JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Unfortunately, most services have limits. So why not just specify what the limits are? What's the big deal? | |
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 tpeng
join:2003-01-30
Forest Hills, NY
clubs: | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word ...Because forthright honesty is the greatest enemy of marketing  | |
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AtomicZero
join:2004-11-24
West Palm Beach, FL | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Honesty is actually best marketing tactic.People LOVE knowing what they are getting into, and appreciate the fact that you told them. It's only the enemy to the small minds of corrupt Marketing reps who can't wrap their heads around this concept. | |
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Industry_Pro
@rr.com
 from:
John Galt 
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Well, I don't know. My company hasn't used the word "unlimited" since, I think it was about 1997 or so. In the dialup business, we used to advertise "unlimited active use" meaning, you had to be sitting there. We had restrictions against using any software that acted as a keep alive to get around the 10 minute idle timeout. The timeout had to be 10 minutes becuase some email programs default to a 10 minute time between checking mail. So if your timeout is 15, some customers, even thought they did nothing to cause it, will never idle out.
At any rate, people only heard the word "unlimited" and forgot the "active use" part of it. There were often claims that they had nothing on their computer that was causing it to stay online. They would also say that "unlimited" meant you could stay on 24/7.
So we just dropped the word and have never used it again and I have to say, before you sit in judgement of the "evil" marketing types, try working the sales desk when caller after caller after caller would ask if the service was "unlimited" and we would say "No, it's 300 hours." You would just hear a kind of sigh or a silence, and they would say in a disappointed voice, "Oh - I thought it was unlimited. OK thank you!" and hang up. Which actually was OK with us, in our case - we pretty much had as many modems as we were ever going to buy and were out of growth mode pretty early on.
If you wanted to get out there and compete for customers, it would be wise to find a way to use the word "unlimited" - certainly you cannot be the only honest guy and have all your competitors laugh at you because you are telling the truth - and no one with sign up with you as a result.
In the DSL/Broadband/high speed access business I really kind of agree with the user who said, "It's all a scam." Because in a big, huge way, it is indeed all a scam. Huge numbers are mentioned for dowload speed. Yet, the slow upload is ignored in advertising and marketing. The speed is "70 faster than a modem" (roadrunner) only when you are downloading. They advertise, let's say 1.5 megabits for ADSL but in fact, that is not a guaranteed bit rate and all traffic is at most, "best effort". They fail to mention the level to which you are *sharing* that 1.5 megs or 5 megs or what have you. It's not like everyone has a personal fractional T3 from their house to the backbones and router meeting rooms. But you would never know that looking at the advertising that is being put out there. People are shown in the advertising doing all kinds of simultaneous high bandwidth things, when in fact if a high percentage of customers actually did all that, the network would just start to melt down and crawl. They don't mention that part of it.
There is a great deal of confusion in the marketplace as a result. Services with guaranted bit rates and SLA's are not valued in great volume by the market. They just aren't. Most people and even companies want a cheap "best effort" type service, then it's OK most of the time and they get to gripe about something the other percentage when it sucks.
So, in large part I blame the human nature of retail customers for the use of the word "unlimited" - they demand it against all rationality. It's not a rational or reasonable word as they've pointed out many times on BBR. And, I do think it's basically all a scam, but I also think a scam is what people want to hear. I truly think that most customers would rather gripe about their account not being truly "unlimited" than buy an account that advertises that it is not "unlimited." Also it should be pointed out, as the consumers and the FCC and all are apparently giving total encouragement to the market going to ONLY the cable company or ONLY the local Bell - well you can just expect the scams to continue unabated. These people know how to do it, and how to stay just on the edge of illegality. At a minimum they know how to judge risk where they can just pay off any fine that results as a cost of business. And since you will have no choice between ISP's - other than the cable companies and the Bells, there is no hope of anyone opening the marketplace to honest talk about how things really are.
I might add, I believe that the "broadband bill of rights" stuff where they government takes over ISP's and tells them how to run their business - I believe that is going to damage any chance of having any independent ISP's left in a few years. Other than backbone guys, and VPN guys, I mean. No last mile consumer type independents. The people behind this want to force the Bells and Cablecos to carry their VoIP traffic without toll, basically giving them a free ride on the network. But what the idea does is make all ISP's identical - every ISP carries the same exact traffic as every other ISP.
THAT will be the true death-knell for the independents. There will be no way to differentiate yourself from Bell except through pricing. If Bell and the MSO's would start jacking with their networks and making all kinds of channelized, filtered psuedo-'internet' access and disallow competitive VoIP and what have you, (assuming for argument that's even possible) then the independents would have a real selling point for their services. But if every ISP is just like every other ISP, well, it's a race to the basement. | |
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seen it
@sonnet.com
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Industry_pro is on the money. People buy the lie. They want the lie. If you won't lie, they will buy from someone who will. It's the irrational side of human behavior. Eventually the marketplace will lose interest and the lie can be quietly withdrawn. That is what is happening in this case.
"Yes Mrs. Sablowsky, this makeup makes you look 20 years younger!" | |
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AtomicZero
join:2004-11-24
West Palm Beach, FL
| dude you did nothing to defend your point and I'm not going to belabour this.... since you think/admit "it's a scam, but it's not our fault... cuz it's human nature and cuz it's what people/customers want to hear.." whatever sure...;);) whatever you say;);) | |
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Industry_Pro
@rr.com
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Hi AtomicZero,
Not trying to defend a point. Just stating the facts as I see them, and trying to give readers the benefit of almost 11 years of ISP ownership.
I, as well as most independents, are being edged out of the game with every passing day. So I feel comfortable critizing the majors. But I also think some of the readers of this board could better speak to some of the issues if they had some first hand experience at, ISP marketing or network engineering or sales or ISP services and technology.
So yeah, you are correct - what you and I wish and what is are two different things that are inconsistent. I guess that's marketing in a nutshell (thank you Oreilly).
Not really trying to make just one point, trying to help to the degree I can do so.
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rudnicke
Premium
join:2004-10-23
Rantoul, IL | Actually, people today really have no concept that lying or not disclosing the truth is no big deal.
If you can lie and get more customers, then it's ok in their eyes. | |
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entropy1
Premium
join:2002-09-25
 ·Millenicom
4 edits | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Cable...because I don't have a problem using all I want and I like cable better after having both.
I have WAY fewer problems with cable and faster speeds too!
As far as I know, Comcast doesn't send threat letters anymore. This is something dsl users seem to forget when they try to pull their "holier connection than thou" crap on here. Has anyone been capped by Comcast in the last year?
Edit: Typo | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| said by KAD Imaging :said by tpeng :...Because forthright honesty is the greatest enemy of marketing Bingo! TRULY UNLIMITED DSL Vs. MOSTLY "Umm..limited" Cable Which would you choose? Now this is where I have to get off. Truly unlimited DSL that actually delivered promissed speeds is one thing and as a matter of fact, a rare thing.
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Improve your wireless signal! | |
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BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by DaDogs :said by KAD Imaging :said by tpeng :...Because forthright honesty is the greatest enemy of marketing Bingo! TRULY UNLIMITED DSL Vs. MOSTLY "Umm..limited" Cable Which would you choose? Now this is where I have to get off. Truly unlimited DSL that actually delivered promissed speeds is one thing and as a matter of fact, a rare thing. you also forget that you have to be within a certan distance to get DSL.
my cable is uncapped/unrestricted has higher speed and costs less then most of the stuff i see in the states, why ?, because the company has a huge advantage over AT&T, it's mostly rural where i am. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by BonezX :said by DaDogs :said by KAD Imaging :said by tpeng :...Because forthright honesty is the greatest enemy of marketing Bingo! TRULY UNLIMITED DSL Vs. MOSTLY "Umm..limited" Cable Which would you choose? Now this is where I have to get off. Truly unlimited DSL that actually delivered promissed speeds is one thing and as a matter of fact, a rare thing. you also forget that you have to be within a certan distance to get DSL. my cable is uncapped/unrestricted has higher speed and costs less then most of the stuff i see in the states, why ?, because the company has a huge advantage over AT&T, it's mostly rural where i am. I didn't forget that DSL is distance sensitive. I am an ISP and have delivered both SDSL over bare copper and resold Verizon DSL.
Cable doesn't have the kind of distance limitation that DSL has but being rural isn't always helpful. The cable carrier in our area has more than 200 subs going thru a T-1 gateway. Clearly speed is relative
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Improve your wireless signal! | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by DaDogs :Cable doesn't have the kind of distance limitation that DSL has but being rural isn't always helpful. Just to clarify...cable has distance limitations also. It is related to the number of cascaded amplifiers in the chain.
There are technical means such as microwave to new headends to overcome this limitation, but the point is that it is not possible to have an "infinite" number of amps in a cascade.
Well, you can...it just won't work, that's all.
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A is A | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by John Galt :Well, you can...it just won't work, that's all. Hey John;
What is the limitation on cascaded amplifiers in a cable chain? How far can one go on one amp (generally) and how many amps are allowed in a chain?
Thanks
-m-
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jkreuzig
Whatever
join:2001-07-11
Yorba Linda, CA
| Now this is where I have to get off. Truly unlimited DSL that actually delivered promissed speeds is one thing and as a matter of fact, a rare thing. Probably not as rare as you might think. As long as you are within distance, and chose the CORRECT provider, getting unlimited DSL at promised speeds is not a problem.
Remember, it's all about the details. Read up on the details of what sort of DSL you are getting and you can easily get what you are looking for. | |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by jkreuzig :Now this is where I have to get off. Truly unlimited DSL that actually delivered promissed speeds is one thing and as a matter of fact, a rare thing. Probably not as rare as you might think. As long as you are within distance, and chose the CORRECT provider, getting unlimited DSL at promised speeds is not a problem. It is not difficult to get the link between you and the ILEC to run at advertized speeds. It is frequently a problem to get the thruput you are promissed thru the ILEC's gateways.
said by jkreuzig :Remember, it's all about the details. Read up on the details of what sort of DSL you are getting and you can easily get what you are looking for. Aye, understood. Good advice. Wireless is becoming a more viable option every day. My hope is to take down my DSL circuit and go to a wireless circuit to our tower.
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Improve your wireless signal! | |
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| | ke4pym
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC | CABLE. I don't want to pay extra for the phone line tax for a line I don't want, need or will otherwise use. | |
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Mactron
el Camino Real
Premium
join:2001-12-16
CM94sv
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by ke4pym :CABLE. I don't want to pay extra for the phone line tax for a line I don't want, need or will otherwise use. DSL. I don't want to pay extra for a Cable subscription I don't want, need, or be punished an extra cost for not having.
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If only the Verizon CSRs worked this well. | |
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ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Grafton, WV
clubs:
 ·VOIPo
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by Mactron :said by ke4pym :CABLE. I don't want to pay extra for the phone line tax for a line I don't want, need or will otherwise use. DSL. I don't want to pay extra for a Cable subscription I don't want, need, or be punished an extra cost for not having. No, you are just forced to pay for that POTS line from the xLEC that you do not want. If you are not lucky enough to have someone like Covad or Speakeasy and the like to provide you naked DSL.
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FWD#: 223611 | |
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entropy1
Premium
join:2002-09-25 | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Then you pay out the ass anyway with those companies. | |
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entropy1
Premium
join:2002-09-25 | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Oh...you're one of those who chooses an isp based on what "extras" they offer, sort of like AOL style. I tend to go more for the connection. I just subscribe to my own choice of newsgroup access. | |
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KAD Imaging
Just Shoot It
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Hialeah, FL
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by entropy1 :Oh...you're one of those who chooses an isp based on what "extras" they offer, sort of like AOL style. I tend to go more for the connection. I just subscribe to my own choice of newsgroup access. Uh, no. Newsgroup access is part of the package. BS is fully unlimited whereas Crapcast limits you to 2GB and CAPS throughput to like 3KB or something ludicrously small.
Your welcome to pay all the extra money you want for newsgroup access.
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-CK
Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't gone to sleep yet...
Like Cars? Racing?? Visit my site! SportCompactMiami.com | |
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entropy1
Premium
join:2002-09-25 | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word I've experienced no "capping" of throughput whatsoever. Also, I've found that the access I pay for is far superior to any free access I've gotten with any isp over the years...unlimited or not...be it dsl or cable. | |
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itguy35
@mo.chart
| $64 = DSL wins? for NO TV SERVICE? You can take that same $68 cable package and add voip for $25/month and have everything a home user needs. Your $64 DSL option doesn't include any tv content at all - that math is about as fuzzy as a TELCO's. And as far as cable being "inferior to satellite" here in MO, if a person were to so much as as sneeze on their dish or the sky gets cloudy, you might as well plan on having a fuzzy SATV picture. I have many friends with the "more cost effective" SATV and i will take my cable any day of the week. Especially since i have 5 meg Charter pipeline (consistent at 4.7mb) and 7 TVs in the house. Oh BTW, Charter's customer service runs circles around SBC in this area. I've used everything from Wireless, to DSL, and now cable and I'm staying with cable. | |
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KAD Imaging
Just Shoot It
Premium
join:2002-09-21
Hialeah, FL
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word said by itguy35 :
$64 = DSL wins? for NO TV SERVICE? You can take that same $68 cable package and add voip for $25/month and have everything a home user needs. Your $64 DSL option doesn't include any tv content at all - that math is about as fuzzy as a TELCO's. And as far as cable being "inferior to satellite" here in MO, if a person were to so much as as sneeze on their dish or the sky gets cloudy, you might as well plan on having a fuzzy SATV picture. I have many friends with the "more cost effective" SATV and i will take my cable any day of the week. Especially since i have 5 meg Charter pipeline (consistent at 4.7mb) and 7 TVs in the house. Oh BTW, Charter's customer service runs circles around SBC in this area. I've used everything from Wireless, to DSL, and now cable and I'm staying with cable.
I'll just quote a previous post when I listed a my cable and dsl setups..
said by Me :
BS DSL Ultra (1.5)
Complete Choice = $30
Emergency LD Plan = $1.99
Extreme DSL = $35
TOTAL = $67 (+ taxes/fees = $75)
CRAPCAST Cable
Standard Package = $49 (81 ch Analog)
Digital Classic = $56 (127+ ch)
TOTAL = $49
(DVR = $10/mo)
$75 + $49 = $124
Current:
BS DSL Extreme (3.0)
Complete Choice = $30
Emergency LD Plan = $1.99
Extreme DSL = $45
TOTAL = $77 (+ taxes/fees = $85)
Direct TV
TOTAL Choice Plus (150+ ch Digital) = $45.99
BS Answers Disount = -$4.99
TOTAL = $41.99
(DVR = $4.99/mo)
$85 + $42 = $127
So for $3 more per month I doubled my DSL speed and am getting 30 more DIGITAL channels plus there's no rental fee for the a box. CRAPCAST sucks "a big fat donkey d***!!!"
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-CK
Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't gone to sleep yet...
Like Cars? Racing?? Visit my site! SportCompactMiami.com | |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Yeah,
That's one of the reasons I'm currently with DSL Extreme. I don't have Commiecast caps (I use my connection for constant VPN to work), and I'm not (or at least don't appear to be) throttled, and its relatively inexpensive. | |
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | Re: "Unlimited" is a BEAUTIFUL Word Ignorance is bliss | |
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Shriyash
Sungazer
Premium
join:2005-02-23
PuNe, InDiA
1 edit | because when we see how limited these self-decided limits are, we will suddenly realise that they are trying to rip us off, thats why. they already know it, but we dont, and they dont want us to know either.
ignorance is bliss for a reason.
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When you gaze deep into an Abyss,.....the Abyss also gazes into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) | |
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