Qwest High Speed Subscriber Service Agreement

Author	All Replies
adsldude always learning Premium,Ex-Mod 2003-9 join:2000-11-10 Colorado	Qwest High Speed Subscriber Service Agreement It's amazing what you'll find if you Google around a bit. Search terms "qwest legal" and a couple clicks later I find this: »www.qwest.com/legal/highspeedint···reement/ an then this pdf: »www.qwest.com/legal/highspeedint···5_-5.pdf Well what do you know. A whole bunch of rules for us DSL subscribers, some of them new to me. You gotta use an approved modem? You can't run any servers? You could pay to $5 per spam? No sharing service outside your home? Someone misuses your wireless, your responsible? Wow, how the service is changing! -- My other passion is mountain biking. Info on the Colorado based Front Range Mountain Bike Patrol - FRMBP can be found at:»www.frmbp.org
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-21 22:16:11 ·
RayW Premium join:2001-09-01 Layton, UT clubs: ·XMission	You gotta use an approved modem? - Nope, but they do not promise it will work or not fry your house and data, you are on your own as far as service. You can't run any servers? - sounds like it, but can you run a private server that is not for public information? And does it matter if you have a real ISP and not qwest as an ISP? You could pay to $5 per spam? - Ought to be more, but what happens if you get hacked? Even the pros have been buggered by the bad guys. No sharing service outside your home? - Ummm....they do say one residence. But if you are with a real ISP, then does it matter? Or is it the line? I get the impression it is only if you use qwest as the ISP. Someone misuses your wireless, your responsible? - makes sense to me, but at least they could HELP prosecute the abuser. Also, they can change the rules on you and you have no recourse, but you have to follow the rules or else lose your first born. Over half the PDF seems to be saying "we own you". -- I am not lost, I find myself every time.
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-21 23:12:32 ·
adsldude always learning Premium,Ex-Mod 2003-9 join:2000-11-10 Colorado	Seems like they are attempting to tighten the acceptable uses: Here are some quotes: "If you do not purchase or rent a modem from Qwest you must provide a modem from the list at:" »www.qwest.com/internethelp/modems/index.html - BTW, that means you can't even use a Cisco 678 since it's not listed. "Service may only be used in the U.S. and you may not use Service to host any type of server, personal or commercial." - What exactly is a server??? Is it anything that accepts an inbound connection and responds? Look out, that covers a lot of applications and devices! "If actual damages cannot be calculated reasonably, you agree to pay Qwest liquidated damages of five U.S. dollars ($5.00) for each piece of spam transmitted from or otherwise connected to your account." - I hope your XMas email is welcomed by all or they may report you as a spammer. Also, make sure your email server doesn't have an open relay that some spammer uses to bounce email. Wait, I forgot, no servers so that shouldn't happen! "You may connect multiple computers/devices within a single home or office location to your modem and/or router to access the Service, but the Service may only be used at the single home or office location for which the Service was provisioned by Qwest" - Pretty clear that wireless broadcast to your neighbor is a no-no! "You are responsible for all use of your Service regardless of the source of the transmission, whether by you, or an authorized or unauthorized third party, over your Service." - Don't let anybody crack your wireless encryption and go on a porn fest! This applies to all Qwest DSL users regardless of which ISP you use. Only a limited number of rules in Sections 2(b) ii-v apply specifically to qwest.net type users. -- My other passion is mountain biking. Info on the Colorado based Front Range Mountain Bike Patrol - FRMBP can be found at:»www.frmbp.org
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 00:03:31 ·
msj Premium join:2004-05-21 Fort Collins, CO ·Qwest.net	said by adsldude : Seems like they are attempting to tighten the acceptable uses: Here are some quotes: "If you do not purchase or rent a modem from Qwest you must provide a modem from the list at:" »www.qwest.com/internethelp/modems/index.html - BTW, that means you can't even use a Cisco 678 since it's not listed. Of course, this is fairly unenforceable, since it would be difficult to determine remotely what modem is being used. When I go to that site the Cisco 678 is still listed. I would also note that you don't quote the rest of the paragraph which makes things a little less clear. I can easily see an interpretation which says that if you don't use a modem from the approved list it just means that you are on your own, and you may be liable for any damage to Qwest equipment caused by your use of non approved equipment. said by adsldude : "Service may only be used in the U.S. and you may not use Service to host any type of server, personal or commercial." - What exactly is a server??? Is it anything that accepts an inbound connection and responds? Look out, that covers a lot of applications and devices! This one concerns me. A lot of ISP's have this clause, but they don't sell static IP addresses. What does Qwest think that people want static IP's for? Why offer them for sale if they don't want you to actually take advantage of them? I can certainly see them not allowing a commercial website, or a service that has high usage (of course, defining when the line is crossed may be difficult). But personal websites, personal email servers, inbound connection services (VPN, ssh, etc), small personal game servers, etc. should be allowed. If they start enforcing this I will either find another ISP or drop DSL completely and switch to a wireless ISP.
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 01:50:36 ·
colorbars join:2003-03-20 USA	reply to adsldude I couldn't find the text for servers that was quoted, but add me to those who will tell Qwest to stick it where the sun don't shine if they come after me about it. Hint people, everything from web browsers to instant messaging clients to P2P programs are servers. A server is anything that accepts an inbound connection. P.S. I run a personal mail server on my line and I'm NOT giving that up. I'll take the responsibility for making sure it can't spam, thank you. (And no, it's impossible.) The one thing that got me about the new agreement is that you specifically give up all rights you have under state law and agree to arbitration. I'm not a lawyer, but there's been a LOT of controversy over whether that's even legal. I doubt anything will be an issue, but you can be assured that if push comes to shove and they ever try anything, I WILL be making a stink. Qwest needs the goodwill of the state overseers. They can't screw things up too badly.
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 02:16:46 ·
christcorp Premium join:2001-05-21 Cheyenne, WY ·VOIPo ·Bresnan Online	Unfortunately, DSL and the internet don't always fall under the same rules as telephone. Also, many lawmakers see dsl and the internet as a service and commodity. (WHICH IT SHOULD BE). If a company want to put limits on the services they provide, they have every right to. We also have every right not to use them for that service. We don't need regulators involved. That's already half the problem, the government. I had a few servers running for quite a while locally. One reason I went to Qwest DSL was because the cable company wouldn't allow servers. The wireless ISP's in our area also don't allow servers, and now it looks like Qwest is stopping it. With a trend like this, the only problem really is that you may find it difficult to find someone who will allow servers on their system. A year ago, I stopped my web, email, and ftp servers from being on Qwest and moved them to a commerical hosting company. //mister.net . Not that I'm promoting them, I get nothing out of it, but I get my DOMAIN NAME registered through them, Static IP, 500mb of storage space (You can get as much as you want), unlimitted email server accounts with your domain or any sub domains, and 5gb transfer rate (You can get more). I get this all for $35 a YEAR. YES A YEAR. I am bringing this up because that is less than $3 a month. My STATIC IP with Qwest cost more than that!!! Plus I saved $3 a month going from Qwest with MSN to Qwest.net, so for the same price I also got good email, web, and ftp servers running on OC48 and OC96 fiber circuits. There are definately times when people would like local servers like game servers and such. I hope this can still be possible. Even if Qwest keeps it available on their business type dsl accounts that would be something. The point is I don't like Qwest for doing this, but everyone else is doing too. Doesn't make it right, but it is their business. They have the right to limit it anyway they feel. And at least up in my part of the world, giving up qwest out of principle wouldn't help me because there is NO OTHER PROVIDER locally that would allow servers. One final thought!!!! How DOES this really apply to Qwest.NET customers as opposed to Qwest with MSN. The reason I ask is because as a Qwest.net customer, they offer me space and ASSISTANCE on running a web site. Static IP addresses, etc... Just wondering if the terms of agreement is different for the Qwest/MSN.COM customers and the Qwest.net customers. Later.... Mike....
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 10:06:36 ·
AthlGrond Collectivism Breeds Envy Premium,MVM join:2002-04-25 Aurora, CO ·Comcast	reply to msj said by msj : said by adsldude : Seems like they are attempting to tighten the acceptable uses: Here are some quotes: "If you do not purchase or rent a modem from Qwest you must provide a modem from the list at:" »www.qwest.com/internethelp/modems/index.html - BTW, that means you can't even use a Cisco 678 since it's not listed. Of course, this is fairly unenforceable, since it would be difficult to determine remotely what modem is being used. When I go to that site the Cisco 678 is still listed. I would also note that you don't quote the rest of the paragraph which makes things a little less clear. I can easily see an interpretation which says that if you don't use a modem from the approved list it just means that you are on your own, and you may be liable for any damage to Qwest equipment caused by your use of non approved equipment. That was my interpretation as well: They don't want to provide tech support for non-standard equipment. -- You are now free to paint your hair wild colors and run around naked. -dg2
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 10:19:32 ·
AthlGrond Collectivism Breeds Envy Premium,MVM join:2002-04-25 Aurora, CO ·Comcast	reply to msj said by msj : said by adsldude : "Service may only be used in the U.S. and you may not use Service to host any type of server, personal or commercial." - What exactly is a server??? Is it anything that accepts an inbound connection and responds? Look out, that covers a lot of applications and devices! This one concerns me. A lot of ISP's have this clause, but they don't sell static IP addresses. What does Qwest think that people want static IP's for? Why offer them for sale if they don't want you to actually take advantage of them? I can certainly see them not allowing a commercial website, or a service that has high usage (of course, defining when the line is crossed may be difficult). But personal websites, personal email servers, inbound connection services (VPN, ssh, etc), small personal game servers, etc. should be allowed. If they start enforcing this I will either find another ISP or drop DSL completely and switch to a wireless ISP. My interpretation of the intent is that they want to be able to point to this agreement and shut down people that are using large amounts of bandwidth. (Of course I'm interpreting based on how things work with my Comcast connection, people can run servers, they just have to avoid being a nuisance.) -- You are now free to paint your hair wild colors and run around naked. -dg2
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 10:24:44 ·
AthlGrond Collectivism Breeds Envy Premium,MVM join:2002-04-25 Aurora, CO ·Comcast	reply to christcorp said by christcorp : One final thought!!!! How DOES this really apply to Qwest.NET customers as opposed to Qwest with MSN. The reason I ask is because as a Qwest.net customer, they offer me space and ASSISTANCE on running a web site. Static IP addresses, etc... Just wondering if the terms of agreement is different for the Qwest/MSN.COM customers and the Qwest.net customers. Later.... Mike.... It looks to me like it applies to everyone regardless of who your ISP is. -- You are now free to paint your hair wild colors and run around naked. -dg2
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 10:28:58 ·
AthlGrond Collectivism Breeds Envy Premium,MVM join:2002-04-25 Aurora, CO ·Comcast	reply to colorbars said by colorbars : I couldn't find the text for servers that was quoted It's in 7 a iii, which, as you probably guessed, is quite wordy. -- You are now free to paint your hair wild colors and run around naked. -dg2
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 11:18:06 ·
WannaBB join:2005-07-21 Olympia, WA	reply to adsldude A few months back, the FCC made a move to reclassify ADSL as an "Information Service" rather than a "Communication Service". This puts DSL in the same category as the Cable Intenet. So after a transition period of one year, DSL will be less regulated. This means that the telcos won't need to share their lines for DSL with CLECs like Earthlink and they won't have to pay the USF fees on DSL revenue. It also seems that the telcos are free to attach whatever terms and conditions they wish on their service agreements. Some of the information on the Qwest web pages talks about the company electing to transition to a commercial service agreement starting 01/28/06. Interestingly, this date corresponds to the current end date for the promo pricing. It does appear to me that Qwest has done their new agreement on the cheap, trying to do a one-size-fits-all agreement for both residential and business. Obviously, many business accounts are used to host web servers. And many MSN accounts are used to host personal web servers and test application servers (since many of us are IT pros that work from home part of the time). But as someone else mentioned, it may be the Qwest is merely reserving the option of enforcing the letter of the agreement against the bad apples. The spirit of the agreement may be to conform to the profile of the typical american family - web surfing for a 2-4 hours per day, a few hundred MB of download per week, etc. But if you are hosting your own SMTP server to send out SPAM, or hosting a web server offering up the Paris Hilton Video for free download, you could and should get termed by Qwest. We won't know for certain whether Qwest is serious about enforcing the new agreement until next November, when the old agreement for current subscribers expires. If they then start blocking ports, we will know they intend to do so. But if they don't, then it is probably just something to get rid of service abusers. Lastly, it is interesting that Qwest states that certain clauses within section 2 don't apply to third party ISP's, but they didn't also exempt section 7. But if you have a third party ISP, I can't see how they can enforce section 7 (port blocking is something done to TCP/IP traffic, not ATM cells). My 2 cents. John
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 12:35:24 ·
dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN	reply to adsldude Note that this doesn't go into effect until 11/26/06, so don't panic just yet. If you want a server that maintains high traffic, you're better off having it hosted, anyways. I suspect this is mostly "CYA" legaleze, designed so they have the ability to crack down on someone constantly hogging bandwidth because they're running a high volume server or sharing their connection with neighbors. I don't expect that this will have any impact on all but very small minority. Also gives them the ability to recover damages if they get sued because a customer is spamming. I did find this amusing though, since obscene, defamatory, abusive, hateful, and exessively violent content pretty much describes 75% of the Internet "Users shall not use the Qwest Network and Services to transmit, distribute or store material that is inappropriate, as reasonably determined by Qwest, or material that is obscene (including child pornography), defamatory, libelous, threatening, abusive, hateful, or excessively violent."
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 12:42:38 ·
AthlGrond Collectivism Breeds Envy Premium,MVM join:2002-04-25 Aurora, CO ·Comcast	reply to WannaBB said by WannaBB : Lastly, it is interesting that Qwest states that certain clauses within section 2 don't apply to third party ISP's, but they didn't also exempt section 7. But if you have a third party ISP, I can't see how they can enforce section 7 (port blocking is something done to TCP/IP traffic, not ATM cells). My 2 cents. John I agree that they will probably not be blocking ports. Going back to how this sort of thing works with Comcast, they have a default set of ports they block 67, 68, 135-139, 445, 520, and 1080 (they will add port 25 if you start spamming, as they start with the assumption that your computer has been hacked). You will notice that blocking the above ports does not prevent you from hosting a server, how they do that is that if they notice "abuse" from a particular account they will send the account holder a letter threatening them with termination if they don't shape up, and if they don't shape up they terminate the account. I don't know what Qwest plans but I would assume that they would do something similar. -- You are now free to paint your hair wild colors and run around naked. -dg2
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 12:56:23 ·
rogunit Uhhh, Sir? Premium join:1999-09-18 Phoenix, AZ	reply to adsldude Got this in email today. Guess they decided they should notify us. Doesn't kick in fer me till next Nov... December 22, 2005 Changes to your Qwest® High-Speed Internet Service Agreement Dear Customer, Your business is important to us. Accordingly, we make every effort to provide you the latest information regarding your Qwest service(s). The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) recently issued an order that affects high-speed Internet service providers, such as Qwest High-Speed Internet (or Qwest DSL®). Companies providing high-speed Internet access now have the option of providing terms and conditions that govern the service under a subscriber agreement with its customers in lieu of a tariff. Qwest will provide high-speed Internet services to all new subscribers under a subscriber agreement beginning January 28, 2006. As an existing customer, if you do not make changes to your current Qwest High-Speed Internet service, the change will not affect you. Your service will continue under the same terms and conditions to which you originally subscribed until November 16, 2006. On November 16, 2006 (or at an earlier date that you make any changes to your service) -- Qwest will transfer the governance of your service to the new subscriber agreement. Qwest will assume you have accepted these terms unless you contact Qwest within 30 days of your transfer date. We appreciate that you have chosen Qwest. For more information, please visit us on the Web at »www.qwest.com/legal for more information on Qwest High-Speed Internet service terms and conditions. Sincerely, Scott Russell Product Director Qwest Communications 1801 California Street Denver, Colorado 80202
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 16:10:56 ·
rogunit Uhhh, Sir? Premium join:1999-09-18 Phoenix, AZ	The smiley was not added by me... lol
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-22 16:11:58 ·
holocron Premium join:2004-06-28 Minneapolis, MN	reply to adsldude Re: Qwest High Speed Subscriber Service Agreement I haven't read it in full...but I'm wondering--based on what some have quote--is this actaully prohibits VoIP?
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-23 10:48:02 ·
dynodb Premium,VIP join:2004-04-21 Minneapolis, MN	said by holocron : I haven't read it in full...but I'm wondering--based on what some have quote--is this actaully prohibits VoIP? No. VoIP should still be OK.
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-23 12:27:21 ·
questionable join:2005-10-18 Phoenix, AZ	reply to adsldude Sweet that might be something I need to check out.
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-23 13:10:37 ·
woodward XMission Broadband VIP join:2000-12-28 Salt Lake City, UT	reply to adsldude There are lots of good ISPs out that that are more than happy to let you run any server you need on your DSL connection. Yes, including XMission (shameless, I know).
	to forum · permalink · · 2005-12-23 13:47:20 ·


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