the large majority of average users who have moderate needs for broadband at an affordable price. How do you serve the vast majority of users, without saddling them with the costs of a small number of users who use bandwidth approaching one or more magnitudes of order greater than average, or with costs of metering and monitoring to somehow handle those exceptional users? Is that more or less unfair in the net than trying to keep costs down by cracking down on the small number of people who try to push the envelope on the marketing offer of "unlimited"? | |
| | pinetree6
join:2005-06-13
Oakland, CA | Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. i agree.
don't advertise "unlimited" if you don't intend to provide it. | |
| | | mallyman
join:1999-12-02
Kirkland, WA
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. they ARE providing unlimited...
FOR YOU
not your friends and their friends and their friends...
the pricing model is built on that and if it was 'buy once, give to the neighborhood' you would see 500 monthly instead of 80.00
the bus pass analogy fits best here... you can use your bus pass for your OWN activities... but for others to 'share' it is not part of the deal... | |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| My analogy was correct. I purchased a car that CAN carry 8 people, but according to Fords 'terms of service', only I can use the car by myself. If I choose to ignore that rule, and carry 8 people means that Ford lost 7 'potential sales', thus if you make EVERYONE follow Fords 'terms of service', then all 7 of my passengers would need to purchase their own Ford cars. My bringing them with me (sharing) is causing lost revenue (lost sales) to Ford.
The tupperware argument has no basis. We are talking about a 'transient service', not a physical good. Every instant in time, it's either being used or not being used. If it's not being used, then it's lost forever, that's what 'transient' means. Completely different concept than physical goods. You can't apply the arguments of 'physical loss' to this, only 'potential loss'. Very well defined in case law.
The transient authority is a good analogy. If I buy a pass to the Metro in DC, I can use it all I want. In fact, I can give it out to my friends, and it's violation of terms of service. But wait, I can't use the pass when my friend has it, so, am I really in violation? I would argue no, since I can't physically use the pass while my friend has it. It's the same with internet access. If my 'friend' is using all 500Kb of download, then guess what, I can't download! It's simple enough to understand, but is it wrong? no.. I paid for 500kb of download service. Period.
What people are trying to argue is that it's legally wrong. It's 100% NOT legally wrong. I paid for the service, I can use the service the way I SEE FIT, terms of service be damned. PERIOD.
Is it morally wrong? Hmm.. maybe, but maybe not. Morals are very subjective.
Is it unprofitable for the business that sold me this service? Absolutely. Will the business use doublespeak and lies to try and prevent this, and improve their bottom line? I sure hope so, otherwise I wouldn't want to be a shareholder.
Be sure to separate moral/religious beliefs from legal beliefs. If they advertise 'unlimited access', then LEGALLY, I can use the unlimited as unlimited. If they don't like it, then they just need to remove the words 'unlimited' from their advertising, and clearly define what I can/cannot do with their service. So pray tell me why they haven't done that?
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Grand Poobah | |
| | Dexter9999
join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. I think Verizons statement below covers the legal aspect, in that it says the service is for Individual use and not to be resold.
Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess: NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess data sessions may be used with wireless devices for the following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email and individual productivity applications such as customer relationship management, sales force and field service automation). Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess is for individual use only and not for resale. Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess cannot be used: (1) for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games; (2) with server devices or with host computer applications, including, without limitation, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, automated functions or any other machine-to-machine application; or (3) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections. NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess data sessions automatically terminate after two hours of inactivity unless used with a Mobile IP-capable device. We reserve the right to limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone who uses NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels. We also reserve the right to terminate service upon expiration of Customer Agreement term. BroadbandAccess kilobyte usage may not appear on your bill.
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| | | stufried
Premium
join:2003-10-13
 ·Verizon BroadbandA..
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. The agreement says that I cannot use it is as a backup for my broadband. The provision states that:
"Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess cannot be used: (* * * (3) as a substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections."
Literally read, I cannot use their broadband in any place where private lines or dedicates data connections are available. Certainly, that means that if my cable modem goes down, don't even think about using their card at home. Arguably, it could be read to say that I couldn't use it at a hotel that has paid broadband in the room or in a Starbucks.
The problem is that the terms and conditions are written so poorly that they can apply the Rorscharch (sp?) inkblot school of contract construction -- they can twist it to mean whatever they think it means. | |
| | | | Dexter9999
join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. You're right...the agreement is vague...probably intentionally. In any event, no one forced me to agree to it, but I did and I will abide by it.
I think what they mean in section 3 is that if you have a T1 line that you pay $600+/month for with a SLA and that line goes down, don't use this card as the backup. We for example use BRI ISDN in some cases for that purpose in remote offices.
We pay a lot of money for a T1 because the agreement we signed allows us to use it the way we want. This is the difference between a T1 with a Service Level Agreement and the EV-DO card that cost's $80/month. | |
| | | | | stufried
Premium
join:2003-10-13
·Verizon BroadbandA..
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. I understand their complaint about running an office off an EVDO line Conversely, if my wife and I share the connection in a hotel room, I'm not sure what the complaint is. I suspect that there wouldn't be one, but you are always at their mercy.
Verizon should give thought to making these mobile hotspots legit. I'm sure that a number of limo companies, charter bus companies, and companies that regularly do trade shows, etc. would be very interested in this service. | |
| | | | | | Dexter9999
join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ
| Re: Verizon just doesn't get it. I also suspect that they wouldn't give you a hard time about sharing the connection with your wife (what you do in the hotel room is your business,) but how to you write that into a TOS? That's why the TOS is so broad.
Verizon may be interested in letting a limo/bus etc. resell the servie, but not at $80/month. | |
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