novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
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join:2002-01-24
Barberton, OH
| reply to Daniel
Re: Anonymnity: Introduction To The Tor Network
said by Daniel  :said by novaflare :Well if your computer isnt the first node in the chain then the data leaving your computer is still unencrypted till it hits the first node. In this case the isp can see the urls you actually wnet to just not what was sent via forms or what you recieved back. How ever if your computer is the first nod of the 3 or how ever many the data gets encrypted the entire time. No. Hops on the Tor network are Tor servers, not Tor clients. Seriously, dude. I will send you $5.00 cash if you go and read the documentation that shows how this works. Here's the URL: » tor.eff.org/overview.htmlScroll down to the pictures; they are what cover the way traffic moves through the network. yeh i seen that but it doesnt tell me if the encryption begins on your computer (hideing the url you visit) or if it starts on the firt tor hop in the chain. If the first tor hop then your isp will see your https http etc request in plain text just as though you were not on tor at all. This in it self present no security threat. No more so than having a https url in your browser history does. So if first tor hop is where encryption starts your isp can still see easly where you went but not what you did when you go their. If »https://dslreports.com loks like ^%$&_#@$^&%^&*$% or something thats all your isp could see. But to pull this off if its even possible to do so would mean that the encryption is completly done on your pc and decrypted at the exit node. It doesnt realy explain where the encryption starts just that while on all hops between you and where you are going its encrypted.
Im going to asume for now till shown other wise that encryption does start on your own pc.
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testacct334
| reply to Daniel
So how does this compare to GhostSurf 2005? |
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Daniel
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Pleasanton, CA
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1 edit | reply to novaflare
said by novaflare :yeh i seen that but it doesnt tell me if the encryption begins on your computer (hideing the url you visit) or if it starts on the firt tor hop in the chain. It does. It shows a green line going from Alice's computer to the first Tor server. The legend reveals that green means encrypted. The combination of Tor and Privoxy hides both your http sessions and your DNS queries, so no, your ISP doesn't know what sites you're visiting at all.
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jp10558
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join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY
| reply to inTulsa
said by inTulsa :said by Daniel :No. Hops on the Tor network are Tor servers, not Tor clients. But many of those Tor servers are under the control of individuals. The Tor software is open-source, so it might not take too much effort for someone to customize their intended pass-through operation. In order to maintain its operation the Tor network needs quite a few intermediate server nodes and quite a few exit nodes. Nobody will validate the functionality of every one of those individuals. Since Tor installs a SOCKS service in the client, protocols such as HTTP, POP3, and many others pass through it. Logging the :110 target connections or certain POST operations could yield a wealth of information by someone having a Tor server online. Sending content to unintended servers would seem rather simple for general spoofing. Wait, are you claiming that TOR will route programs not told to use it? Hello, I have yet to have any program start using TOR to access the net without me specifically setting it as a SOCKS proxy. So, no, my e-mail client isn't going to go through TOR.
Beyond that, you all also seem fixated on the fact that someone can compromise an exit node. I've gone over this about 3 times in this thread why this is a non-issue.
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Daniel
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Pleasanton, CA
clubs: | reply to Daniel
Well, I wouldn't say it's a non-issue, but it's not as big a deal as it was made out to be.
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bilderburg34
| reply to Daniel
I think the big question is, is Tor backdoored by big brother? Many people seem to claim it has a permanent backdoor in it. And in this age of anti-terrorism, I can't believe big brother would ever let such a service go unmonitored.
While some may not consder it that big a deal, perhaps responding with the usual "I'm not doing anything wrong, so why should I care" response, but I for one don't like the idea of being monitored.
After all isn't the reason your using an anonymity service to avoid being spied on? Then again, whether Tor is backdoored or not, big brother can still find out where you go on the internet while you use Tor. |
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Daniel
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Pleasanton, CA
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| said by bilderburg34:
After all isn't the reason your using an anonymity service to avoid being spied on? Not really. It's more to avoid being spied on by anyone other than the government. In other words, if the NSA wants something, they can always make it happen. The rubber-hose attack works on all networks, even Tor.
As far as whether or not big brother has a backdoor into Tor, I highly doubt that. I wouldn't think the EFF would sponsor the project if it had any credible information to support that claim, and they are precisely the type of organization who'd likely investigate if they had any reason to believe it to be true.
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Mark
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join:2001-11-15
Mesa, AZ
| reply to Daniel
In my experience, Tor is mainly used by lamers to evade bans on IRC and other similar services. There's actually a Tor blacklist now.
Regardless, I don't think Tor proxies DNS requests, and exit servers can always be compromised. There's no such thing as total anonymity, but I guess it's good enough for some people. |
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Daniel
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Pleasanton, CA
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| said by Mark :In my experience, Tor is mainly used by lamers to evade bans on IRC and other similar services. If that's your experience, and you can't see any loftier reasons for Tor's existence, then you should consider getting out more. 
said by Mark :Regardless, I don't think Tor proxies DNS requests The combination of Tor and Privoxy (the recommended configuration) does.
said by Mark :and exit servers can always be compromised. We've been through this one.
said by Mark :There's no such thing as total anonymity, but I guess it's good enough for some people. Hey, no fair! You stole that from the Tor FAQ! 
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Mark
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Mesa, AZ
| said by Daniel :If that's your experience, and you can't see any loftier reasons for Tor's existence, then you should consider getting out more. ;) [17:43] <@AntiProxy> DNSBL -> Sly!comp@dsl081-067-211.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net appears in BL
* zone tor.dnsbl.sectoor.de (Tor exit server)
[17:46] <@AntiProxy> DNSBL -> Sly!comp@sml-co-fln_cust4.netit.se appears in BL zone tor.dn
*sbl.sectoor.de (Tor exit server)
[17:57] <@AntiProxy> DNSBL -> Sly!comp@66.239.30.194.ptr.us.xo.net appears in BL zone tor.
*dnsbl.sectoor.de (Tor exit server)
[18:08] <@AntiProxy> DNSBL -> Sly!comp@static-64-115-210-23.isp.broadviewnet.net appears i
*n BL zone tor.dnsbl.sectoor.de (Tor exit server)
(*) WARNING 4 long line(s) split
That's a small snippet of one of the thousands of abusers I see every day. That particular individual was a packet kiddy. Let's not forget forum spammers, either. I know Tor has its merits, but it also has its serious flaws that must be considered. |
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Daniel
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| said by Mark :I know Tor has its merits, but it also has its serious flaws that must be considered. What, in your view, would be one of Tor's "serious flaws"?
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Mark
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Mesa, AZ
| said by Daniel :said by Mark :I know Tor has its merits, but it also has its serious flaws that must be considered. What, in your view, would be one of Tor's "serious flaws"? Primarily its conduciveness to spamming and other forms harassment. It's a good idea, but it won't be long until its blacklisted most places. |
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builderburg34
| reply to testacct334
Some of the differences between Tor and Ghostsurf are for one GS is a pay service and Tor is not. Anytime you have to pay you can usually be tracked by that alone.
GS doesn't use the onion routing tehcnique, you just go straight to their proxies (or hubs), and they can easily log your true IP address, so another way to lose your privacy while using GS.
GS claims they don't keep logs of your internet activity (that could be easily passed on to a third party), but I seriously doubt this claim in the age of anti-terroism. Most likely GS doesn't keep your logs 'for long'. Probably just long enough to pass them off to big brother or whomever.
From what I have heard, but not positive about this one, is GS uses a weaker form of encryption than Tor.
All in all GS is not a bad anonymizer service, it's just not as good, or private, as Tor IMO. But it should get the job done in most cases. |
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Daniel
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Pleasanton, CA
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| reply to Mark
said by Mark :said by Daniel :said by Mark :I know Tor has its merits, but it also has its serious flaws that must be considered. What, in your view, would be one of Tor's "serious flaws"? Primarily its conduciveness to spamming and other forms harassment. So, it has the same weakness that all anonymous proxies have, then, i.e. you can use it to become anonymous. In other words, you're saying that the problem with this technology is that bad people will use it to harass/annoy/disrupt good people.
I do agree with you there, but I don't think that's a "serious flaw". I think it's just like anything else -- encryption, gasoline, or ice picks. It's created for a good purpose but used sometimes for bad ones. Arguing, however, that there's a major flaw with ice picks because they can be used to kill people is a bit specious in my view.
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Mark
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Mesa, AZ
| reply to Daniel
I don't think of it as a matter of good and evil, only one of effort. To abuse open proxies, a user has to find them by scanning or finding a list (where the majority are abysmally slow or don't work). Don't forget, open proxies are rediculously easy to detect.
Tor solves these issues magnificently. Unfortunately, one thing I've learned over the years is that assholes, much like electrons, tend to take the path that requires the least effort. Tor is an attractive path. |
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raulgarza
join:2000-05-02
Union City, NJ
| reply to Daniel
whatever flaws TOR might have, it was great until it got blocked by my netork admin.
Im in the army in Iraq, and our network connection is very restricted (only approved amry sites) so I have been using TOR/Privoxy to log into(gasp) my bank account, yeah is not very secure and im sure someone would be able to crack it but at least I can log in and pay my bills.
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novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
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Barberton, OH
| reply to Mark
said by Mark :I don't think of it as a matter of good and evil, only one of effort. To abuse open proxies, a user has to find them by scanning or finding a list (where the majority are abysmally slow or don't work). Don't forget, open proxies are rediculously easy to detect. Tor solves these issues magnificently. Unfortunately, one thing I've learned over the years is that assholes, much like electrons, tend to take the path that requires the least effort. Tor is an attractive path. I feel the same way. Ive been a op on many dozens of chanels over the years on irc admin or moderator on a couple dozen forums ran my own websites helped set up other peoples web sites etc. One common thread in all that time has been trolls script kiddies and true black hat hackers useing proxies to do their dirty deeds. Theres nothing worse than banning some one by ip or ip range only to have them come back a few minutes later and start again. I personaly hate free proxies and ones that require no log in etc. Tor is such a proxy service. I know in the coming months im going to have a real fight on my hands against troll comeing iin to irc chanels for wich im a op in and trolling the chanel same deal with forums and even the game(s) i gm for. With tor they dont need to hunt down a new proxy to use so they get a new ip to bypass the ban they just cycle tor or if im reading their faq right simply reconnect to the site or server and instantly have a new ip.
Im already looking in to ways to simply and completly deny access to any tor user.
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Daniel
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| reply to Daniel
I think it's important to point out that the main person against Tor in this thread seems to be objecting almost solely because of his role as an IRC/forum admin.
In other words, the benefit of having a tool that lets people surf anonymously is both fundamental and massive. Along with that benefit come some annoyances, i.e. the ability of certain mouthbreathers to use it to annoy people more efficiently.
Labeling anonymnity as bad simply because it can be misused is much like labeling freedom of speech as bad for the same reason. Why not label everything bad that can be used against good people? Freedom of press? The right to bear arms?
Seriously. I don't want to get too hardcore here, but what Novaflare's basically advocating here is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I just think it's important to have a bit of perspective here. Think about what society's priorities are. Think about what's more important.
Is it more important that Internet users be able to surf without being easily tracked, or more important that IRC operators be able to easily ban abusers? I think the answer is clear.
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BeesTea
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| said by Daniel :I think it's important to point out that the main person against Tor in this thread seems to be objecting almost solely because of his role as an IRC/forum admin. It ended there. It started with a bunch of technical make-believe.
We have to agree at this point, at least I hope, that the only thing wrong with TOR is people's opinions of it.
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novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
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| said by BeesTea :said by Daniel :I think it's important to point out that the main person against Tor in this thread seems to be objecting almost solely because of his role as an IRC/forum admin. It ended there. It started with a bunch of technical make-believe. We have to agree at this point, at least I hope, that the only thing wrong with TOR is people's opinions of it. As irc forum admin and game moderator and some one who was involved in helping to decover the meathod used to steel credit card numbers from a secured site i know the dangers of proxies of any form. They can call tor what ever they like but in the end its nothign more than a proxy that encypts data untill it exits the network at that point its decrypted and can be stolen. Those are the facts like it or not tor is just a glorified proxy ran on peoples personal computers. Dont use it for any thing where you require security.
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