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mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
I am happy with free VoSPs to place P2P calls to talk as long as we wish @ no charge, except paying for Internet. When I saw post like this, I basically  and consider myself to be lucky not to get into such a problem with paid/commercial VoSP. | |
happyvalley
join:2005-03-21
| I just talked to BV Customer support about the "unlimited minute" policy. he said there is NO LIMIT as long as you don't use it for commerical purpose. they have some algorithm to detect your calling pattern. but he doesn't know how the pattern is defined.
FYI, we usually make a lot of calls at night 7-12pm, morning 9-11am. and not too much call afternoon. I guess they recognize this as a normal residential calling pattern, not a commerical pattern. we have been using around 3000min/month for several months, no trouble so far.
so, in all, BV confirmed that there is no limit as long as you calling behavior is recognized as normal residential calling pattern. | |
hilsonmota
join:2005-09-17
Sarasota, FL
| Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
>From: "BroadVoice Support"
>To: "Vandy" ,,,,
>Subject: RE: Dispute
>Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:28:02 -0400
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Received: from bv-master.broadvoice.com ([199.232.74.62]) by mc1-f16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:29:19 -0700
>X-Message-Info: UZmYcfFpTCed6EhYCpPEWqAXraq/CveOD5yVJ+QN6Xo=
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>X-MS-Has-Attach:
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>Thread-Topic: Dispute
>thread-index: AcW2V7FysctFEfL4RVKphrWNMM9IQQBTn1jP
>Return-Path: support@broadvoice.com
>X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2005 14:29:19.0617 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C9CEF10:01C5B7A6]
>
>Vandy,
>We have not changed our argument. Please read what we have written. It was
>you who did not understand correctly what we were telling you.
>This e-mail has a history where you can review the whole thread.
>
>Thank you,
>BroadVoice Customer Care
>
>pcd
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Vandy Rodrigues [mailto:vandyrodrigues@sbcglobal.net]
>Sent: Sat 9/10/2005 6:33 PM
>To: BroadVoice Support; dmauser@hotmail.com; hilson_mota@hotmail.com;
>yuridiogenes@hotmail.com; canevaris@hotmail.com
>Subject: RE: Dispute
>
>
>Support
>
>I see now that just changed your arguments once again saying "limited by
>type of usage and we require our residential plans to be used as
>residential plans". As all of you know friends we use the service to talk
>to our families and also friends of the friends.
>
>As all you can see the company is trying to make more money with their
>customer using different arguments many times. I will not bother you guys
>anymore but is necessary to let you know the quality of service is provided
>to us.
>
>Thanks all,
>
>Vandy
>
>
>BroadVoice Support wrote:
>
> Vandy,
> Don't mix our words. We are not saying that our service is limited
>in terms
> of minutes. Our service is, however, limited by type of usage and
>we
> require our residential plans to be used as residential plans.
>
> Please read what we wrote as well as the excerpt from our terms of
>service.
>
> Thank you,
> BroadVoice Customer Care
>
> pcd
>
> *********************************************
> CRITICAL INFORMATION!
>
> If you have not already done so, please logon to your portal now
>and
> acknowledge your reception and understanding of our information
>about E911.
> This is mandated by the FCC and failure to do so may result in an
> interruption of service or closure. Please keep in mind, this is a
>one time
> acknowledgement.
>
> BroadVoice engineers are working to develop an E911 solution which
>will
> comply with federal regulation. Further information and specifics
>will be
> available as the BroadVoice E911 feature is deployed.
>
> **************************************
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vandy Rodrigues [mailto:vandyrodrigues@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Sat 9/10/2005 6:20 PM
> To: BroadVoice Support; dmauser@hotmail.com;
>hilson_mota@hotmail.com;
> yuridiogenes@hotmail.com; canevaris@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: Dispute
>
>
> In another words, what he is saying is your service is not
>unlimited call.
> You have a limit and they measure you according to the limit so
>they can
> move you guys to a business plan.
>
> Let me help the company what unlimited means according to the
>dictionary.
>
> un·lim·it·ed (adj)
>
> 1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
> 2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited
> horizon.
> 3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited
> self-confidence.
>
> BroadVoice ! Support wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> Yes, please do not abuse your service or your account may be
> re-rated to a
> business plan.
>
> If you have any questions regarding the reason that this account
> was
> re-rated, please see the explanation below.
>
> Thank you,
> BroadVoice Customer Care
>
> pcd
>
> *********************************************
> CRITICAL INFORMATION!
>
> If you have not already done so, please logon to your portal now
> and
> acknowledge your reception and understanding of our information
> about E911.
> This is mandated by the FCC and failure to do so may result in an
> interruption of service or closure. Please keep in mind, this is a
> one time
> acknowledgement.
>
> BroadVoice engineers are working to develop an E911 solution which
> will
> comply with federal regulation. Further information and specifics
> will be
> available as the BroadVoice E911 feature! is deployed.
>
> **************************************
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vandy Rodrigues [mailto:vandyrodrigues@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Sat 9/10/2005 6:05 PM
> To: BroadVoice Support; dmauser@hotmail.com;
> hilson_mota@hotmail.com;
> yuridiogenes@hotmail.com; canevaris@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: Dispute
>
>
> Hello friends,
>
> As all of you have broadvoice account take a look on this e-mail.
> Check how
> the broadvoice treats their customers.
>
> Vandy
>
>
> Vandy wrote:
>
> You are still trying to find many ways to make more money with your
> customers without reason. Let me refresh your mind with the first
> e-mail
> that you sent me.
>
> " It came to our attention that you are using your residential
> BroadVoice service for
> business purposes, in violation of BroadVoice's published Terms of
> Service."
>
> I will not pay what is undue, by the way, I alre! ady asked to
> can! cel
> my broadvoice account I will not recommend broadvoice at all.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vandy
>
>
> BroadVoice Support wrote:
>
> Customer,
> We have clearly explained this to you.
>
> The message you received refered to a Terms of Service
> violation for use
> inconsistant with Single Residential service.
>
> Engineering has researched your usage and found you in
> violation of our
> terms of service. As such, we have switched your plan to
> unlimited
> Business. While you will still be able to make unlimited US
> and Canadian
> calling and low international rates, there is no provision
> for unlimited
> usage to international destinations.
>
> We are unable to provide the details of the checks that we
> do because we do
> not want to worry about subscribers coming up with
> loopholes.
>
> You may keep your plan as unlimited business or you may
> cancel your account
>
> As stated in our terms of service:
> "You agree that if BroadVoice determines in its sole
> discretion that you
> have used the Ser! vice, and/or anyone else has used the
> Service for any
> activities and purposes prohibited by this section it may
> immediately
> charge you BroadVoice's higher rates for its Business
> service for all
> periods, including past periods, in which you use, or used,
> the Service for
> such prohibited activities together with a US$100.00
> administrative fee for
> same, and that BroadVoice may immediately charge such
> amounts on your
> credit card."
>
> Thank you,
> BroadVoice Customer Care
>
> pcd
>
> *********************************************
> CRITICAL INFORMATION!
>
> If you have not already done so, please logon to your
> portal now and
> acknowledge your reception and understanding of our
> information about E911.
> This is mandated by the FCC and failure to do so may result
> in an
> interruption of service or closure. Pleas! e keep in mind,
> this is a one time
> acknowledgement.
>
> BroadVoice engineers are working to develop an E911
> solution which will
> compl! y with federal regulation. Further information and
> specifics will be
> available as the BroadVoice E911 feature is deployed.
>
> **************************************
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Vandy [mailto: customer]
> Sent: Sat 9/10/2005 2:58 PM
> To: BroadVoice Support
> Subject: Dispute
>
>
> I am informing you guys that I will send a dispute
> referencing the last
> charge on my credit card - U$ 251.79. Last set, 07 I
> received an e-mail
> saying that my broadvoice account was moved to a business
> plan because you
> think that I am using for this purpose.
>
> Last set, 08 I called broadvoice's support and explained to
> the agent the
> matter, however he was rude and said that I had either to
> accept to use a
> new business plan or cancel my account.
>
> After tha! t, I sent an e-mail to support@broadvoice.com
> trying to resolved
> the matter and I asked for explanation what motivated you
> guys to move myaccount from residencial to a business plan and
> charge me
> the amount of U$
> 213.31 more.
>
> So far I haven't received any clear explanation and the
> only reason that My
> contract is unlimited call to 35 countries, I believe that
> the word
> unlimited means, 24x7 no limit. I also explained on my last
> e-mail that I
> know the terms in the contract which I did not violate even
> one of them
> since all my calls were to talk to my family and friends,
> mosto of the
> calls are to Brasilia and Petrolina (cities where I have
> familiy).
>
> As I don't accept being moved to a business plan once I
> don't use for this
> purpose so the only option I had was cancel my broadvoice
> account. I asked
> to refund the amount of U$ 213.31 that was the aditional
> that you charged
> me u! nduly.I will ask to my credit ! card company to cancel
> the last charge
> from Broadvoice since its execessive.
>
> I have another friend that use broadvoice service
> experiencing a similar
> issue where you ! charged him saying that he called a cell
> phone in Brazil,
> however the phone number is a land line.
>
> These actions seems to me that Broadvoice company is
> experience some
> difficulties to honor the agreement made with the customers
> and is trying
> to find ways to make more money.
>
> I am respecful person and I honor all my agreements but I
> don't accept to
> pay any bill that is undue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> | |
GetSet
join:2005-09-19
Valley Stream, NY | reply to happyvalley
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
Go for it and give them hell for not making clear what unlimited means.
You can change to other provider and let everyone you know to do the same. | |
Mechano
join:2004-05-30
Antarctica | reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
What a rip off !!!
Why don't you show this to a lawyer...you can ask for some damages here, and this is a clear case of misrepresentation ...what a field day for a lawyer ! Yes man, go for it. | |
happyvalley
join:2005-03-21
| reply to GetSet
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice SCAM Unlimited phone c
I guess you should be able to get your money back, as they mentioned in the email. no limit, if you use as residential plans. it is pretty clear.
maybe you can go through the phone number you dialed with them to prove all your calls are to family and friends.
good luck.
----------------------------------------------------
>BroadVoice Support wrote:
Vandy,
Don't mix our words. We are not saying that our service is limited in terms of minutes. Our service is, however, limited by type of usage and we require our residential plans to be used as residential plans. Please read what we wrote as well as the excerpt from our terms of service.
Thank you,
BroadVoice Customer Care | |
mykey2k
join:2001-11-19
Aurora, IL
| For some history, you can read the woes of SLW from March 2005 (it's 16 pages long):
»[Packet8] P8 switching us to Business2000.unlimited overuse
and the DSLR news page: »VOIP minute caps
She was being switched to the business plan for using 9000 domestic minutes. Eventually it ended up in newspapers nationally and internationally (Canada at least) over the Associated Press wire.
Some ideas that came out of that were:
1. Contacting the Better Business Bureau.
2. Contacting your state's Attorney General
3. Contacting the AG in Massachusetts (where Broadvoice is HQ'ed)
The P8 TOS and Broadvoice's TOS are pretty much the same I imagine, and SLW "won" her fight... although it took a while.
I wish you good luck.
-m | |
damianstaro
join:2005-10-11
Roswell, GA
| reply to hilsonmota
Re: [BroadVoice] BroadVoice Fake "unlimited"
I had the same problem and I complained in the following websites:
www.ifccfbi.org
www.bbb.org
I suggest you guys do the same.
BroadVoice has to be careful. They are pissing off a lot of people. It wouldn't be a surprise if a handful of hackers started issuing a denial of serice attack against the web sites and voice services.
Also, I would expect them to be fined bigtime for their potentially ilegal "policies" | |
rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ
| reply to hilsonmota
No, you aren't being ripped off. Business plans are given high rate limits for a reason - because business does not stop at the end of the business day, and during the business day there is a high demand for usage.
As a residential customer, if you were using a regular landline phone in this manner, your provider would see it and do the same thing that Broadvoice is doing - switch you up to a higher rate plan because you are violating the TOS.
Residential customers are called residential customers because it is assumed that you will not use more than a certain amount of calls for any given calling period. Contrary to popular belief, every phone company has a limit on what its systems can handle without an outage. The bar is higher for some than for others, but there is always a limit.
Business customers are assumed to continuously use the phone at "peak" hours (typically workdays between 9-5) but also allocated system usage at other points during the week. Residential customers are assumed to use the phone sporadically during the 9-5 period and more often during the evenings and weekends.
Phone companies, landline and VoIP alike, set up their usage plans in advance with these criteria in mind. If they see that you're using more than they had anticipated, that means you're draining that portion of their system's resources and making it harder for other customers to use their service. In order to keep you as a customer, instead of simply disconnecting your service, they move you onto a Business plan so that you are not taking up resources they had previously allocated elsewhere.
These plans, as I mentioned before, are based on usage patterns, and also what kind of traffic particular servers can handle. Most providers (again, this cuts across the board, landline and VoIP) have two systems set up to handle the different calls from their customers - one for business customers which is built to handle commercial-grade phone traffic, and one for residential customers, which is solidly built but can only handle a limited amount of traffic. Essentially, when they move you over to a Business plan, they are switching the path your voice traffic takes over to a system designed to handle the pressure you're putting on the system.
They aren't trying to gyp you. They're trying to help you. | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| said by rileyjam514  :No, you aren't being ripped off. Business plans are given high rate limits for a reason - because business does not stop at the end of the business day, and during the business day there is a high demand for usage. That may be the THEORY that a company bases their rates upon. BUT that theory doesn't match every true "residential user". For example, some families have "chatty teenagers".
And if enough true "residential users" don't fit that theory, the company needs to be upfront in changing their rates to something that matches reality. But its not OK to SLAM "residential" users into "business rates", simply because the user believed the advertising that they were buying UNLIMITED residential calling for one monthly fee!!!
said by rileyjam514 :As a residential customer, if you were using a regular landline phone in this manner, your provider would see it and do the same thing that Broadvoice is doing - switch you up to a higher rate plan because you are violating the TOS. What TOS violation?!?
If you are using the phone for a home business, yes you are violating the TOS of a "residential" account. But if/when you just have a "chatty family", you are NOT violating the TOS of an "unlimited" residential account. Instead, you are just a heavy user of the service.
Now I know that any company you do that with, will likely SEE (in their call logs) that you are a "heavy user". And they might even start an "investigation" to see if you are really using your account (fraudulently) to run a business on. But as long as their investigation shows that you are NOT violating their TOS (i.e. your calls are RESIDENTIAL in nature), a reputable business will "suck it up" and eat the costs of you as a "heavy customer"!
In fact, to do anything else is likely "false advertising"...
said by rileyjam514 :Residential customers are called residential customers because it is assumed that you will not use more than a certain amount of calls for any given calling period. It doesn't matter how "chatty" a telco ASSUMES that a "residential customer" will be! If they are using the line for actual "residential use" (i.e. talking to friends, family, etc), they are using the line for "residential use".
And if that means a "residential user" uses enough minutes on their "unlimited phone line" to cause the telco to lose money (on that specific user), than that is just "tuff s@#t". If too many of their customers are "chatty", the business always has the option to raise their rates, or stop advertising "unlimited" (and instead put a specific monthly limit on their service).
BUT, it is NOT OK for a business to advertise "unlimited" service, and then refuse to deliver on that promise!
NOTE: I agree that it is fraudulent of a customer to sign up for a "residential" account, and use it for "business purposes" (such as running a home based business). But it is perfectly proper for a "residential user" to sign up with an "unlimited residential account" and then talk for several hours with family every day! If that means that the telco (or in this case a VoIP company) providing the service loses money on that customer, than that company needs to change their marketing plan (or change their rates). But until/unless they do, that company needs to deliver what the customer bought (i.e. "unlimited residential service").
NOTE: I'm not a lawyer. However, it is my understanding that SLAMMING genuine (albeit "chatty") residential users to expensive "business rates" can be considered FRAUD. And I have heard of state AGs suing companies for "false advertising", when they fail to deliver what they advertised to the customer...
said by rileyjam514 :They aren't trying to gyp you. They're trying to help you. No! They are NOT trying to help the customer!
It sounds to me like they are trying to help their "bottom line", by using practices that are dubious at best, and outright illegal (false advertising) at worst!
I'm just glad I never signed up with this particular VoIP company.... | |
anonymous Joe
@cisco.com
| reply to hilsonmota
They do scam....
I know several people who used their service with 2500 3000+ minutes and got automatically upgraded to the Business Plan having to play ~300 dollars in retroactive charges...
Be very careful guys!!!!!!!!!
Really scamming people who really use their service a lot, therefore if you are not generating profit for them, you will get upgraded, just a matter of time...
Good luck with your small court claims!!!
Anonymous Joe - Boston | |
NENO
join:2005-12-02
Miami, FL
| reply to Mechano
I know what you mean. BROADVOICE is indeed the sneakiest company I have ever delt with. They bravely advertise UNLMITED CALLS TO 35 COUNTRIES and it is so untrue. If you exceed their hidden threshold of $25.00 worth in calls they will arbitrarily charge your credit card an exorbitant amount and send you a letter after, which totally contradicts their advertising. They charged me $162.00 for a single month bill and they did the same to several of my friends. Some were charged in excess of $300.00. I understand that I, and many of my friends, did make an excessive amount of inteernational calls, but if you cant deliver what you promise then dont offer it at all. SIMPLY A RIP OFF and a SCANDALOUS CASE OF MISREPRESENTATION!!!!! | |
NENO
join:2005-12-02
Miami, FL
| reply to hilsonmota
BROADVOICE is indeed the sneakiest company I have ever dealt with. They bravely advertise UNLMITED CALLS TO 35 COUNTRIES and it is so untrue. If you exceed their hidden threshold of $25.00 worth in calls they will arbitrarily charge your credit card an exorbitant amount and send you a letter after, which totally contradicts their advertising. I called them in disbelief and they keep telling me I am using the phone for business, which is not true and they know it. What kind of business only calls before 08:30am and after 07:00pm? What kind of business only calls the same 10 or 12 international numbers over and over again? It is obvious that I am calling the same family and friends out of the country when I and my wife are not at work (off business hours). Well, they charged my credit card $162.00 for a single month bill and they did the same to several of my friends. Some were charged in excess of $300.00. I understand that I, and many of my friends, did make many and long international calls, but if you cant deliver what you promise then dont offer it at all. SIMPLY A RIP OFF and a SCANDALOUS CASE OF MISREPRESENTATION!!!!! | |
cyberbird
join:2004-03-25
Schaumburg, IL
| reply to hilsonmota
i m a happy user of vonage for last few years,i dont remember vonage had any outage at least for me and no billing errors/problems. i m currently on 14$/500min plan and was thinking to port my number to broadvoice for there 20$ plan. now after going through yours posts i m not sure if i m going to do that but wondering what if one just makes about 2000 minute family calls to US and Canada only, do they still consider it as biz use?
why they got these awards and why no one catch them for misleading people? | |
iSEPIC
join:2001-04-17
Las Vegas, NV | reply to rileyjam514
BS - If there is a limit, then don't advertise "unlimited", nuff said. | |
|
