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centric
join:2005-07-31
Ann Arbor, MI | reply to voip4me
Re: FWD-Free world diapup, how does it work? Actually, I'm probally more interested in buying a SIP device and using an external service, like voxee, to make long distance calls. Mathimatically, I figured it would save me up to 40%.
I currently have Sunrocket:
i.e.
500 min. calls within US
150 min. Bangkok Thailand .08
50 min Shainghai China .05
--------------------------
About $30 per month w/ SR
With my own SIP going thru a minute plan w/ same minutes as above:
500 min. calls within US .01-.02
150 min. Bangkok Thailand .04
50 min Shainghai China .02
------------------------------------
About $18 per month (give or take)
I will still need an incoming number (local), so I'd need to find a solution for that too. So, what I need is:
1. Examples of per minute providers for voip like voxiee.
2. A way to obtain and/or port a local number w/ a SIP I buy.
3. I need incoming/outgoing calling.
Configuring the box I think I won't have a problem with, since I've configured my entire internal network, I just needed the "alternatives" if I were to purchase my own SIP device, and to be pointed in the right direction. | |
| said by centric:I currently have Sunrocket: i.e. 500 min. calls within US 150 min. Bangkok Thailand .08 50 min Shainghai China .05 -------------------------- About $30 per month w/ SR Actually, about $27/mo, since SR gives you $3/month of international LD credit.  | |
1 edit | reply to centric
said by centric: So, what I need is: 1. Examples of per minute providers for voip like voxiee. 2. A way to obtain and/or port a local number w/ a SIP I buy. 3. I need incoming/outgoing calling. Points 2 & 3:
One example:
MPC offers LNP porting from 95% of the US and BYOD or softphone for $4.95 for 60 min, or 500 min for $9.95. Incoming calls are free, so if you don't need many US minutes the $4.95 plan would be perfect. They are EXTREMELY reliable and have awesome customer service. Per minute rates are $0.025 after your free mins are used up.
Of course there are many other options for US PSTN connection. So far Voxee sounds cheapest for per-minute to Bangkok, but there may be others I am not familiar with.
You should look into an internet account for the Bangkok person if that would be feasible. If they already have internet then get them set up with FWD.
Edit:
Hey Draco, VERY good post! 
We both said kinda the same thing but somehow you beat me me in by a hair
Your post was much better (and longer, wow!) and more informative than mine. . .
Way to go! | |
| reply to centric
said by centric:Actually, I'm probally more interested in buying a SIP device and using an external service, like voxee, to make long distance calls. In which case I recommend getting a SIP device that is explicitly designed to handle multiple VoIP providers on it. That way, you can "mix and match" as you see fit, to get the best combination of deals (for example: Use one provider with "free incoming minutes" for inbound telco calls, a 2nd provider for internet to internet calls, yet another provider that has good rates for outbound LD, and maybe even a "backup" provider for making calls if/when your primary "outbound provider" is down for any reason)!
1. Examples of per minute providers for voip like voxiee.
Voxee does seem to be the cheapest provider. But IMHO you don't want to depend upon only ONE provider (especially an apparently very small one like Voxee), to provide all your service. As such, I recommend that you get a 2nd "pay by the minute" provider (also programmed into your SIP device), so that you can immediately make calls even if your primary provider (voxee?) is down for any reason.
With that in mind, I use »www.teliax.com "pay as you go" plan ($10 minimum pre-pay to sign up). They are a little more expensive than Voxee (2 cents/min for USA LD vs Voxee's 1.1), but then again pretty much everyone is. And Teliax does have a pretty nice web portal for managing your account. Finally, Teliax doesn't charge any fees for calling USA "toll free" (800/888/877/866) numbers, even on the per-minute plan. So I have my SPA-3000 setup to route all my toll free calling via my Teliax.com account (instead of using up minutes on one of my other VoIP accounts, or dealing with the lower quality calls of FWD's free "toll free" peering arrangement).
Another good choice for BYOD minutes, may be SIPphone.com, which has rates similar to Teliax. One great advantage of SIPphone.com, is that as soon as you have a "premium account" (which happens after you have bought $20 of "SIP minutes"), you can make up to 5 minutes of "free" calls to 30 listed countries (although you do have to enter a special code when calling, to tell SIPphone you want that to be one of your "free calls", or you will be billed normally for the call). So by buying $20 of "SIP minutes", you also get a free 5 minute call every day (if you so desire). While your free 5 minute call likely would cost less than a quarter (if you paid for the minutes), those "free calls" could add up to significant savings over time. And remember, you can use SIPphone for their 5-minute free calls (and as a "backup" provider using your paid for SIP minutes), even if you use some other provider (voxee?) for most of your outbound calling!
2. A way to obtain and/or port a local number w/ a SIP I buy.
In which case, you will need a provider that can handle porting for your area. And that will cost you something each month. How much will vary with the providers (an incoming line with a provider you can "port" a number into, is generally at least $5/month, and prices go up from there).
NOTE: There are some places that can get you an incoming number FOR FREE (no monthly charges). However, those free numbers services don't deal with porting existing numbers, and furthermore they only give out free numbers from their specific geographic region (for example, »www.ipkall.com gives you a free "Washington State" number, that normal telco users can call to "ring" your SIP device). So if all you need is incoming calls via some number (somewhere in the USA), you can get that service for nothing. But if you also include the requirement that the number be "local" (to you) and/or the requirement that they be able to "port your number", you likely will pay a monthly fee for this (how much will depend upon the provider, and that choice will likely be controlled by which providers can handle numbers in your local area)!
Of course, if you can't find a service that can handle/port your number (for a decent price), you always have the option of keeping your SunRocket service for inbound calls + "free" outbound USA calls. You could still use other services (with your own SIP device) when they are cheaper to do (for example, using Voxee to call internationally, and use FWD/SIPphone/etc to make free internet to internet calls). Heck, an SPA-3000 should even allow you to make/receive calls from both your SunRocket Gizmo (hooked up to the SPA-3000's "line" jack) and any services you program directly into the Sipura device itself, on the same "phone" (so you don't have to add extra phones in your house, for different calling patterns).
3. I need incoming/outgoing calling.
Then I highly recommend that you don't buy the cheapest SIP device you can get, but instead spend a little more on a device that is designed to allow multiple VoIP providers "at the same time". For example, the SPA-3000 I use allows you to have: 1) A primary inbound/outbound VoIP provider, 2) Four additional outbound only (you make the call, but they can't call you) VoIP providers (via their "gateway" provider fields), 3) Eight different SIP URIs (direct internet addresses for VoIP calls), via the device's "speed dials" 4) And you can also hook up an existing line (including another VoIP device, such as a SunRocket Gizmo) to the "Line" jack of the device. And if you configure your "dial plan" (the translation of what digits you dial on the phone, and what call you actually make as a result) correctly, all these features are immediately available from any "phone" (including hooking your Sipura up to your house phone wiring) you have hooked up to the adapter.
NOTE: The Sipura SPA-3000 is not the only device that allows multiple VoIP providers to be entered into it. But many of the cheaper SIP devices (and even some of the more expensive SIP devices) can only be setup for one provider at a time (you have to reprogram them to use them for some other service), so do pay attention to the "feature set" before purchasing. As to the Sipura SPA-3000, I speak about it a lot simply because I own one, and therefore have a pretty good idea what it can (and can't) do. But that doesn't mean you can't find some other SIP device that would meet your needs (including support for multiple VoIP accounts), just that I know a Sipura SPA-3000 is able to "seamlessly" handle multiple VoIP accounts because I've done it with my SPA-3000.
NOTE: The biggest limit of the SPA-3000, is that the only things that can directly (without some clever "forwarding") "ring your phone" are the primary "Line 1" VoIP service and the "phone line" you may have hooked up to the device (if you hook up a "phone line" to the device, so far I haven't). However, you should normally be able to put "outbound services" (such as voxee.com or teliax.com) on the 4 "gateway fields", and reserve the primary VoIP service (and/or the "Line" port, if you decide to keep SunRocket) for whatever you are using for incoming calls. For example, my current SPA-3000 setup is: 1) FWD as my primary VoIP (so I can receive FWD calls, and not just make them). 2) My incoming IPKall.com number is forwarded to FWD, so it also rings my "phone", 3) DialPad.com (my primary USA outbound service) is on "gateway 1" (and I also setup my dial plan to automatically select that service if/when I dial a normal USA LD number), 4) Teliax.com (my backup service) is gateway 2, and is also the service my "dial plan" automatically selects for "toll free" 800/888/877/866 calls 5) IconnectHere is currently on "gateway 3", simply because I got a free $3.00 promo account from them, when I purchased my SPA-3000 (I'll probably drop them when the free minutes run out, since they are more expensive then both Teliax and SIPphone) 6) My testing of "VoIP Buster" is on "gateway 4", but I'm seriously disappointed with the quality of that service, so that likely won't remain for long, 7) And I was even able to play "dial plan games" (because SIPphone lets you call them via a normal "unauthenticated" SIP URI), to allow me to directly connect with SIPphone, even though I didn't use a "gateway" spot to do this!
NOTE: I have always been of the opinion, that (if at all possible) you should have new services "up and running" (and tested for a short time), before you disconnect your existing services. By doing things this way, you will have a short period of time when you are using (and paying for) multiple services. However, you will also have the option to painlessly go with "plan B" (a different VoIP provider, perhaps) if any of the new services are "unacceptable" for any reason. And by "overlapping" your old service, with the new, you should (in theory) never have any times where you find yourself with no service at all (even if/when there is some "glitch" with setting up some new service).
In your case, that would mean that you should plan to keep your SunRocket service "for the present", even if you eventually decide to port your number somewhere else. IMHO you shouldn't plan to drop SunRocket until you have done all of the following: 1) Gotten an unlocked SIP device, and figured out how to set it up. 2) Signed up with the BYOD services you want to use for outbound calls, and verified that they work OK for you on that SIP device (and if any of them are unacceptable for any reason, fix the problems and/or find some alternative services to use that are acceptable), 3) You have found, signed up for, and tested (with a "temp number") the service you want to use to replace SunRocket's inbound number (again, if that service is unacceptable for any reason, drop them and try a different service for eventually porting your existing number to). 4) And finally, don't disconnect your existing service until you request that your SunRocket number be ported, wait for however long the number porting takes, and you have CONFIRMED (and tested) that the porting completed properly (if you disconnect your SunRocket service before the porting completes, you may just "lose your number"). | |
| reply to gnexus
Alfonzo21, you wouldn't be using POTS to talk to your family in S. Korea with FWD--you'd simply use the Internet. Both ends would connect via FWD sans phone lines. If your family there doesn't have access to broadband, you may not be able to take advantage of FWD; quality with dialup would be problematic at best. Make sure the family there have signed up for a FWD account and have a softphone (most are free) or a sip device. Don't know if the Packet 8 device wlll work or not, but they can get an unlocked SIP device to use. FWD doesn't really give you true VOIP--just access to other FWD members, toll-free US numbers, and peering with some commercial VOIP providers (however, that's shrinking since Vonage pulled out of it's peering agreement). If you want true VOIP with international long distance to phone lines, you'll need to signup with a commercial provider and I suspect you'll be in violation of their TOS if you attempted to share such a service. | |
| said by VOIPer_53:
Alfonzo21, you wouldn't be using POTS to talk to your family in S. Korea with FWD--you'd simply use the Internet. Both ends would connect via FWD sans phone lines. If your family there doesn't have access to broadband, you may not be able to take advantage of FWD; FWD doesn't really give you true VOIP--just access to other FWD members, toll-free US numbers, and peering with some commercial VOIP providers (however, that's shrinking since Vonage pulled out of it's peering agreement). If you want true VOIP with international long distance to phone lines, you'll need to signup with a commercial provider and I suspect you'll be in violation of their TOS if you attempted to share such a service.
This is a load of crap. 
At least use a BBR account before posting your inaccurate text. | |
| reply to DracoFelis
Teliax.com does charge a per instance connection fee of USD $0.02 per toll-free call.
»www.teliax.com/faq.html#q14 | |
| No Teliax does NOT charge a connect fee for toll-free calls (or any other call for that matter) any more! That FAQ must be out of date.
Apparently (before I signed up for them) Teliax USED TO charge a small "connect fee" for all calls (including toll free calls), but (as reported in their forums) dropped that apparently "unpopular" (albeit small) connect fee a while back. Apparently they just forgot to update all their FAQs at the same time! But, since there is now no "connect fee" (for any Teliax.com call), and "toll free calls" never did have a per-minute charge, "toll free outbound" is now "totally free" with Teliax.com. Yes, the "toll free calls" show up in your itemized "Call History" (on their web portal), but there is no charge next to that call!
And I have confirmed this personally, by logging into my Teliax.com account, and comparing the fees reported on the "Call History" against how much of my prepaid amount has been used up. By doing this, I have confirmed that the only charges I am paying for are the ones listed in the "Call History" as being billed (i.e. I'm not being charged any "hidden fees" that don't show up in the "Call History"), and the only calls in the "Call History" that have any charges are normal telco toll calls (not my "Toll Free" calls), and even they don't have a connect charge.
NOTE: While Teliax no longer charges a "connect fee", they do still have a minimum billable call length of 1 minute (before reverting to their normal 6 second billing). So a 1 second call to the USA will be 2 cents, just as a 59 second call would be. But a 61 second call would be about 2.2 cents (not 4 cents), due to the 6 second billing kicking in. | | |
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| reply to gnexus
Sorry gnexus, but I've used FWD to talk to friends and family who are also FWDers for 4 years and am extremely familiar with it. You cannot call out to the POTS, just US toll-free numbers. FWD doesn't assign DIDs. You can try to sign up with IPKALL to get a Washington state number but don't count on it working consistently. Just sign up at FWD's support boards and read how often calls to IPKALL DIDs don't foward to FWD. As for Vonage pulling out of it's peering arrangment with FWD--it's a fact. Why Vonage did it, I don't know.
As for commercial VOIP providers' TOS, just read the fine print. They aren't going to allow multiple families try to share accounts--they're in the business to make money. | |
 LudwikPremium
join:2004-02-21
Poland | said by VOIPer53:
... I've used FWD to talk to friends and family who are also FWDers for 4 years... FWD is less than 3 years old. It was launched in November 2002.
--
Life in a Jar - The Irena Sendler Project | |
| Sorry Ludwik, FWD Ver.1 first launched in 1995 (as free PC to phone). It was relaunched in 2002, as end-to-end IP. Check here, if you don't believe me. »Broadband Reports: Interview
Used version 1 as well as the old, free Dialpad. Still use FWD for communication with friends and family who are FWDers. | |
1 edit | said by VOIPer 53:
Used version 1 as well as the old, free Dialpad. Still use FWD for communication with friends and family who are FWDers.
Yeah, I was using way back along with Dialpad and Net2Phone. Audio was a bit choppy then, but then again I was using slow DSL. Finally gave up on it back then since I don't use LD much anyway. There wasn't a way to have DID cheaply, which was what I needed, unless you could procure a T1 for other additional uses.
My friend, however, has used it consistently since then to call his family in Europe. He never had complaints once he got cable, before then he was using 56k. Yuck! I tried that a few times. It works but you need a lightweight codec.
Edit:
I'm not sure why you're complaining about latency problem. If you setup your SIP device properly, then after establishing the call, your device should talk to each other directly. If you have latency problem at this point, there is nothing you can do, because it's the latency of the Internet. Very true. The choice of VoIP provider won't affect that once the call is set up. The only thing it really creates is an echo, which should be able to be overcome via ATA or softphone adjustments. | |
LudwikPremium
join:2004-02-21
Poland | reply to VOIPer 53
said by VOIPer 53:Sorry Ludwik, FWD Ver.1 first launched in 1995 (as free PC to phone). It was relaunched in 2002, as end-to-end IP. Check here, if you don't believe me. » Broadband Reports: Interview You are right. I was misled by Jeff Pulver himself (»pulverblog.pulver.com/archives/002633.html).
--
Life in a Jar - The Irena Sendler Project | |
 wesmPremium
join:1999-07-29
Redmond, WA | reply to gnexus
said by gnexus:One example: MPC offers LNP porting from 95% of the US and BYOD or softphone for $4.95 for 60 min, or 500 min for $9.95. Incoming calls are free, so if you don't need many US minutes the $4.95 plan would be perfect. They are EXTREMELY reliable and have awesome customer service. Per minute rates are $0.025 after your free mins are used up. Where does myphonecompany advertise these plans? I've been all over their website and it eludes me...
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they are easy to annoy and have the root password. | |
1 edit | »www.myphonecompany.com/softphone.aspx | |
| reply to DracoFelis
said by DracoFelis:Apparently (before I signed up for them) Teliax USED TO charge a small "connect fee" for all calls (including toll free calls), but (as reported in their forums) dropped that apparently "unpopular" (albeit small) connect fee a while back. Apparently they just forgot to update all their FAQs at the same time! Apparently a little over a month AFTER putting up that FAQ, Teliax changed their prices to start charging a 2 cent "connect fee" for toll free calls. No announcement, just went ahead and did it. I ended up having about a dozen calls that got charged that fee. Not a lot, but clearly not zero!
As a result, I have now reprogrammed my SPA-3000 to use FWD for calling toll free numbers. FWD's toll free call quality isn't as good as Teliax's, but there is no fee for making a "toll free call". | |
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