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mykey2k
join:2001-11-19
Aurora, IL
| reply to Big Dawg 23
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
I perused their TOS a couple days ago. This is really the only area that BV could reference. Nothing in there I can see about their unwritten rule... of course I didn't look at the html source. 
Quoteth from »www.broadvoice.com/terms.html
Last Updated: April 12, 2005
1.3.1 Residential Use of Service
If you have subscribed to BroadVoice's Residential services, the Service is provided to you as a single usage (user) residential plan, for your own personal, residential, non-business and non-professional use. This means that you agree not to use, and may not use, the Service for any commercial activities, governmental activities, profit-making activities, and/or non-profit activities, including but not limited to home office, business, sales, tele-commuting, tele-marketing, auto-dialing, continuous or extensive call forwarding, call relaying, fax broadcast, fax blasting and any other activity that would be inconsistent with normal residential usage patterns. This also means that you agree not to, and may not, sell, resell or transfer the Service to any other person for any purpose, or make any charge for the use of the Service, without the prior express written permission from BroadVoice. You agree that if BroadVoice determines in its sole discretion that you have used the Service, and/or anyone else has used the Service for any activities and purposes prohibited by this section it may immediately charge you BroadVoice's higher rates for its Business service for all periods, including past periods, in which you use, or used, the Service for such prohibited activities together with a US$100.00 administrative fee for same, and that BroadVoice may immediately charge such amounts on your credit card. BroadVoice reserves the right to immediately terminate or modify the Service, if BroadVoice determines, in its sole discretion, that Customer's Service is being used for such prohibited activities or in any other manner prohibited by this Agreement. | |
Luis442
@mindspring.com | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
the same with me!!!
$300,00!!!
Luis | |
iconnor
join:2004-07-09
Concord, MA
| Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
It does seem odd to me how they can really give unlimited plans like this. I know some free phone conference solutions make money on the termination charge (so calling the USA does cost something and is not free) and in Australia there is a fee for each phone call (so this is also not free but the length of the call is not charged if local). So it does not make sense that a company could make money on an unlimited plan unless they count on people not using the phone.
It should be illegal to advertise this service as unlimited and then burry in the fine print all these terms. Forbidding non-profit use for instance is an easy violation for me as a volunteer at the local PEG access TV station - if I make one call to the station to check on something that would violate the terms and that doesn't enter into working from home here and there. | |
Gaff
Every Villain Is Lemons
join:1999-09-05
Mineral Wells, TX
clubs:
 ·AT&T Southwest
 ·Suddenlink
2 edits | said by iconnor  :It should be illegal to advertise this service as unlimited and then burry in the fine print all these terms. It is.
I personally was considering going with BV for my first VoIP experience, but after reading that 14-page thread on Voxilla there is no way in hell I would touch them with a 10-foot pole now. | |
iconnor
join:2004-07-09
Concord, MA | Got a link to that thread you can post? thanks heaps... would be an interesting thread to read probably. | |
Gaff
Every Villain Is Lemons
join:1999-09-05
Mineral Wells, TX
clubs: | Was linked earlier in this thread: »voxilla.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4788.html | |
damianstaro
join:2005-10-11
Roswell, GA
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
I had the same problem and I complained in the following websites:
www.ifccfbi.org
www.bbb.org
I suggest you guys do the same.
BroadVoice has to be careful. They are pissing off a lot of people. It wouldn't be a surprise if a handful of hackers started issuing a denial of serice attack against the web sites and voice services.
Also, I would expect them to be fined bigtime for their potentially ilegal "policies" | |
rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ
| reply to hilsonmota
No, you aren't being ripped off. Business plans are given high rate limits for a reason - because business does not stop at the end of the business day, and during the business day there is a high demand for usage.
As a residential customer, if you were using a regular landline phone in this manner, your provider would see it and do the same thing that Broadvoice is doing - switch you up to a higher rate plan because you are violating the TOS.
Residential customers are called residential customers because it is assumed that you will not use more than a certain amount of calls for any given calling period. Contrary to popular belief, every phone company has a limit on what its systems can handle without an outage. The bar is higher for some than for others, but there is always a limit.
Business customers are assumed to continuously use the phone at "peak" hours (typically workdays between 9-5) but also allocated system usage at other points during the week. Residential customers are assumed to use the phone sporadically during the 9-5 period and more often during the evenings and weekends.
Phone companies, landline and VoIP alike, set up their usage plans in advance with these criteria in mind. If they see that you're using more than they had anticipated, that means you're draining that portion of their system's resources and making it harder for other customers to use their service. In order to keep you as a customer, instead of simply disconnecting your service, they move you onto a Business plan so that you are not taking up resources they had previously allocated elsewhere.
These plans, as I mentioned before, are based on usage patterns, and also what kind of traffic particular servers can handle. Most providers (again, this cuts across the board, landline and VoIP) have two systems set up to handle the different calls from their customers - one for business customers which is built to handle commercial-grade phone traffic, and one for residential customers, which is solidly built but can only handle a limited amount of traffic. Essentially, when they move you over to a Business plan, they are switching the path your voice traffic takes over to a system designed to handle the pressure you're putting on the system.
They aren't trying to gyp you. They're trying to help you. | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| said by rileyjam514 :No, you aren't being ripped off. Business plans are given high rate limits for a reason - because business does not stop at the end of the business day, and during the business day there is a high demand for usage. That may be the THEORY that a company bases their rates upon. BUT that theory doesn't match every true "residential user". For example, some families have "chatty teenagers".
And if enough true "residential users" don't fit that theory, the company needs to be upfront in changing their rates to something that matches reality. But its not OK to SLAM "residential" users into "business rates", simply because the user believed the advertising that they were buying UNLIMITED residential calling for one monthly fee!!!
said by rileyjam514 :As a residential customer, if you were using a regular landline phone in this manner, your provider would see it and do the same thing that Broadvoice is doing - switch you up to a higher rate plan because you are violating the TOS. What TOS violation?!?
If you are using the phone for a home business, yes you are violating the TOS of a "residential" account. But if/when you just have a "chatty family", you are NOT violating the TOS of an "unlimited" residential account. Instead, you are just a heavy user of the service.
Now I know that any company you do that with, will likely SEE (in their call logs) that you are a "heavy user". And they might even start an "investigation" to see if you are really using your account (fraudulently) to run a business on. But as long as their investigation shows that you are NOT violating their TOS (i.e. your calls are RESIDENTIAL in nature), a reputable business will "suck it up" and eat the costs of you as a "heavy customer"!
In fact, to do anything else is likely "false advertising"...
said by rileyjam514 :Residential customers are called residential customers because it is assumed that you will not use more than a certain amount of calls for any given calling period. It doesn't matter how "chatty" a telco ASSUMES that a "residential customer" will be! If they are using the line for actual "residential use" (i.e. talking to friends, family, etc), they are using the line for "residential use".
And if that means a "residential user" uses enough minutes on their "unlimited phone line" to cause the telco to lose money (on that specific user), than that is just "tuff s@#t". If too many of their customers are "chatty", the business always has the option to raise their rates, or stop advertising "unlimited" (and instead put a specific monthly limit on their service).
BUT, it is NOT OK for a business to advertise "unlimited" service, and then refuse to deliver on that promise!
NOTE: I agree that it is fraudulent of a customer to sign up for a "residential" account, and use it for "business purposes" (such as running a home based business). But it is perfectly proper for a "residential user" to sign up with an "unlimited residential account" and then talk for several hours with family every day! If that means that the telco (or in this case a VoIP company) providing the service loses money on that customer, than that company needs to change their marketing plan (or change their rates). But until/unless they do, that company needs to deliver what the customer bought (i.e. "unlimited residential service").
NOTE: I'm not a lawyer. However, it is my understanding that SLAMMING genuine (albeit "chatty") residential users to expensive "business rates" can be considered FRAUD. And I have heard of state AGs suing companies for "false advertising", when they fail to deliver what they advertised to the customer...
said by rileyjam514 :They aren't trying to gyp you. They're trying to help you. No! They are NOT trying to help the customer!
It sounds to me like they are trying to help their "bottom line", by using practices that are dubious at best, and outright illegal (false advertising) at worst!
I'm just glad I never signed up with this particular VoIP company.... | |
ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
I personally would love to see the "magic formula" some VOIP providers use to determine the difference between residential and business plans...
Sounds like Broadvoice is just out to make their money and run... | |
Skywise
join:2004-03-26
Portland, OR
 ·Packet8
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
I assume that the call patterns matter alot. Calls to many different numbers between 9-5 M-F is pretty obvious business. Most residential customers use their phone primarily after 5pm and call a limited amount of numbers.
In regards to the 'scam' - I don't think its a scam, but its false advertisement. You could probably get them in trouble over that, but seriously, is that effort worth the $300 for you? You can probably get them to stop, you won't get a 30k settlement out of a false advertisement claim. Switch providers, but keep in mind that most companies have somekind of limit - some CC companies let you dynamically create virtual credit card numbers on which you can set a specific limit every month, something like that would at least protect you against the random $300 charge. | |
rizzo2dial
Premium
join:2004-08-05
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
hilsonmota,
1) Dispute the charges with your credit card issuer. As soon as you demonstrate false advertising, that should be the end of the dispute in your favor.
2) Cancel your BV service.
3) Find another VoIP provider.
THE END.
-or-
Take BV to court and hope to reach a settlement a few years down the road.
Rizzo | |
markosjal
join:2005-08-06
Mexico
| reply to hilsonmota
Most VoIP Providers have a limit on unlimited residential whether it is published or not.
Furthermore most evry VoIP providers TOS that I have read through has had a statement to the effect that they reserve the right to change rate plans or deny services to any account the see deem as losing money (and they alone).
I know if I had a client that was using over 2000 minutes for three months consecutively, I would say that was clearly being used for business use, chatty teenagers or not!
What you call Unlimited is UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL. If you want to use volume, they are right to protect their revenue and charge you for business service.
Let us assiume that they terminate at 1 cent per minute and you pay the, 20 dollars a month. By using 2000 minutes per month, you have taken them to a point of losing money, as they also have costs associated for instance with your incoming number.
If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you.
All you will do by using that kind of volume is increase the costs for all users.
I think you would find similar attitudes with every carrier such as Vonage, Lingo, or Packet 8. | |
SaladSpoon
join:2004-10-09 | reply to hilsonmota
Fact remains it is not Unlimited. Don't call it that. Because it's just not Unlimited, it's very limited.
2,000 minutes is only about 4% of an average months total minutes. | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| reply to markosjal
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
said by markosjal :I know if I had a client that was using over 2000 minutes for three months consecutively, I would say that was clearly being used for business use, chatty teenagers or not! You might say that, but it doesn't mean its true!
said by markosjal :What you call Unlimited is UNLIMITED RESIDENTIAL. Exactly. It is UNLIMITED as long as the calls are RESIDENTIAL in nature!
Chatty teenagers is RESIDENTIAL use. Chatting with your boyfriend/girlfriend every evening for several hours is RESIDENTIAL use. Even being "retired", and thereby having the time to talk to friends/family all day is RESIDENTIAL use!
If a company selling service doesn't actually want to honor the "UNLIMITED" part of their marketing, then they need to change their marketing! For example, there is nothing preventing a business from setting a specific number of minutes, and advertising that fact (for example, selling a plan that allows up to 1500min/month for a fixed price). Cell companies do it all the time, for example.
But it is IMHO "false advertising" to market an "UNLIMITED residential" service, and then determine solely based upon the number of minutes used that the service wasn't used for "residential" purposes! Because there are many LEGITIMATE reasons why a RESIDENTIAL user might use that many minutes (or more)!
Now, if you want to set a "threshold" of of x minutes/month (for example 2000) setting off an internal "investigation" fine. I have no problem with a business cross-checking for "fraud" (in this case, checking for customers that buy residential service, and then use it to run a small business). But as long as the investigation shows that it was likely true "residential use", than the customer should continue to get that service AT THE AGREED UPON PRICE even if/when they are routinely using 5000+ minutes/month!
said by markosjal :If you want to use volume, they are right to protect their revenue and charge you for business service. ONLY IF they are upfront about the fact that residential users don't have UNLIMITED service (subject to the calls really being "residential" in nature).
But when they "protect their revenue" by blindly "back-billing" a customer for "business service" AFTER advertising "UNLIMITED residential" service (which most reasonable people would interpret as service they can use as much as they want, provided the calls are "residential" in nature), then they have stepped "over the line" IMHO.
NOTE: "Protecting your revenue" is not always legally permitted, when you have already made promises of specific service for an agreed upon price. As just one obvious example, an "insurance company" takes "losses" every time a major claim is filed. But if the claim is valid, than the insurance company has to "pay up" (take the loss of money), instead of "protecting their revenue" by denying a valid claim. Yes, the insurance company is allowed to "investigate" what is going on, and they are even allowed to deny the claim if/when there was fraud involved, but they can't just deny the claim to "protect their revenue"!
said by markosjal :Let us assiume that they terminate at 1 cent per minute and you pay the, 20 dollars a month. By using 2000 minutes per month, you have taken them to a point of losing money, as they also have costs associated for instance with your incoming number. Could be.
But if that's a problem, then they need to change their marketing so that they are no longer PROMISING something that is too costly to deliver. But to PROMISE one thing, and then not deliver, is not considered acceptable business behavior!
said by markosjal :If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you. My "unlimited local" service, is truly "unlimited" (as long as I use it in the agreed upon "local" manor). I have NEVER been hassled by my telco for the number of inbound calls I've been on the phone under that plan. If the call is inbound, I have it as part of my "unlimited" service. At the same time, if the call is outbound (within the "local region" that I'm allowed to make "unlimited" calls in), then the call is still free.
For that matter, I keep my "unlimited" DSL line up 24/7 (my router forces the line to stay active). Does that mean that I might be using more internet than someone who uses the "connect when needed" software that came with my BroadBand service? You bet! But I still haven't heard a "peep" out of CentryTel (both my POTS telco, and my ISP) about me using my "unlimited" DSL line as "unlimited". And you know why? Because I'm simply more of a "heavy user" of the service that they agreed to sell me for a specific price!
The point is, if you promise "unlimited", you need to prepare to deliver that. If that means that some users will be "heavy users", you need to factor that into your cost estimates (or change your marketing). But it is NOT OK to market "unlimited" and then harass "heavy users" that are legitimately using your "unlimited" service!
said by markosjal :I think you would find similar attitudes with every carrier such as Vonage, Lingo, or Packet 8. No.
That issue has been discussed in these forums in the past. And with most of the carriers that it came up with, they admitted that they had a specific (private) minute threshold where they would "investigate" (look at the call log pattern, call the customer and ask, etc) if the calls were still "residential" in nature. But as long as the investigation showed that the calls were "residential", they would "eat the loss" (on that specific customer), and continue to offer them their agreed upon "unlimited residential" service. | |
SliderNC
Master Of Disaster
Premium
join:2002-12-12
Cornelius, NC
clubs:
·Windstream
| reply to markosjal
I think a lot of it depends on how you view unlimited residential calling and how they determine it. I'm sure their engineers run some queries to see when, where and how long you are calling. The point of the matter is, it is not that hard to use 2000 minutes these days of phone time, especially with teenagers, calling family and friends, and just general local use. I know last month on Sunrocket, I used close to 1500 minutes. My wife and I are both not home between the hours of 7:30am-6:30pm either. All of our calls happen from 7:00PM until 2:00AM most of the time, except for weekends when we call at various times.
Rizzo has the right idea with his first choice. Prove that he is not a residential customer, dispute the charges, leave Broadvoice and find another company to use. Broadvoice was probably losing money on him due to his family calling Brazil often and for long periods of time, whether during business hours or not.
The fact of the matter is, for those companies who advertise and sell an "Unlimited Residential Plan", and then in the ToS state that you are limited to "so many minutes" per month, it is false advertising and illegal. If it's a limited plan, come out and say it. I bet you no one would really care. If they said you get 2500 minutes for 19.99/month, I'm sure they'd still get people to sign up.
--
I'll believe that when my sh!t turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.
My LiveJournal | |
stevech1
join:2005-01-08
1 edit | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone call
2500 minutes in "consecutive months" - assuming that means TWO months, comes out to be 41 minutes per day.
My wife does that, on average per month, since we moved away from our home city and all friends/family are there.
So, I guess it's the service provider's right to define and set a limit. They did put in in writing. So you don't have a leg to stand on, I say. Other providers don't define the criteria in specifics.
I don't know about the false advertising. Seems like in the US companies can lie all they want in the marketing and hide behind their contractual fine print, and the courts let them do so. | |
anonymous Joe
@cisco.com
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
They do scam....
I know several people who used their service with 2500 3000+ minutes and got automatically upgraded to the Business Plan having to play ~300 dollars in retroactive charges...
Be very careful guys!!!!!!!!!
Really scamming people who really use their service a lot, therefore if you are not generating profit for them, you will get upgraded, just a matter of time...
Good luck with your small court claims!!!
Anonymous Joe - Boston | |
mykey2k
join:2001-11-19
Aurora, IL
| reply to markosjal
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
said by markosjal :If you dont like it, try using you local telephone service for the same calls and see what that costs you. Back in my dial-up days, I had unlimited dial-up. The players:
1) My ISP. They marketed it as unlimited.
2) My Telco. I paid 5 cents per call, no matter the duration... 1 second or 2 months.
3) Me. Who was always doing "something" online.
The results:
1) They never complained. I paid them my $25 a month.
2) They never complained. I did indeed have a phone call last 2 months.
3) I never complained. I paid my telco and my ISP.
The point is, whenever you buy something, you weigh the plusses and minusses. Some things I have noticed:
Why do I not lease a car? I put on over 20,000 miles a year on it. By buying, I can say I get unlimited mileage. When you lease a car, they tell you the "limit".
My cell phone has unlimited nights and weekends. Peak minutes are "limited" to 450. I know the limit.
"Free refills" at a restaurant means "more than one" compared to a restaurant that says "Limit 1 refill"
All-U-Can eat restaurants. They have no limit, in theory. I ate at a sushi buffet for 3 hours and no one complained.
In the end, a business needs to weigh the people who will take advantage of the system offered to them implemented; and those that barely use it. For every one of me in all these circumstances, there are those who are on the other side of the spectrum -- outliers in statistical terms.
We as consumers didn't come up with their pricing scheme: They did, and they have a legal obligation to stick by it.
-m | |
WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| To reprise (and condense) some comments I made in a similar thread many months ago:
The thing to consider is, first, what does a company say in their advertising? If, for example, they have a residential plan and they use the word UNLIMITED in their advertising, then if they are not really offering UNLIMITED service it is false advertising and consumer fraud, and they are lying to potential customers in their advertising. We can always hope that companies that do this will soon be on the receiving end of actions instituted by the Federal Trade Commission and/or the attorney generals of the various states.
The word unlimited has a very specific meaning. If it were an ambiguous word or phrase, like "a real bargain compared to other services", then the company's terms of service could clarify the offer. But when a word with a very specific and clear meaning is used in advertising, then the fine print cannot take away what the large print promises.
As another poster pointed out in an earlier thread, when there is an ambiguity in a legal contract (and in a court, the advertising often IS considered part of the contract, especially in consumer matters), the ambiguity is usually resolved in such a way as to favor the person who did not participate in the creation of the contract (the consumer).
No one disputes that companies have a right to verify that a customer really is using a residential service for residential purposes. But, a provision buried in the Terms of Service may not necessarily override what is boldly proclaimed in advertising. A long time ago in this country, companies used to promise the moon in advertising and then take it all back in the fine print, and that is why various truth-in-advertising and other consumer protection laws were passed. This does NOT give a customer the right to screw the company by signing up for a residential plan and then using it to run a home-based telemarketing operation, but when the calls really are residential in nature then if the company has advertised "unlimited" service and then tries to pull the sort of things that have been described here, my advice would to be to contact your state's Attorney General post haste.
For those that like to skim messages and jump to conclusions, please note that I said "contact your state's Attorney General", NOT "contact an attorney." Realistically, no one is suggesting that an individual file a lawsuit, it simply would not be worth the time and expense, and in most cases you wouldn't need to because you can get the credit card charges reversed. However, STATE attorney generals will often file lawsuits on behalf of all the consumers in a state and these are very often complaint-driven. In other words, if you and 50 or 100 other people contact your state's AG about the same company, he or she may actually go after that company. If it were me, I would personally send my complaint to the AG's office with a copy to the Federal Trade Commission (the FTC complaint can be filed through a web-based complaint form).
On the rare occasion that I have had to contact my state's AG office regarding a consumer dispute, it has always generated some action. Normally the first thing that happens is that a letter is sent to the business in question outlining the complaint, and the business has the opportunity to correct the problem (and respond to the AG's office explaining how they corrected the problem). If they do correct the problem and the customer is happy, it goes into the file associated with that business at the AG's office but otherwise nothing is shouted from the rooftops. As long as the person who brought the complaint is satisfied, that is pretty much the end of it. If there's a serious violation of law and the company admits to it I think there is sometimes a small fine levied, but nothing near what would be levied if the company refuses to acknowledge or correct the problem.
Some folks try to say that a company can't offer truly unlimited service and survive. Well if they can't, then they shouldn't be advertising it, but the point is that they are playing the averages, just like an all-you-can-eat restaurant. My comments from earlier this year expand on those thoughts.
And yes, I did selectively cut and paste a high percentage of the text in this message from several other messages I had previously written a while back. Why re-type when you want to say the same thing you said months ago, particularly at 2:20 in the morning?  | |
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