how-to block ads
|
astirusty
Premium
join:2000-12-23
Henderson, NV
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... How most managers and HR people read the quote.
quote:
... there's essentially no difference between IS workers with high school diplomas and bachelor's degrees, according to the SANS Institute's ..."
And people wonder why we have information security problems.  | |
|  
Ray
Mahnahmahna
Premium
join:2001-04-02
Mesa, AZ | Re: No pay differences for IS workers... Higher education is a rip-off.
--
ON DELETE CASCADE | |
| | redhatnation
Premium
join:2005-06-02
Woodbridge, VA
 ·Comcast
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... said by Ray  :Higher education is a rip-off. Not sure if you are trolling, but I have to ask...
Why do you feel that way? Do you have a college degree? | |
| | |
Ray
Mahnahmahna
Premium
join:2001-04-02
Mesa, AZ
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... I don't. And I'm very good at what I do. I see people graduating from college with huge debts that are virtually indistinguishable from high school grads. You can lead people to knowledge, but you can't make them think. 
--
ON DELETE CASCADE | |
| | | | 
MrBradTX
join:2001-05-23
Carrollton, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus.
Colleges aren't supposed to merely install fresh knowledge into immature post-adolescent skulls. Colleges are also supposed to transform immature post-adolescents into mature, responsible young adults and equip them to continue to grow, mature and learn the rest of their lives. | |
| | | | | 
CatSnak
RIP Splashy - We miss you
Premium
join:2001-05-06
Lakeside, CA
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... said by MrBradTX :If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus. Colleges aren't supposed to merely install fresh knowledge into immature post-adolescent skulls. Colleges are also supposed to transform immature post-adolescents into mature, responsible young adults and equip them to continue to grow, mature and learn the rest of their lives. Then a lot of the colleges are failing because I see lots of grads comming out of them that act worse then some high school grads.
--
Founding member, 2002-2003, 2005-2006 Director of Communications, 2004-2005 Secretary for the Crunchenstein Project | |
| | | | | 
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| said by MrBradTX :If baccalaureate grads are indistinguishable from HS grads, then either the colleges aren't doing their jobs, or those doing the observing have a too-narrow focus. My money is on the latter. I don't have the URL for the following excerpt but a college degree has never been indicative of anything except the ability to pay tuition.
WASHINGTON (AP) - Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food.
Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.
More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.
That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.
Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.
--
You work hard to put food on your family...shouldn't the pResident speak the words you want to hear? »www.wimp.com/presidential | |
| | | | | | jp10558
Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... Yeah, but if you read my above post - two salient parts of the article that everyone else is forgetting to quote - it seems like that sorry level is the *best* you can expect to get. That is, most non college graduates are *worse* at understanding credit card offers.
And of course, credit card offers are designed by lawyers, mostly in legalese. If you're not a law grad, then I don't expect you to understand it better than anyone else.
There's another missing point here - that is the design of the educational system in the US - the stated goals.
HS is supposed to do all the basic life stuff - how to balance a checkbook, how to manage a household, basic math and the like. You're not supposed to need college to manage day to day tasks.
Most colleges (traditional, not vocational) are designed to teach research, critical thinking, and some deeper enquiry into a specific field (the major). Now, no where in there is anything about credit card offers or comparing food costs.
Now, you can argue the success of either at achieving their stated goals (esp critical thinking), but as college is directed towards research and such, I think the results of the study are predictable.
If colleges don't pretend to work on money management and the like, then I'd expect equal skills from HS and College Grads. But look where the differences are - higher literacy and better ability to do research - exactly what undergrad college focuses on. Shock of shocks!
--
Opera 8.51(Build 7712); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 3400+; 1GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 1/7/06(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3 | |
| | | | | | |
major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... said by jp10558 :HS is supposed to do all the basic life stuff - how to balance a checkbook, how to manage a household, basic math and the like. You're not supposed to need college to manage day to day tasks. What makes you say the above is what HS "should" be taking care of. Did your HS teach you critical thinking skills? Teach how to balance a checkbook or any of what you said above? Maybe HS has changed since I graduated in the 80s but mine did not teach any of the above. Those are sink or swim life skills that you either learn by yourself or your parents teach you. There was never a formal curriculum but that shouldn't stop anyone who is smart enough to get into college from learning on his own. That there are people out there as clueless as they are not only speaks volumes about the sorry state of education in this country but about the sorry state of everything.
Don't wait for public education to get better b/c it won't. It's not in the moneyed ruling elite's interest for the little people in this country to possess the ability to think for themselves. With the exception of a very few, we are a nation of consumers with a service based economy. We don't manufacture anything and all the best minds are leaving to work in R&D in other nations less theocratic than this one is becoming.
And with the rapid extinction of the middle class becoming more and more apparent, there will be two tiers in society.
The uber wealthy haves at the top, and scores of non insured, struggling, filthy, expendable masses at the bottom to serve them. Essentially, we're all witnessing feudalism redux. Unless more people extract themselves from watching chumping for trump and wise up to current events, this country is on the fast track to 3rd world status.
--
You work hard to put food on your family...shouldn't the pResident speak the words you want to hear? »www.wimp.com/presidential | |
| | | | | | | | 
ZsExperiment
Zse
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Chicago Area
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... said by major marco :Don't wait for public education to get better b/c it won't. It's not in the moneyed ruling elite's interest for the little people in this country to possess the ability to think for themselves. With the exception of a very few, we are a nation of consumers with a service based economy. We don't manufacture anything and all the best minds are leaving to work in R&D in other nations less theocratic than this one is becoming. And with the rapid extinction of the middle class becoming more and more apparent, there will be two tiers in society. The uber wealthy haves at the top, and scores of non insured, struggling, filthy, expendable masses at the bottom to serve them. Essentially, we're all witnessing feudalism redux. Unless more people extract themselves from watching chumping for trump and wise up to current events, this country is on the fast track to 3rd world status. I am right there with you on this.
That's why we have taken it upon ourselves, as parents, to make sure that we are supplying the additional education and development of skills that our kids will need to escape the imminent 3rd world fate you mention.
Our kids attend public school, but we no longer believe that what many public schools provide these days is even close to what students need to develop into self-supporting, contributing citizens.
This has forced us into 'every man for himself' mode, which we feel badly about, but we simply can't save everyone.
My advice... Parents' blind faith in America's public school system is foolish and dangerous for their children's future. You must supplement on your own.
You would not believe how many people we run into that believe that their neighborhood public schools are the exception rather than the dismal rule.
Many otherwise intelligent people are in dangerous, community pride denial. 
--
Hmmmm... That worked last time... | |
| | | | | | | | jp10558
Premium
join:2005-06-24
Willseyville, NY
| said by major marco :said by jp10558 :HS is supposed to do all the basic life stuff - how to balance a checkbook, how to manage a household, basic math and the like. You're not supposed to need college to manage day to day tasks. What makes you say the above is what HS "should" be taking care of. Did your HS teach you critical thinking skills? Teach how to balance a checkbook or any of what you said above? Maybe HS has changed since I graduated in the 80s but mine did not teach any of the above. Interestingly enough, in my HS, everyone had to take 2 semesters of Home Economics. Now while many people blew them off as such cute names as "Homo's and Queers" and the like, if you paid any attention, it taught skills (with "lab") as how to cook and follow recipies, how to wash, dry and iron clothing, how to sew, and yes, how to balance a checkbook. The only thing missing was the credit card class. I thought this was standard at least in NY, but who knows.
There was also some focus on budgeting for the home and childcare.
--
Opera 8.51(Build 7712); Windows XP Pro SP2;Athlon 64 3400+; 1GB PC3200 DDR; 1M/128k DSL; NOD32(Version 2.5.25); Outpost Pro 3;Proxomitron 4.5j Grypen 1/7/06(Opera mod),GPG ID:0x0A1C6EE3 | |
| | | | 
nil
Java Geek
join:2000-11-27 | Education is what you make of it.. not useful for everyone. | |
| | 
Psicop
More human than human
Premium
join:2005-12-21
| You tell me that.
I have two College degrees and I agree with you:
1. University is a business
2. University does not make better thinkers
3. University puts you in debt
Question:
What is University good for?
| |
| | | 
luminaire
Premium
join:2005-03-22
Oakville, ON
clubs:
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... There aren't may tried and tested Security diplomas/degree's available right now. I've seen several, and although they claim to be comprehensive just from reading their outlines it is plain to see they are lacking in many areas. Experience, study and practice will make you must more valuable in the security field. That being said, at least for the telecommunications industry, there are some good diploma programs that are comprehensive, detailed, and incredibly worth while. | |
| | | | | | |
ZsExperiment
Zse
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Chicago Area
| Re: No pay differences for IS workers... said by ColdinCbus :said by Psicop :Question: What is University good for? Football.  Ummm... ...BASKETBALL! 
WooHoo! ...March Madness is just around the corner!
--
Hmmmm... That worked last time... | |
| 
Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Ann Arbor, MI
·WOW Internet and C..
| said by astirusty :And people wonder why we have information security problems. So a degree means that you're better informed? I send out an e-mail regarding the Sony DRM as a possible issue and an e-mail came back from three manager levels above me that "it sounds like an urban legend". This was not the first day, but at least a week later.
No, I don't have a degree. No, I have no college class time. What I do have is a desire to learn about things in the computer industry. I also have U.S. Military electronic training, a correspondence course in computer repair, self study, and a bunch (of which I consider to be almost worthless) certifications.
I think what it all boils down to is desire. I've worked with people who do this job for the pay check, not because they love their work. They go home and don't touch a computer. I come home and that's the first thing I turn on.
The main thing that college shows an employer is that you are capable of learning. But, college is theory and work is the practical. Just like a Microsoft certification, all questions should start out "In a perfect Microsoft world," because very few times will you find a Microsoft only configuration. In the real world you better know how to figure it out and make it work with the other guys.
--
"Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something." -- Robert Heinlein, Time Enough For Love | |
| | | |
|
