rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Copps wants bigger USF; I say kill it
said by TKJunkMail  :» www.telecommagazine.com/newsglob···=AR_1706Like speakers from day one of the NTCA annual meeting, Copps called for focused reform of the Universal Service Fund, the system which helps rural telcos provides core communications services to their typically far flung constituents.
“A broader base is needed to make the USF more viable,” said Copps in reference to the need for all providers to contributed to the fund based on revenues. “I predict 2006 will be the year when action will be taken on the contribution methodology. We will see reform that will put us on firming footing.” Translation: he wants to make the VOIP providers pay into the USF too. I have a better solution. Kill the USF. The money collected does nothing for rural users anyway. Get rid of the USF and more money will be in the hands of all users of telecomm services. The USF funds eRate which provides broadband/telecommunicaions services to schools, especially poorer, rural schools. |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Actually, as shocking as it sounds, I agree with Retire_rich on this one. The USF is one of the most corrupt and useless funds ever developed. I have first had experience with it, as the school system 3 towns over spent well over 5M+ on some massively overpriced cisco gear to 'wire up' their schools. However they don't have any money to pay for the technical skills required to install it, they don't have any money to pay for the circuits, they don't have any money for the support infrastructure (wiring/etc). Instead they have millions of dollars in Cisco 6xxx series core switches, fully loaded with 48 port and fiber blades, sitting in boxes in storage, depreciating in value at the rate of 25% per year. In 5 years, (it's been 2 years now), it'll be next to worthless.
The ONLY person who made money of this was the sleazy 'government approved' vendor that sold the equipment. The vendor absolutely knew that the equipment was useless for the school and their current budge situation, but the terms of the USF funding stated the school HAD to spend the money on 'approved items'.
It's fraud, it's a waste of money, and it's of no benefit to anyone. If the USF is going to be used for anything, if it can't be killed, it should be used to wire up the infrastructure with fiber everywhere. Don't necessarily have to light the fiber, but get the infrastructure built, and the town can light it when the telcos/cableco's get too greedy (as is happening now).
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Sure the internet has lots of porn and piracy, but I'm sure there's a downside to it. |
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rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ
| Wow.
There is a subject that Retire_Rich, G_Poobah and I all agree upon.
Get rid of the USF. It is essentially welfare for the Telcos and Cablecos, which certainly don't need it (when was the last time you met a rich person who needed welfare, anyway?).
I say, to start, we ought to cut off USF funding for telcos and cablecos that have chosen not to wire rural areas. These rural areas are the ones that are supposed to be benefitting the most from the USF and they are seeing nothing instead. You choose not to do what you said you would do, so we aren't going to pay you. Period.
Yank the leash. The dog will sit.
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"It is my destiny to give back to the universe infinitely more than I have taken from it." -- Anonymous |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to G_Poobah
Its sounds more like the USF, with respect to schools at least, needs to reformed more than it needs to be tossed out. By simply removing the "approved items" requirement and allowing schools districts to bid out the equipment, school districts won't get stuck like that. That would allow schools to purchase the equipment they need not something that can run a datacenter like ThePlanet or NAC.
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Too logical to be a conservative... Too practical to be a liberal... Too realistic to be a Libertarian. |
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Jamuka
join:2005-06-06
| reply to G_Poobah
And you know who came up with this useless, stupid-ass, corrupt as hell, just another government boondoggle of a program (i.e. the eRate program)????!!!!
That's right, you guessed it Mr. Internet himself, the Tree,
AlGore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| reply to rileyjam514
said by rileyjam514 :I say, to start, we ought to cut off USF funding for telcos and cablecos that have chosen not to wire rural areas. These rural areas are the ones that are supposed to be benefitting the most from the USF and they are seeing nothing instead. You choose not to do what you said you would do, so we aren't going to pay you. Period. From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. USF (when it works) encourages sprawl. You want to live in an isolated area - pay the price for it, the full price.
The days are long since gone when this country needs to encourage exploration of its undeveloped areas. |
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Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs:
| said by DonLibes :said by rileyjam514 :I say, to start, we ought to cut off USF funding for telcos and cablecos that have chosen not to wire rural areas. These rural areas are the ones that are supposed to be benefitting the most from the USF and they are seeing nothing instead. You choose not to do what you said you would do, so we aren't going to pay you. Period. From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. USF (when it works) encourages sprawl. You want to live in an isolated area - pay the price for it, the full price. The days are long since gone when this country needs to encourage exploration of its undeveloped areas. So, according to you, people should just pack up and move, to pay a lower price for broadband? Wow, just, wow. |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to DonLibes
said by DonLibes :From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. ... A very interesting companion to my belief that when you go rural, you make choices--sometimes you pay more for or can't get things (broadband, piano delivery, Thai food) and sometimes you pay less or find it for free (taxes, rent, parking.)
You should just live with the consequences of your choices, and government interference should be limited to those situations where you have a tendency to make a personal choice that significantly bad for the community as a whole (no fly dumping of trash, etc.)
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to bmn
said by bmn :... By simply removing the "approved items" requirement and allowing schools districts to bid out the equipment.... Yeah, and then they'd use it to buy soccer balls and steel drums, claiming this encouraged students to "communicate internationally."
USF is just a slush fund, and most of it goes to telcos, anyway. The "E-rate" is only a portion that is used to give the whole corporate gravy train cover.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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wilbilt
Pronto Resurrected
Premium
join:2004-01-11
Oroville, CA
| reply to G_Poobah
said by G_Poobah : they have millions of dollars in Cisco 6xxx series core switches, fully loaded with 48 port and fiber blades, sitting in boxes in storage They are the ones that make the rest of us look bad. The installation, configuration, cabling, and maintenance are e-rate fundable. Unused equipment bought with USF dollars is a major screwup. According to the rules, it needs to be configured, installed and operating within 30 days of receipt.
There is a whistleblower link on the SLD website...go ahead, Poobah, pull the trigger!
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Rural users don't need broadband. We're just a bunch of hicks on Welfare. How about outsourcing your call centers to us? |
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :said by bmn :... By simply removing the "approved items" requirement and allowing schools districts to bid out the equipment.... Yeah, and then they'd use it to buy soccer balls and steel drums, claiming this encouraged students to "communicate internationally." Listing specific equipment, like saying schools can only purchase switch X from vendor Y, is what needs to be changed. You allow schools flexibility to purchase telecom and switching equipment that meets their needs, not artificial, one-size fits all guidelines. You can, of course, limit it to networking and connectivity gear only.
USF is just a slush fund, and most of it goes to telcos, anyway. The "E-rate" is only a portion that is used to give the whole corporate gravy train cover. Schools, libraries and other government agencies are going to purchase internet and data services anyway. E-Rate, while having been abused by some districts, is a program that helps schools to be connected. Its needs to be reformed and probably shifted out of the USF.
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Too logical to be a conservative... Too practical to be a liberal... Too realistic to be a Libertarian. |
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shashinka
join:2000-09-16
West Boylston, MA
| reply to G_Poobah
I agree that the USF also is corrupt. But I think you're wrong about what happened here and not even sure if the USF applies to equipment for linking schools together in a town. I thought the USF is for bringing telco lines into places that don't have the infrastructure or to subsidize the costs. I think the funds come from state and federal grants to upgrade all the networks. I myself had to install one of these networks in one new school. It may me sick. The plan was messed up with way too much equipment and incorrect design. What happens is a consulting firm is hired to design the network for the amount of ports that are in the buildings, they didn't seem to take in account that only about 20-30% of the ports would be used if that and that wireless was going to be used in many places. So there were something like 13 48 port switches (624 ports) when there were only about 100 computers for the whole building. There were 8 access points with only 5 needed to cover the whole building. The school was expected to be connected to the town via 1 gig single mode fiber direct but instead the town installed another switch with a gig connection but only 100M copper so the admin network and student network had only 100m each unless were were going to etherchannel 4 ports each (with crossovers), well that would be stupid. I told them what they needed to do. There was no scope of work and the Bill of Materials was all messed up. I went out there one time to do some more work and someone from the town network moved a couple cables around and crossed the networks. So we have all this equipment sitting there doing nothing and guess who pays for it! Well anyway it went to the lowest bidders (no power for the APs from the electrical contractor) and not what the customer expected. I was worried about making the job profitable but was running into all sorts of troubles. Luckily the company I was working for didn't do well and i got laid off and didn't have to deal with it any longer. Now I am making more money at a more stable company woohoo! |
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DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| reply to Cheese
said by Cheese :said by DonLibes :said by rileyjam514 :I say, to start, we ought to cut off USF funding for telcos and cablecos that have chosen not to wire rural areas. These rural areas are the ones that are supposed to be benefitting the most from the USF and they are seeing nothing instead. You choose not to do what you said you would do, so we aren't going to pay you. Period. From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. USF (when it works) encourages sprawl. You want to live in an isolated area - pay the price for it, the full price. The days are long since gone when this country needs to encourage exploration of its undeveloped areas. So, according to you, people should just pack up and move, to pay a lower price for broadband? Wow, just, wow. If broadband price is more important to you than your other reasons for living where you do, then yes. |
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cdigioia
Premium
join:2005-06-08
korea, repub
 ·Korea Telecom
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :said by DonLibes :From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. ... A very interesting companion to my belief that when you go rural, you make choices--sometimes you pay more for or can't get things (broadband, piano delivery, Thai food) and sometimes you pay less or find it for free (taxes, rent, parking.) You should just live with the consequences of your choices, and government interference should be limited to those situations where you have a tendency to make a personal choice that significantly bad for the community as a whole (no fly dumping of trash, etc.) calvoiper Totally agreed... |
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cdigioia
Premium
join:2005-06-08
korea, repub
·Korea Telecom
| reply to calvoiper
said by calvoiper :said by DonLibes :From an environmentalist point of view, USF should be killed outright. ... A very interesting companion to my belief that when you go rural, you make choices--sometimes you pay more for or can't get things (broadband, piano delivery, Thai food) and sometimes you pay less or find it for free (taxes, rent, parking.) You should just live with the consequences of your choices, and government interference should be limited to those situations where you have a tendency to make a personal choice that significantly bad for the community as a whole (no fly dumping of trash, etc.) calvoiper Totally agreed with the concept for the most part...however, in the specific case of broadband I disagree for two reasons.
The first reason is reason enough for me, the second reason I'm not sure can stand on its own.
1.) Its important to have a very connected nation so that US companies will be encouraged to develop broadband-intensive applications. Otherwise we'll be more likely to fall behind other parts of the world in terms of developing those applications/uses. And things like that tend to have a spiral effect (whether that be upward or downward)
2.) Broadband now, and more so in the future, will drive economic development. As such, its important to get it out to rural areas so that the nation as a whole can grow more economically. I put it in the same category as highways and electrical lines in terms of benefit. Sure its not a necessity...but neither are highways or electrical lines...or reading. People are always going to live in rural areas, so we need to make sure that most have access to broadband for economic development. |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| reply to Cheese
said by Cheese :So, according to you, people should just pack up and move, to pay a lower price for broadband? Wow, just, wow. That's exactly right. 
You want better security, move to a gated apartment complex, an apartment building with full time doormen and restricted access, or a gated, restricted access community. You want better schools, move to an area that has better schools. You want a better job, then move to an area that is economically vibrant. You want a better commute, move to an area closer to your work.
When I moved 3 1/2 years ago, I specifically looked for an apt complex that had a gate, was close to the freeway for my commute and had DSL, Cable and a Southern view for Satellite. I didn't sit on my ass whining about what I expected others to "give" me.
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Roe v. Wade is not "settled law". It is not engraved in stone. Any law, USSC Ruling, or any part of the US Constitution can be changed at any time by the People acting through their Elected Representatives in the form of a Constitutional Amendment. |
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frnkblk0
join:2002-08-25
Sioux Center, IA | reply to G_Poobah
Don't confuse E-rate with the larger USF fund. I'm not sure of all the numbers, but I think E-rate is only a single digit percentage of all the USF dollars given out.
Frank |
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Techman21
join:2005-04-14
Richmond, VA
| reply to G_Poobah
But they will still work. Just because they depreciate in value does not mean they depreciate in use. Schools used Apple IIs for the longest time. Why? Because they had a HUGE contract with Apple. And what happened after it ended? All the schools went to PCs. Of course after a particular president ordered that EVERY room in EVERY school would have a computer. What did this accomplish? Well from my first hand experience not much. Well, I suppose I did learn about a lot of java game sites I wouldn't beforehand. This is what happens when you put PCs into schools and in the classrooms. They *gasp* become a distraction. Granted some teachers let it become distractions, but it wouldn't have in the first place if they weren't there.
At any rate just because something loses monetary value in the computer world does not mean it is useless to function. Cisco is first and foremost a business and they will ALWAYS push for their clients to buy the newest and latest even if they do not need it. Heck Cisco stock just went up yesterday if the news was correct. And I hope the school bought some routers for those switches or they are going to be in a hurt when they try to wire everything up.
Honestly at my work we are using older Cisco equipment and they keep on ticking. Completely nothing wrong with that. If you are worried about the IOS vulnerabilities there are patches, although I'm sure there are bugs still to be discovered as always. |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to cdigioia
1) is essentially the same argument used to justify the postal service (and "post roads", now known as US highways) in the Constitution. An understandable argument, but one which fails when you view government's role as ensuring minimal access to the communications network, not the best access possible. Using this argument to justify universal broadband is like saying that every hamlet and homestead deserves not just a road and rural route mail delivery, but its own 4 lane interstate highway and a 24-hour post office offering special delivery on weekends. If you need more than dial-up, make that a part of choosing where you live.
2) is closer to a routine "economic development" argument than to traditional utility or highway justifications. Broadband may well be in the same category as community development--but then it can compete for funding with other "community development" projects, be they community driven development of office or industrial parks or modification of local conditions to favor deployment. Many communities, for instance, modify zoning laws to encourage various types of economic development. They can similarly modify street and road right-of-way conditions to encourage broadband development, for example. They can grant tax breaks for broadband facilities. But the underlying theme here is that localities can do this in the context of more general programs--not that we should create another huge federal slush fund.
(This is not to say that locally controlled economic development funding is automatically good just because it's locally controlled. One need only review the history of Walmart using locally controlled but federally funded [via federal tax exemption] "industrial" bonds to build retail outlets to see how quickly and far federal funding can wander.)
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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