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brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| [General] My Earthlink Line Powered Voice/DSL Experience
We were shopping for a voip/high speed internet access bundle and I happened upon the new Earthlink LPV offer here in Seattle ($70 for 8/1.5 max speed adsl2+ and line powered voice). We’re not usually early adopters, but the back of the envelope math ($70 minus our monthly local/long distance phone charges and our monthly dial-up charge was very close to zero) suggested this might be worth a try.
SIGNUP
I ran across the Earthlink LPV/DSL offer at the end of January. The new service appeared cheaper, easier to install, and way faster than competing VOIP/DSL or VOIP/cable products. I smelled a rat. I pestered the 888 ELNKVOICE people about the service, and they were clearly getting their sea legs under them. Upload speed? Didn’t know (they found out: 1.5 mbps). Digits needed to dial out? Not sure (they found out: 10). Most of my voip-centric adapter & rewiring questions didn’t get tossed aside like they should have. By and large, the Earthlink sales/technical people I spoke with were pretty helpful—two were really good. Still, I remained skeptical until, while crawling around on dialup, I found some information here at dslreports, and these at the Covad site: »www.covad.com/companyinfo/pressr···ws.shtml
»broadband.covad.com/products/whi···pper.pdf
I found all of that reassuring. I was going to pull the trigger on the deal, but upon rechecking the Earthlink “see if you qualify” tool I found that this service no longer appeared available to us. Long story short, some Earthlink sales guy had “accidentally” signed us up for it, and we were now pending “third party verification” so we were confusing the tool. We wanted the service now, anyway, but getting slammed with it seemed sleazy.
SETUP
About 20 days after signup I called to check on the status of our order. I was told that our phone line had been switched & our phone number ported over two days earlier (ahhh---that was why all of our local calls (7 digits, not 10) were “busy”). We’d probably received notice of this switch on our earthlink email account, but we don’t use it. Better yet, we’d be getting the modem that day. We did, and setup of the ZyXEL Prestige 660R-61 was pretty easy. Attaching the filter jacks? Easy. Understanding the setup instructions? Easy (very well done, if skimpy on troubleshooting). Clearing out the detritus of our dialup account took a little time, is all. My first line speed test, captured here at dslreports, was something like 2900/850 kbps. Not the 8000/1500 advertised, but when you’re from dialup land it’s satisfactory. Phone service was working well too.
PERFORMANCE
On the phone front, we’re totally pleased. Unless incoming calls are being dropped and we don’t know about it or something, it’s great. We even use a fax machine (brother mfc-8500) via the phone jack half of the modem jack, and it works fine. Calls seem as clear as ever (tests on testyourvoip.com bear this out).
On the DSL front, I’m just not sure yet. I’m not going to quibble about advertised max 8000 kbps download speeds vs. actual 2900 download speeds (not yet, anyway), but I am puzzled by intermittent near-freezing of our service. We’ll be fine for hours or days at a time (as was the case at 9:30 p.m. PST 2/27/2006 when I ran a speed test at dslreports), and then (like since about 10 p.m. PST 2/27/2006) our connection slows to a crawl; I've had a line speed tests with 6 kbps down, 850 kbps up. Then 3000/840. A day later, 70 kbps down, 850 kbps up.
What does Earthlink say when I check with them? They tell me various things—1/get rid of the modem jack—just go straight into the line, 2/eliminate the competing security software (we whacked the Earthlink software in favor of McAfee), 3/download spybot (or pay Earthlink $100 for a guy to check our machine remotely), 4/leave the modem jack but never plug a line into the second “phone” bay, 5/shut down and restart computer and modem. To date I’ve done whatever they tell me, so long as it doesn’t cost money, found no difference, and put things back. With the exception of whacking the Earthlink software and the hard restarts, none of the advice has made much difference. When this service works, it works like crazy; when it doesn’t, it doesn’t. (PS: it's now 11 p.m. PST and it's flying again).
SUMMARY
On balance this service is pretty great, but the maddening DSL slowdowns irk me. I can't say for sure if the problem is LPV DSL or us, and it kind of doesn't matter. The DSL service has shown itself to deliver 3100/850--if we can just get it to behave consistently we'll be very happy customers.
The phone aspect is like magic--and the simple, non-voipy installation makes me glad I missed the intermediate voip phase with adapters & rewiring. (Au revoir, Qwest.)
Hope this helps the folks who're interested--just wanna be a good citizen. | |
maccur
join:2004-12-21
united state
| Great for you. I'm an existing Earthlink DSL customer. But it's because my line is already provisioned for DSL that Earthlink can't tell if I qualify for LPV. Not unless I drop down to dialup and allow them to reprovision the line. This is a major bug, and Earthlink is supposedly trying to come up with a fix. Only time will tell. | |
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| reply to brand x
said by brand x  : My first line speed test, captured here at dslreports, was something like 2900/850 kbps. Not the 8000/1500 advertised, but when you’re from dialup land it’s satisfactory. Can you post your DSL Line Stats with the modem in it's normal location and then test out at the NID and post the new stats from testing there please.
»EarthLink DSL FAQ »How do I isolate my DSL signal?
»EarthLink DSL FAQ »How do I test at my NID? What does it look like?
Try the speed tests here as they seem to be the most accurate.
»EarthLink DSL FAQ »Where are the TCP/Web100 Network Diagnostic Tool Locations?
Regards,
Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
Witchazel
join:2006-02-10
Loganville, GA | reply to brand x
Also, I would suggest you contact elnkshaun@earthlink.net regarding your speed issues, your desciption suggests there may be something else causing the problems. | |
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| I would suggest that they wait until after line stats can be posted (to see actual Downstream Attenuation, Sync Rates, Noise Margins and Occupancy Percentages) as those values can be used to very quickly determine if the speed issue is local in the residence or further down the line back to the CO and DSLAM.
How do I check line statistics? What do the numbers mean and are my stats good?
quote:
Although what is monitored and the exact name may be different depending on manufacturer, the overall information is the same. Below are some of the common terms and measurements used to judge line quality. Remember these are not hard numbers but simply a generalization of line statistics:
SN Margin (AKA Signal to Noise Margin or Signal to Noise Ratio)
Relative strength of the DSL signal to Noise ratio. 6dB is the lowest dB manufactures specify for modem to be able to synch. In some instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an acceptable level. The higher the number the better for this measurement.
 6dB or below is bad and will experience no synch or intermittent synch problems
7dB-10dB is fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions
11dB-20dB is good with no synch problems
20dB-28dB is excellent
29dB or above is outstanding
Line Attenuation
Measure of how much the signal has degraded between the DSLAM and the modem. Maximum signal loss recommendation is usually about 60dB. The lower the dB the better for this measurement.
20dB and below is outstanding
20dB-30dB is excellent
30dB-40dB is very good
40dB-50dB is good
50dB-60dB is poor and may experience connectivity issues
60dB or above is bad and will experience connectivity issues
Always go with the basics of troubleshooting before involving a tech who is already spread thin as it is. 
Regards,
Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| Thanks for the help.
First, I just ran two successive line speed tests--one direct to NID (4186D, 847U), then one via internal wiring (3264D, 848U). Seems I'm losing something in the last 15 yards. About checking line stats--I'm going to work on this later, looks like it'll take a little time with this ZyXEL modem.
Second, with a little help I believe I've ascertained the main problem. First, the key symptoms:
*DSL download speeds that vary widely, from 3200kbps max to so slow I can't download a page to test. (upload speed seems to be locked in at around 847).
*Intermittent problems sending faxes, caused by "Poor Line Condition" (this predates the switch to Earthlink LPV)
The expert diagnosis, after some line testing? Water intrusion someplace between us and the CO. As a result of degraded line quality our standard download speeds are far less than they ought to be, and when its wet (as it so often is in Seattle) faxing fails, DSL staggers to a halt, and for all I know we're having standard phone problems, too. I have a trouble ticket with Earthlink to fix our line. More as it happens.
| |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| Some test results:
UPSTREAM
noise margin up
**internal wiring: 8
**direct to NID: 8
outlet power down
**internal wiring: 19
**direct to NID: 20
attenuation up
**internal wiring: 25
**direct to NID: 25
DOWNSTREAM
noise margin down
**internal wiring: 6
**direct to NID: 6
outlet power up
**internal wiring: 11
**direct to NID: 11
attenuation up
**internal wiring: 42
**direct to NID: 43
So. This battery of tests makes it appear the problem is someplace beyond our NID, right? I don't see much else in the ZyXEL diagnostics that looks useful--I'm all ears, though. | |
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Yes, it looks like the line from the NID to the CO is where the issue is..
One thing missing from the stats is the data sync rates up and down.
Regards,
Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| reply to brand x
I've found sync rates:
(snip)
WAN Port Statistics:
Link Status: Up
Upstream Speed: 1023 kbps
Downstream Speed: 4005 kbps
(snip)
Dr. Olds tells me those are the used line rate, not max attainable (makes sense, since this modem was sent to accompany a 8000/1500kbps service).
No idea what max attainable rate is. Ideas for finding such on a ZyXEL 660R modem? | |
tquan
join:2001-09-13
Mountain View, CA
2 edits | said by brand x :No idea what max attainable rate is. Ideas for finding such on a ZyXEL 660R modem? The modem is capable of much higher rates that what Earthlink/Covad are provisioning today. While Earthlink's service is ADSL2+, per the specs on Zyxel's site the modem tops out at 24Mbps download with 1Mbps upload for ADSL2+ service. Of course, with ADSL2+ you only get speeds like that on very high quality lines when you're ~4000 feet or less away from a CO or remote terminal. However, there are places in the world today where you can get ADSL2+ service in that category (no where in the US I know of though!) Check page 7 of this PDF for the max speeds possible with ADSL2+:
»www.dslprime.com/a/adsl21.pdf
According to this wikipedia article, Australia, Finland, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Slovenia, and Spain are among the countries where high rate ADSL2+ service is deployed:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSL_around_the_world | |
abarson
join:2006-01-31
San Jose, CA
| reply to brand x
Most DSL providers use service profiles to set the maximum and minimum attainable data rates for a selected service level. For instance, when you order a 3.0/768 ADSL service the numbers are actually the fixed maximum that the DSLAM will allow the CPE to train to. Typically a minimum is also assigned, and is noted in your service contract with the provider. Your actual synchronization rate is always within the specified min/max range, otherwise it is considered a degraded service and must be repaired.
Some providers don't use service profiles and don't perform any provisioning and allow the equipment to train at best effort; it's a lazy and cheap tactic that will eventually provoke a rash of trouble tickets. 
It's true that ADSL2+ offers the promise of much greater data rates, but loop length and condition are still the primary determinants in service data rates. I hope that tquan will post his data rates after the loop issues he found are resolved. | |
tquan
join:2001-09-13
Mountain View, CA
| said by abarson :It's true that ADSL2+ offers the promise of much greater data rates, but loop length and condition are still the primary determinants in service data rates. I hope that tquan will post his data rates after the loop issues he found are resolved. actually, it's brand x who seems to have the loop issues, not me. as for me, although my sync rates are a tad lower than brand x's (more on the order of 3500/800) given the fact I'm almost 12k feet out from the CO with a lot of exposed (overhead telephone pole) wiring between here and there I don't think this is bad at all. these are more than 2x the sync rates I get at the same location from ADSL providers. | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| reply to brand x
Quick update: after explaining to Earthlink the symptoms above, and after fielding lots of questions having nothing to do with the problem ("but is your phone service working right now?") we'll be visited by a Covad engineer on Thursday morning to (as I understand) pin down the location of the fault in the line and correct it.
BTW: we are ~9000 feet from the CO. | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| reply to brand x
To recap: thanks to a helpful Covad tech haunting dslreports I know why my service is erratic--wet, compromised line somewhere between our NID and the CO that slows me to a halt in bad weather. POTS is affected in that my fax kicks out "poor line condition" when it rains.
That in mind, the visit from a local Covad tech went okay, but we're still miles from resolution. I'm the proud owner of a newly strung dedicated cat 5 line from the NID to our modem, but that didn't make any practical difference. He dialed down our speed to 1500/386 to see if we have consistent performance, rain or shine, at those margins. (We miss the 3000/830 we were getting mosta the time--kinks aside, this LPV stuff is great.) Not really much else he could do--the line's not his.
Alas, post-change I've been knocking around between 1200/300 and 200/300 depending on weather, at one point slowing to a halt again. So now I guess I need to re-enlist Earthlink to go direct to Qwest to fix the line, then get us ratcheted back up to 8000/1000. So.
Question: the fact our copper is compromised between here and the CO--doesn't that make it likely that others' loops are as well, at that same spot? | |
tquan
join:2001-09-13
Mountain View, CA
| said by brand x :So now I guess I need to re-enlist Earthlink to go direct to Qwest to fix the line, then get us ratcheted back up to 8000/1000. So. Question: the fact our copper is compromised between here and the CO--doesn't that make it likely that others' loops are as well, at that same spot? In cases where an ISP partners with Covad, I always thought it was Covad's job to deal with the ILEC (in this case Qwest) for line issues. Isn't Covad the one who pays for the dry pair from Qwest?
Could be your line alone with a problem, or others as well. There's no easy way to tell. | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| reply to brand x
At some point on Saturday, my web access was shut down. I spent two more hours with Earthlink reps trying to debug the problem. Ultimately, it seems that Covad or the ILEC (Qwest) had pulled our line and was hunting for the water on the line problem, thus the persistent failures of PPP/PPPOE server tests and ping default gateway tests.
By Sunday afternoon I understood this. Sunday evening, a Qwest tech came around (at 9:30 p.m.(?!)) to do some testing. His first words were "I shouldn't even be here." He would not tell me what he was testing for (where the bad line is between us and the CO? Or is he just peeking at our NID?); he wouldn't even tell me his name. Said I was not the customer, just the "door opener". Okay, whatever. He yanks out a bunch of wires installed by the Covad guy just last week to send a clean line to our modem, packs up, and starts to leave. What'd you find in your testing, I ask. Ask COVAD, he says. You just pulled our DSL line, didn't you? Ask COVAD, he says. He leaves.
This morning, 7:15 a.m., I'm back on the phone. Now not only do we presumably have no DSL, we don't even have wires anymore. I spend one hour on the phone with Earthlink, then COVAD, then Earthlink. It appears maybe the problem is fixed, but COVAD will need to send someone back out to check and to do something about the wiring.
Business Interlude: I have now spent at least 10 hours on hold or talking with Earthlink or their representatives, and carved out hours of the day to be here for visits. We began receiving this service on February 20 or so, so our 30-day trial window was closing; I wanted to get the window extended in light of the fact that our service was dead. I call in. I learn that our "30-day trial" window began 20 days before we had the service or even received the gear. They start the clock ticking the day you order, take 3 weeks to deliver, then you have a 10 day trial window. That's bad business. Another hour on the phone, several escalations and reviews of my trouble ticket later, a supervisor for billing is able to 1/cancel the current month of fees and 2/assure me that if this service continues to fail, we can cancel without incurring cancellation fees. I get a reference number for the call.
I deal with my actual life for 1 hour, then get the wire cutters, electrical tape, and screwdriver and string a line from the regular phone jack, bypassing the now-dead DSL line. Aha: I can now access the web--DSL is working.
SO:
I am online at the ratcheted-down 1.5/.386 rate, which needs to be bumped back up.
I cannot verify whether the wet line has been fixed, because it's sunny.
COVAD will be arriving in the next 24 hours to fix the line and complete testing.
I am learning many acronyms. | |
Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
clubs:
| Wow, what an ordeal and it seems that Qwest is delivering sub-standard lines to Covad when they place the order from EL.  I wish the FCC would fine the ILECs for practices like this.
Sorry to hear of your problems dealing with this.
Regards,
Doctor Olds
--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time? | |
Schwinn555
join:2004-10-26
Portland, OR
| reply to brand x
I have no trouble believing Qwest may pull any trick in the book! I'm a rental property manager and a couple of years back had all sorts of issues with Qwest. For a period of time every person who moved in had trouble getting their service turned on for POT. Qwest was telling people all the wire inside the apt had to be replaced before they could have the phone working. Odd thing is the phone had been working fine just the day before when it had been turned off by the people moving out. This happened a number of times. They wanted over $200.00 and of course the new tenets wanted me to pay for it. The first time i hired an independent guy who found nothing wrong other then a need to switch the wires at the office some where. So the next time I made them send a guy out while I was there to watch and sure enough all it took was hime to call the right person. No wire problem at all in my buildings.After about the third time and me giving manegement and earful it hasn't happened since. I know this is different but the same in that Qwest is sometimes amazingly lame and or dishonest. Also now that they are pushing there own DSL at higher speeds they clearly hate letting Covad and Earthlink sell service on their lines. I know because I have 2 friends that work for Qwest who also helped straighten my issues out. All that said I've had great service from Earthlink over Qwests lines. | |
brand x
join:2006-02-01
Seattle, WA
| reply to brand x
Today's episode: The Waiting
Yesterday Earthlink & COVAD confirmed I needed to be at the house between 8 a.m. and noon so COVAD could 1/ do some final testing of the ILEC's "fix", and 2/ properly rewire the phone lines that the ILEC had yanked on Sunday.
So I'm making every effort to be accommodating, and say I'll be here. I fiddle around the house all morning (instead of, say, working). At 12:15 I call Earthlink and inquire as to the whereabouts of the COVAD tech. After some research, it turns out there was a miscommunication--COVAD's tech had me on the noon-four p.m. schedule.
So, the very model of patience, I take a deep breath and say "O.K." I stick around the house all afternoon. At 4 I call Earthlink and inquire again. After some research, it turns out COVAD seems to have cancelled the appointment, saying they'd already confirmed our interior wiring was good (true; except that on Sunday Qwest had pulled out the wiring COVAD had confirmed was good). Plus, it seems, Qwest is apparently saying "what wet line?", claiming the issue is resolved without having, you know, resolved the issue.
To COVAD's credit, they're apparently not satisfied with Qwest's "RESOLVED: WORKING AS INTENDED". The Earthlink rep says that COVAD and Qwest both want to send reps to our house to meet and discuss. What day can I be available? Well, ALL DAY LONG TODAY, I suggest (my patient, accommodating attitude now fraying a little bit). Why do they need to meet at my house? I ask. COVAD has logs of tests that show wet line between the NID and the CO; I have logs of my bad POTS and dead DSL in rainy weather. Why my house? The problem's not in my house (okay, yanked COVAD wiring excepted).
Anyway, they're going to meet here Thursday. My flexible schedule is making it possible for me to continue trying to accommodate.
SO: It's not really Earthlink's fault, or COVAD's fault, by and large (although today's no-show performance didn't endear COVAD to me). But the guy whose fault it really, really isn't is *me*.
At this point would I recommend Earthlink LPV? I have to assume I'm afflicted by a freakish set of circumstances, so believe it or not, I can't quite say "NO." My jerry-rigged wiring and all, I'm using the service right this minute (it's not raining). My wife is telling me I'm being way too patient and we should move to Speakeasy ASAP. Please let her be wrong. | |
jcricket
join:2002-08-30
Seattle, WA
| Man, your experience sounds even worse than mind brand x. But I can confirm that Earthlink's shady 30-day trial window is absolutely egregious. They start the window from when you order, not when you are activated. That's totally unacceptable, and that's one reason I would never go back to them (Strike #1). Plus, even though I cancelled my service within the original 30 day window, I got charged for a month! I had to call in and wait on hold for an hour to get that resolved. Strike #2.
Strike #3 is the hour-long plus hold times along with the runaround you get should they have to contact Covad and/or Qwest.
I was with Speakeasy, switched to Earthlink for the LPV/ADSL2+ service and then switched back to Speakeasy after only a couple of weeks when Earthlink couldn't get certain bugs with analog fax/modem devices resolved (apparently they're now resolved).
Speakeasy service has always been great and they have done their job in keeping in touch with Covad, and Qwest if necessary (making it so I don't have to talk to any other vendor but them). The $5-10/month "savings" for LPV and higher speed weren't worth the massive hassle of dealing with Earthlink.
If I wanted to deal with a major corporation I would have just gotten DSL service through Qwest. At least that way you cut out the middle-man.
If these independent ISPs and CLECs are going to survive they're going to need to make it transparent to the end-user just how many peolpe are "involved" in providing service. | |
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