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iSEPIC
join:2001-04-17
Las Vegas, NV
| reply to markosjal
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
BS - if its advertised as unlimited, then you should get that, doesn't matter if they are "banking" on most people will pay for unlimited and only make 200 mins worth of calls, then one customer does indeed go over what they were "banking" on... they need to sell 2500 min plans, and be done with it. Nuff said. | |
iSEPIC
join:2001-04-17
Las Vegas, NV | reply to rileyjam514
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
BS - If there is a limit, then don't advertise "unlimited", nuff said. | |
cyberbird
join:2004-03-25
Schaumburg, IL
| reply to hilsonmota
i m a happy user of vonage for last few years,i dont remember vonage had any outage at least for me and no billing errors/problems. i m currently on 14$/500min plan and was thinking to port my number to broadvoice for there 20$ plan. now after going through yours posts i m not sure if i m going to do that but wondering what if one just makes about 2000 minute family calls to US and Canada only, do they still consider it as biz use?
why they got these awards and why no one catch them for misleading people? | |
NENO
join:2005-12-02
Miami, FL
| reply to hilsonmota
BROADVOICE is indeed the sneakiest company I have ever dealt with. They bravely advertise UNLMITED CALLS TO 35 COUNTRIES and it is so untrue. If you exceed their hidden threshold of $25.00 worth in calls they will arbitrarily charge your credit card an exorbitant amount and send you a letter after, which totally contradicts their advertising. I called them in disbelief and they keep telling me I am using the phone for business, which is not true and they know it. What kind of business only calls before 08:30am and after 07:00pm? What kind of business only calls the same 10 or 12 international numbers over and over again? It is obvious that I am calling the same family and friends out of the country when I and my wife are not at work (off business hours). Well, they charged my credit card $162.00 for a single month bill and they did the same to several of my friends. Some were charged in excess of $300.00. I understand that I, and many of my friends, did make many and long international calls, but if you cant deliver what you promise then dont offer it at all. SIMPLY A RIP OFF and a SCANDALOUS CASE OF MISREPRESENTATION!!!!! | |
NENO
join:2005-12-02
Miami, FL
| reply to Mechano
I know what you mean. BROADVOICE is indeed the sneakiest company I have ever delt with. They bravely advertise UNLMITED CALLS TO 35 COUNTRIES and it is so untrue. If you exceed their hidden threshold of $25.00 worth in calls they will arbitrarily charge your credit card an exorbitant amount and send you a letter after, which totally contradicts their advertising. They charged me $162.00 for a single month bill and they did the same to several of my friends. Some were charged in excess of $300.00. I understand that I, and many of my friends, did make an excessive amount of inteernational calls, but if you cant deliver what you promise then dont offer it at all. SIMPLY A RIP OFF and a SCANDALOUS CASE OF MISREPRESENTATION!!!!! | |
happyvalley
join:2005-03-21 | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
hi, hilsonmota
some news on your case. | |
LegalEagle
@comcast.net
| reply to JonR800
Re: BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone calls
BV Ad |
| |
joako
Premium
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
CALL YOUR CREDIT CARD COMPANY NOW!!!!! | |
DanielFaclon
@rr.com
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
I would just like to state that Broadvoice is screwing me the same way. I use this service to call my girlfriend, only, at the same number in Germany, and I have since March. Then with a day before warning email, I was switched to the Unlimited Business and they were trying to charge me $56. I have canceled and complained and now they are charging me $100. I have tried to reach their customer service and cannot get a hold of them, phone calls and emails. I tried to log into my account so as to see where they think all that money is being charged for, but my user name no longer works. I have already registered a complaint with the Better Business Beruea and filed a complaint to the Attorney General's Office as BBB instructed me to do. | |
JonR800
Premium
join:2003-08-06
Farmington, MI
| reply to hilsonmota
This all comes down to one thing: money.
A number of VOIP providers are offering services at prices that they can't maintain. Once a user starts costing them money, most likely in consecutive months, they pull the plug. If they really want to offer unlimited services they need to up the price for everyone in order to cover the heavier users. Otherwise if at the current price they can only offer the user 2000 minutes before taking a loss, then they need to set that as the clearly defined limit!
This whole pseudo unlimited bit just keeps going. I really hope it either dies out or someone puts an end to it. | |
prestonlewis
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-13
Sacramento, CA
 ·VoiceStick
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
Pretty much all VOIP providers do have limits on "unlimited" calling, especially to international numbers since they cost so much more than US/CN calling. I've seen complaints about P8 and others also capping "unlimited" calling by home users so your complaint isn't just concerning BV but seems to be a VOIP general problem.
Ignoring the VOIP providers looking for "commercial" use of a VOIP service, I'd say 4,000 minutes is a reasonable number for them to expect a high user to use. My 3 teens and I have used around 4,000 minutes/month for local calling and some long distance calling to US numbers. Usually, it's under 2,000 but it can be over 4,000 sometimes. I also don't like the use of the word "unlimited" but they do usually have an asterisk with some fine print mentioning average home usage as being their definition of unlimited. International calling is expensive and expecting them to offer unlimited minutes is ridiculous although they shouldn't advertise it either, in my opinion.
Also the OP's original assertions of BV having financial problems is bogus. They are owned by a large parent corp and are not "running out of money" as he claims. Also, the OP's quotes of BV's emails to him using words like "scheme" do not ring true. US companies never use the word scheme. British companies do but it has a different meaning for them. These types of problems with the OPs post makes his argument less acceptable to me since I know BV has no financial problems and is very, very unlikely to use the word scheme in any email message to customers. How many other mistakes are in his posts? However, his basic argument about unlimited calls not being unlimited is a sound argument but isn't limited to just BV. | |
WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| reply to mykey2k
To reprise (and condense) some comments I made in a similar thread many months ago:
The thing to consider is, first, what does a company say in their advertising? If, for example, they have a residential plan and they use the word UNLIMITED in their advertising, then if they are not really offering UNLIMITED service it is false advertising and consumer fraud, and they are lying to potential customers in their advertising. We can always hope that companies that do this will soon be on the receiving end of actions instituted by the Federal Trade Commission and/or the attorney generals of the various states.
The word unlimited has a very specific meaning. If it were an ambiguous word or phrase, like "a real bargain compared to other services", then the company's terms of service could clarify the offer. But when a word with a very specific and clear meaning is used in advertising, then the fine print cannot take away what the large print promises.
As another poster pointed out in an earlier thread, when there is an ambiguity in a legal contract (and in a court, the advertising often IS considered part of the contract, especially in consumer matters), the ambiguity is usually resolved in such a way as to favor the person who did not participate in the creation of the contract (the consumer).
No one disputes that companies have a right to verify that a customer really is using a residential service for residential purposes. But, a provision buried in the Terms of Service may not necessarily override what is boldly proclaimed in advertising. A long time ago in this country, companies used to promise the moon in advertising and then take it all back in the fine print, and that is why various truth-in-advertising and other consumer protection laws were passed. This does NOT give a customer the right to screw the company by signing up for a residential plan and then using it to run a home-based telemarketing operation, but when the calls really are residential in nature then if the company has advertised "unlimited" service and then tries to pull the sort of things that have been described here, my advice would to be to contact your state's Attorney General post haste.
For those that like to skim messages and jump to conclusions, please note that I said "contact your state's Attorney General", NOT "contact an attorney." Realistically, no one is suggesting that an individual file a lawsuit, it simply would not be worth the time and expense, and in most cases you wouldn't need to because you can get the credit card charges reversed. However, STATE attorney generals will often file lawsuits on behalf of all the consumers in a state and these are very often complaint-driven. In other words, if you and 50 or 100 other people contact your state's AG about the same company, he or she may actually go after that company. If it were me, I would personally send my complaint to the AG's office with a copy to the Federal Trade Commission (the FTC complaint can be filed through a web-based complaint form).
On the rare occasion that I have had to contact my state's AG office regarding a consumer dispute, it has always generated some action. Normally the first thing that happens is that a letter is sent to the business in question outlining the complaint, and the business has the opportunity to correct the problem (and respond to the AG's office explaining how they corrected the problem). If they do correct the problem and the customer is happy, it goes into the file associated with that business at the AG's office but otherwise nothing is shouted from the rooftops. As long as the person who brought the complaint is satisfied, that is pretty much the end of it. If there's a serious violation of law and the company admits to it I think there is sometimes a small fine levied, but nothing near what would be levied if the company refuses to acknowledge or correct the problem.
Some folks try to say that a company can't offer truly unlimited service and survive. Well if they can't, then they shouldn't be advertising it, but the point is that they are playing the averages, just like an all-you-can-eat restaurant. My comments from earlier this year expand on those thoughts.
And yes, I did selectively cut and paste a high percentage of the text in this message from several other messages I had previously written a while back. Why re-type when you want to say the same thing you said months ago, particularly at 2:20 in the morning?  | |
mykey2k
join:2001-11-19
Aurora, IL
| reply to markosjal
said by markosjal  :If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you. Back in my dial-up days, I had unlimited dial-up. The players:
1) My ISP. They marketed it as unlimited.
2) My Telco. I paid 5 cents per call, no matter the duration... 1 second or 2 months.
3) Me. Who was always doing "something" online.
The results:
1) They never complained. I paid them my $25 a month.
2) They never complained. I did indeed have a phone call last 2 months.
3) I never complained. I paid my telco and my ISP.
The point is, whenever you buy something, you weigh the plusses and minusses. Some things I have noticed:
Why do I not lease a car? I put on over 20,000 miles a year on it. By buying, I can say I get unlimited mileage. When you lease a car, they tell you the "limit".
My cell phone has unlimited nights and weekends. Peak minutes are "limited" to 450. I know the limit.
"Free refills" at a restaurant means "more than one" compared to a restaurant that says "Limit 1 refill"
All-U-Can eat restaurants. They have no limit, in theory. I ate at a sushi buffet for 3 hours and no one complained.
In the end, a business needs to weigh the people who will take advantage of the system offered to them implemented; and those that barely use it. For every one of me in all these circumstances, there are those who are on the other side of the spectrum -- outliers in statistical terms.
We as consumers didn't come up with their pricing scheme: They did, and they have a legal obligation to stick by it.
-m | |
anonymous Joe
@cisco.com
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
They do scam....
I know several people who used their service with 2500 3000+ minutes and got automatically upgraded to the Business Plan having to play ~300 dollars in retroactive charges...
Be very careful guys!!!!!!!!!
Really scamming people who really use their service a lot, therefore if you are not generating profit for them, you will get upgraded, just a matter of time...
Good luck with your small court claims!!!
Anonymous Joe - Boston | |
stevech1
join:2005-01-08
1 edit | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
2500 minutes in "consecutive months" - assuming that means TWO months, comes out to be 41 minutes per day.
My wife does that, on average per month, since we moved away from our home city and all friends/family are there.
So, I guess it's the service provider's right to define and set a limit. They did put in in writing. So you don't have a leg to stand on, I say. Other providers don't define the criteria in specifics.
I don't know about the false advertising. Seems like in the US companies can lie all they want in the marketing and hide behind their contractual fine print, and the courts let them do so. | |
SliderNC
Master Of Disaster
Premium
join:2002-12-12
Cornelius, NC
clubs: 
 ·Windstream
| reply to markosjal
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
I think a lot of it depends on how you view unlimited residential calling and how they determine it. I'm sure their engineers run some queries to see when, where and how long you are calling. The point of the matter is, it is not that hard to use 2000 minutes these days of phone time, especially with teenagers, calling family and friends, and just general local use. I know last month on Sunrocket, I used close to 1500 minutes. My wife and I are both not home between the hours of 7:30am-6:30pm either. All of our calls happen from 7:00PM until 2:00AM most of the time, except for weekends when we call at various times.
Rizzo has the right idea with his first choice. Prove that he is not a residential customer, dispute the charges, leave Broadvoice and find another company to use. Broadvoice was probably losing money on him due to his family calling Brazil often and for long periods of time, whether during business hours or not.
The fact of the matter is, for those companies who advertise and sell an "Unlimited Residential Plan", and then in the ToS state that you are limited to "so many minutes" per month, it is false advertising and illegal. If it's a limited plan, come out and say it. I bet you no one would really care. If they said you get 2500 minutes for 19.99/month, I'm sure they'd still get people to sign up.
--
I'll believe that when my sh!t turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.
My LiveJournal | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| reply to markosjal
said by markosjal :I know if I had a client that was using over 2000 minutes for three months consecutively, I would say that was clearly being used for business use, chatty teenagers or not! You might say that, but it doesn't mean its true!
said by markosjal :What you call Unlimited is UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL. Exactly. It is UNLIMITED as long as the calls are RESIDENTIAL in nature!
Chatty teenagers is RESIDENTIAL use. Chatting with your boyfriend/girlfriend every evening for several hours is RESIDENTIAL use. Even being "retired", and thereby having the time to talk to friends/family all day is RESIDENTIAL use!
If a company selling service doesn't actually want to honor the "UNLIMITED" part of their marketing, then they need to change their marketing! For example, there is nothing preventing a business from setting a specific number of minutes, and advertising that fact (for example, selling a plan that allows up to 1500min/month for a fixed price). Cell companies do it all the time, for example.
But it is IMHO "false advertising" to market an "UNLIMITED residential" service, and then determine solely based upon the number of minutes used that the service wasn't used for "residential" purposes! Because there are many LEGITIMATE reasons why a RESIDENTIAL user might use that many minutes (or more)!
Now, if you want to set a "threshold" of of x minutes/month (for example 2000) setting off an internal "investigation" fine. I have no problem with a business cross-checking for "fraud" (in this case, checking for customers that buy residential service, and then use it to run a small business). But as long as the investigation shows that it was likely true "residential use", than the customer should continue to get that service AT THE AGREED UPON PRICE even if/when they are routinely using 5000+ minutes/month!
said by markosjal :If you want to use volume, they are right to protect their revenue and charge you for business service. ONLY IF they are upfront about the fact that residential users don't have UNLIMITED service (subject to the calls really being "residential" in nature).
But when they "protect their revenue" by blindly "back-billing" a customer for "business service" AFTER advertising "UNLIMITED residential" service (which most reasonable people would interpret as service they can use as much as they want, provided the calls are "residential" in nature), then they have stepped "over the line" IMHO.
NOTE: "Protecting your revenue" is not always legally permitted, when you have already made promises of specific service for an agreed upon price. As just one obvious example, an "insurance company" takes "losses" every time a major claim is filed. But if the claim is valid, than the insurance company has to "pay up" (take the loss of money), instead of "protecting their revenue" by denying a valid claim. Yes, the insurance company is allowed to "investigate" what is going on, and they are even allowed to deny the claim if/when there was fraud involved, but they can't just deny the claim to "protect their revenue"!
said by markosjal :Let us assiume that they terminate at 1 cent per minute and you pay the, 20 dollars a month. By using 2000 minutes per month, you have taken them to a point of losing money, as they also have costs associated for instance with your incoming number. Could be.
But if that's a problem, then they need to change their marketing so that they are no longer PROMISING something that is too costly to deliver. But to PROMISE one thing, and then not deliver, is not considered acceptable business behavior!
said by markosjal :If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you. My "unlimited local" service, is truly "unlimited" (as long as I use it in the agreed upon "local" manor). I have NEVER been hassled by my telco for the number of inbound calls I've been on the phone under that plan. If the call is inbound, I have it as part of my "unlimited" service. At the same time, if the call is outbound (within the "local region" that I'm allowed to make "unlimited" calls in), then the call is still free.
For that matter, I keep my "unlimited" DSL line up 24/7 (my router forces the line to stay active). Does that mean that I might be using more internet than someone who uses the "connect when needed" software that came with my BroadBand service? You bet! But I still haven't heard a "peep" out of CentryTel (both my POTS telco, and my ISP) about me using my "unlimited" DSL line as "unlimited". And you know why? Because I'm simply more of a "heavy user" of the service that they agreed to sell me for a specific price!
The point is, if you promise "unlimited", you need to prepare to deliver that. If that means that some users will be "heavy users", you need to factor that into your cost estimates (or change your marketing). But it is NOT OK to market "unlimited" and then harass "heavy users" that are legitimately using your "unlimited" service!
said by markosjal :I think you would find similar attitudes with every carrier such as Vonage, Lingo, or Packet 8. No.
That issue has been discussed in these forums in the past. And with most of the carriers that it came up with, they admitted that they had a specific (private) minute threshold where they would "investigate" (look at the call log pattern, call the customer and ask, etc) if the calls were still "residential" in nature. But as long as the investigation showed that the calls were "residential", they would "eat the loss" (on that specific customer), and continue to offer them their agreed upon "unlimited residential" service. | |
SaladSpoon
join:2004-10-09 | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
Fact remains it is not Unlimited. Don't call it that. Because it's just not Unlimited, it's very limited.
2,000 minutes is only about 4% of an average months total minutes. | |
markosjal
join:2005-08-06
Mexico
| reply to hilsonmota
Most VoIP Providers have a limit on unlimited residential whether it is published or not.
Furthermore most evry VoIP providers TOS that I have read through has had a statement to the effect that they reserve the right to change rate plans or deny services to any account the see deem as losing money (and they alone).
I know if I had a client that was using over 2000 minutes for three months consecutively, I would say that was clearly being used for business use, chatty teenagers or not!
What you call Unlimited is UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL. If you want to use volume, they are right to protect their revenue and charge you for business service.
Let us assiume that they terminate at 1 cent per minute and you pay the, 20 dollars a month. By using 2000 minutes per month, you have taken them to a point of losing money, as they also have costs associated for instance with your incoming number.
If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you.
All you will do by using that kind of volume is increase the costs for all users.
I think you would find similar attitudes with every carrier such as Vonage, Lingo, or Packet 8. | |
rizzo2dial
Premium
join:2004-08-05
| reply to hilsonmota
hilsonmota,
1) Dispute the charges with your credit card issuer. As soon as you demonstrate false advertising, that should be the end of the dispute in your favor.
2) Cancel your BV service.
3) Find another VoIP provider.
THE END.
-or-
Take BV to court and hope to reach a settlement a few years down the road.
Rizzo | |
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