40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
40883644 (banned)
Member
2006-Mar-24 1:49 am
$100.00 CPE, If you build it will they come?Is there a true need for a $100.00 CPE? What would you really expect and be satisfied with for features? Would a client radio be better and you add the antenna you need to achieve the distance necessary?
I had a lengthy meeting yesterday with a major antenna manufacturer and am giving this very serious thought because I think we can pull it off.
Please give your suggestions on features or would the following satisfy most needs.
Rugged IP68 weatherproof design Grounded for EMF protection. Flexible mounting on wall or antenna mast (up to 2.5 inch diameter) Powered through Ethernet cable Integrated lighting protection 100Mb Ethernet POE port Driver-less operation with true 'Plug and Play' Independent Uplink/Downlink Traffic Shaping based on MAC address, IP address or whole IP Subnet Auto Fall back data rate for long distance communication in noisy environments High level security with WEP / WPA / TKIP Encryption RTS/CTS - Fragmentation Control ACK Timeout Support for long distance connections Adjustable radio output power up to 17dB AP Client, AP Client Router, AP Router, AP Bridge, PtP Bridge, and WDS Modes PPPoE Client MAC Address Cloning DHCP Server and Client Static and NAT Router Bi-Directional Traffic Shaping Firewall Watchdog Timer Wireless Site Survey SNMP Support TFTP firmware upgrade support Web base Management System Compatible with IEEE 802.11b/g & IEEE 802.3 standards. Firmware can be remotely upgraded
This would be a client radio only, not an AP.
Rich www.highgainantennas.com |
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lutful... of ideas Premium Member join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON |
lutful
Premium Member
2006-Mar-24 2:23 am
said by 40883644:Is there a true need for a $100.00 CPE? All our WISP customers wanted a $99 outdoor CPE back in 2003. We even designed a 3x4 inch CPE PCB using IP2K CPU and Agere RF that would have cost only $50 to build. Sadly never had the money to build first batch and I got involved helping WISPs install $149 CB3 packages. If I get my own WISP going well, I may commission a $29 Atheros PCB, so I can give free CPEs to every customers. By the way, I am staying awake this weekend trying to fit that SR5 radio inside a the feed of 5Ghz grid antenna. All suggestions and links to 5Ghz feed manufacturers welcome. |
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40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
40883644 (banned)
Member
2006-Mar-24 2:51 am
"All our WISP customers wanted a $99 outdoor CPE back in 2003. We even designed a 3x4 inch CPE PCB using IP2K CPU and Agere RF that would have cost only $50 to build."
Radialink
Now add to that $50.00 radio the following.
A nice firmware set Nema 4 rated enclosure Mounting plate surge protection ground strap RF pigtail 12dB antenna mounting bracket hardware cable grip switching power supply poe injector box and shipping supplies
Now what are you up to $$$.$$? Are you still under $100.00 Any room for profit?
Rich www.highgainantennas.com |
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lutful... of ideas Premium Member join:2005-06-16 Ottawa, ON |
lutful
Premium Member
2006-Mar-24 3:29 am
said by 40883644:Are you still under $100.00 Any room for profit? I estimate sufficient NRE could create an outdoor CPE selling for $49 this summer. Everything you mention will be there but looking quite different than we imagine. I also wonder how much FON will charge for outdoor routers if they plan to sell Atheros indoor routers for only $25 each. » english.martinvarsavsky. ··· era.html |
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to 40883644
Can you do this in 900 mHz cause 2.4 is pretty useless out here in the rural areas. |
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superdogI Need A Drink MVM join:2001-07-13 Lebanon, PA |
to 40883644
said by 40883644:Now what are you up to $$$.$$? Are you still under $100.00 Any room for profit? Rich www.highgainantennas.com Rich, If You sold a stripped down CPE for $100 or less, There are some applications that I personally could use these for. While it wouldn't be all the time?, The need would still be there. I am currently using Netgear PCI adapters w/pigtails and LMR 400 runs for customers who are close, or only have 1 PC with no fancy requirements. Since I have a few thousand feet of LMR(Yes, a few thousand), it works out. I would be very interesting to see a cheap CPE like that for just such a situation?. |
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to 40883644
OK, I can actually talk about this now because the specs have been publically released and the first 1000 units have been ordered. MIT is having built an 802.11b/g router based on OpenWRT. The units should run in the $60 range. Because they are based on OpenWRT you will be able to take these units and easily turn them into low cost CPE. The OpenWRT base will allow you to customize the units to fit your specific needs and we made sure they had enough flash memory to add packages. Yes I know the are not in an external enclosure, but you could put it in one for about $15. They are also POE compliant. We tried to get Netgear to build us units based off the WGT634U, but they were not very cooperative so MIT went straight the the manufacturer. The Atheros radios work really well. Most of our nodes are indoors and we get solid connectivity within the mesh at ranges of 300'-500'. Here is a site with all the info and specs » www.meraki.net/nano.htmlThis has all come out of a project that I have been working on for the last year with » www.netequality.org which has the largest deployment of RoofNet in the world and is being used as a test bed for MIT. Here is a map to the current nodes » www.roofnet.net/map.php? ··· hacienda |
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Hey, that map looks like you tied in your own data overlayed on Google maps. Is that correct? How does that work? |
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I don't know all the detials, because I did not program it.
Basically there is information pulled from each node via a cron job. This info is thrown to a MYSQL server with an HTTP GET request, which updates the database. Then the Google API is is used to create the PHP page with the nodes. It took a lot of time and is still not done.
I think the plan is to have all the code to be available to the open source community, but don't quote me on that. |
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40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
to zack043
zack043
There are already $60, $50, and $40 indoor radio solutions out there that can be thrown in a rain resistant Telco box for $18, but add mounting hardware, a power supply, (not a cheapo linear wall wart), a POE injector, on and on and what do you have?, A home brew CPE that has no warranty and no support. Youre still talking about what has been done for years, using radios not designed for operation at -40F to 140F, Radios not designed for outdoor use, radios not protected from EMI.
The thread started out as "$100.00 CPE, If you build it will they come?"
A CPE manufactured by an experienced staff with manufacturers support and a warranty, not an indoor radio thrown in a Telco box...
Let me reiterate...
A complete CPE solution in an IP68 rated outdoor enclosure with pole or wall mounting hardware included. Switching power supply included for FCC and CE export. Power over ethernet injector included. Technical manual, customer support and a warranty.
A radio that has already been proven in the field. A radio that has proven operation at -40F to 140F, a radio with inline surge protection on all 8 ethernet wires and grounded through case.
A very very rich feature set.
Driver-less operation with true 'Plug and Play' Independent Uplink/Downlink Traffic Shaping based on MAC address, IP address or whole IP Subnet Auto Fall back data rate for long distance communication in noisy environments High level security with WEP / WPA / TKIP Encryption RTS/CTS - Fragmentation Control ACK Timeout Support for long distance connections Adjustable radio output power up to 17dB AP Client, AP Client Router, AP Router, AP Bridge, PtP Bridge, and WDS Modes PPPoE Client MAC Address Cloning DHCP Server and Client Static and NAT Router Bi-Directional Traffic Shaping Firewall Watchdog Timer Wireless Site Survey SNMP Support TFTP firmware upgrade support Web base Management System Compatible with IEEE 802.11b/g & IEEE 802.3 standards.
Believe me, this is a tough nut to crack even for the do it your selfer that doesn't consider his time in locating parts and assembling.
The whole purpose of the thread was to get people that keep asking for a $100.00 CPE to speak up and give input. I am not seeing it therefore there must not be the need.
Rich www.highgainantennas.com |
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to 40883644
Your feature list already sounds pretty complete.
RooTenna-style white package perhaps, would be a sweet setup.
If I had to toss in completely unneccesary options it would be choice of cicular polarization.
So ...... photos? Eval models? |
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to 40883644
I'll take a Motorola Canopy module for $100 that is the full Advantage enabled!
Yes there is definately a market for the $100 radio. Remember that a lot of us also have installation and miscellanious parts too totaling something like $50-$100 per install.
What we've tested in the past is what sells at $0 install (higher monthly), $99, $199 and up install.
This is highly market dependant. We've found that we lose x amount of sales my increasing the price $x amount of dollars. Our sweet spot for installation pricing is actually rising instead of falling. |
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PersComp Premium Member join:2005-08-17 Cayce, SC |
to 40883644
As someone that is still supporting my WISP until it can support me (and trying to conserve costs however I can), I feel that there is a market for this. If I am just being naive, feel free to smack me around for it.
So far my subs only want the online broadband service. They don't care about email (yahoo and hotmail accounts have been fine for them), VOIP, gaming, or anything else. They are the typical "send some email, surf the web, watch a music, sports, or news video" kind of crowd. I would certainly love to invest $100 instead of $200 in these customers.
I currently value my installations at $300. That is a $200 CPE, plus 2 hours @$40, plus $20 misc hardware, cables, and connetors. I charge a $99 installation fee. So I start out -$200. That means I begin actually seeing income at the 6 month mark @$35 per month. I know there is misc overhead. I am just using easy numbers to deal with.
I am also trying to get on a water tower that could service a non-DSL area so my monthly income and % of subs per population should be higher, and better ROI, but it hasn't happened yet...hopefully soon!! Either area could benefit from at least some of these CPEs I feel.
Why do we always preach to shy away from DSL and cable markets? Isn't it our start up costs and less monthly income? I realilze that we cannot compete with a $6 NIC and a $20 modem for $19.95 per month, but isn't it possible to compete with $100 less up front and maybe a $29-$35 per month rate??????
We do still have the service advantage! And it probably doesn't take 9 layers of auto attendant or a 2 hour phone call to get any of our customer service issues resolved!
Again, if I am being naive, feel free to let me know.... |
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John Galt6Forward, March Premium Member join:2004-09-30 Happy Camp |
to 40883644
said by 40883644:I had a lengthy meeting yesterday with a major antenna manufacturer and am giving this very serious thought because I think we can pull it off. That is a pretty rich feature set...! As Captain Picard would say..."make it so". |
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to 40883644
Highgain,
Looks like you might be copying and pasting specs from your website on a product that you are selling that is not to far from the price point you mention.
You obviously know what you want and you appear to be in the business of selling hardware. I am sure if you spec it out with some of the Asian assemblers you could have units built for you for well under $100. You would most likely need to order in lots of 1000, but I think it could be done.
If you are just asking is there a need for a sub $100 outdoor CPE with the spec you state, I think the answer is a definite yes.
I vote for an Atheros radio. The Nano's that I mentioned earlier use them and we have seen extremely strong penetration (compared to prism) with them. Just a tip, make sure you pay attention to the diversity antenna.
The reason I brought up the Nano is because most of the people in this forum want to be or are WISP's who are always looking for a less expensive way to get clients connected. I have not seen any $60 POE cable CPE devices on the market, so I thought it would be of interest to others here.
Cheers. |
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40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
40883644 (banned)
Member
2006-Mar-25 12:55 am
zack043
You are correct... This project would utilize our flagship radio with some changes.
Rich |
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to 40883644
I don't think you will be able to make a radio that will fit everyone's needs, and I doubt that is your intention. There is a place for a solid and reliable $100-200 CPE, even if it is somewhat low power(close installs). This unit will have shortcomings, and I, for one, am willing to compensate for those shortcomings so long as the unit is reliable and the manufacturer stands behind its product. Not to rehash past feuds, but it will be a damn nippy day in hell before I buy from SmartBridges or Electrocomm because of how they handled their little "oops" a couple of years back. Your unit has many features I would be willing to do without(I won't tell you which ) so long as it is a solid and reliable unit. |
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to 40883644
I agree with the other posters - a $100 cpe would be great! My basic needs are the routing/nat/dhcp functions, poe, variable output 100-250mw and some small software package that lets the customer know the unit is working and connected. I think most of the other features you listed are would be nice also, but it's interesting how things like the orinoco EC had no features, but worked really pretty good for a long time. I would favor stability over features.
I'd also like a selection of boxes/antennas from N connector only (std no charge) to 19 dbi that would only add $50 to the price. So this would be my install profiles
Close/in town - $100 cpe + $25 15db ant + cable/ends/misc
Farther/out of town - $100 cpe + $50 19db ant + cable/ends/misc
I'd like to be able to replace the guts for $40/each (antennas rarely fail in my case)
So when are you shipping?
Pat |
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to 40883644
I would be more than happy to trade the 100Mb ethernet port for a ping watchdog; traffic shaping for a reset-to-default on the POE; WPA / TKIP Encryption and MAC cloning for a nice site survey scanner. I am not looking to buy a $100 Cadillac, I need a $100 tractor that might be a quite a bit uglier but it will plow through anything I put in front of it. |
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40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
to harmetp
harmetp Your N-Female bulkhead thoughts have been my thoughts for the last couple months regarding this project. Believe it or not, we can do an N-female connector for the price of a 12dB patch antenna. We have our own 12dB patch design (built in PCB) and manufacture them 10,000 at a time. But that limits the unit to 3 miles and then your done. That's why I personally think a sub $100.00 client radio would have more usefulness then a CPE, but what's saying there can't be both. Rich |
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40883644 |
to Chele
Chele The proposed radio already has a ping watchdog and a software program to reset the radio back to default should you forget the IP, user name or have it lock up. We have done the POE reset feature but did you know 1 of the 4 wires 4,5,7,8 have to be used to do that? That leaves you with 4 & 5 for power and only 7 for ground the way we did it. Although it's a nice feature we found it was hardly used and the software program has replaced that. It also makes 300' CAT 5 runs very unstable. Your third swap is being worked on but MAC cloning will not be removed so it looks like you get your cake and can eat it too. Rich www.highgainantennas.com |
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to 40883644
You lost me there Rich, what is the difference between a "client radio" and a CPE? I would have thought that a bulkhead connector would be cheaper for you than the built-in antenna. I would want to have the option to pick my own antennae. I would have limited use for a CPE that only came with the built-in panel. Count me in for at least one unit if you can make it for $100, and more if the units prove to be solid! We are migrating to 5.xx, but we still have a large 2.4 base and it's not always possible to replace dead units or install new customers with 5.xx. |
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40883644 (banned) join:2003-06-05 Parker, CO |
40883644 (banned)
Member
2006-Mar-25 3:11 pm
Chele
The term CPE (customer premises equipment)has taken on the thought that it has a built in antenna and is an all in one solution. That is in fact not a good definition but what you will find popping up in a web search today.
The client radio is just that, no AP functionality and generally not an all in one device.
The terms have become a bit more generic over time.
Yes you would think a bulkhead connector would be less then a patch antenna with a pigtail attached but not in the volume we stock the two in. There is a difference but it wouldn't be worth the time to list the two items at two different prices, were talking less then $2.00.
When moving beyond 12dB, pricing changes quickly because of hardware costs.
Rich www.highgainantennas.com |
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to 40883644
Fair enough, include the bulkhead and the antenna , and charge for both! If the difference in cost is little, it might be worth it to you. If you offer it, I would be willing to pay for it. Just imagine, all the units are identical so there is no inventory or manufacturing issues(can't ship the wrong item). We have had to move equipment around, and I hate when we end up with units that have the panels. We actually stock several types of antennae, but not CPEs' with built in panels. |
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