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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | reply to gomer1701ems
Re: Tri-cities?
Fixed. | |
gomer1701ems
join:2001-08-23
Minneapolis, MN
| Oh, no problem. It's just that I've lived here all my life, and didn't know we had a "third" city! 
--
"Don't argue with stupid people; they will beat you with experience." | |
Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | I grew up in a part of NY called the "triple cities", so it was just a brain fart.  | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to gomer1701ems
Technically, right now, it's NOT the twin cities.. it's the St. Paul system that also covers some metro area. Minneapolis is served by Time Warner Cable, until later this year.
They have changed, internally, the system name to the Twin Cities System, but to the market place, this is still just the St. Paul system.
Voip is rolling out as of tomorrow here. It was initially going to be to the Sprint served areas only (maple grove, rogers, hamel, hanover, corcoran, and parts of Brooklyn Park) becuase they are not served by digital phone right now, but it's been launched to the entire served metro area.
There are already 200 orders in the system that are due by Saturday of this week.
Tell me it's not taking off like wild fire.
Sure it has a higher price tag, but you know what? You are getting a better service. You are getting a QoS that Vonage, Call Vantage and Sun Rocket can't give you. Those 3rd party voips are only as reliable as the ISP that it's on. It also gains reliability from their own infrustructure as well. But, 3rd party VoIP can't be compared to MSO offered voip AT-ALL! To do so IS silly.
Sorry to say guys, but the BWM-Hyundai comparison is very much valid here.
Look at this...
3rd party:
- Self install: not a good option for most people. Many want it tied into their home wires. Many don't know how to mess with the NID outside to remove themself from Ma Bell first.
- Service issues: You call up your Voip provider. "It's your ISP. Call the ISP, "we don't support that, call your Voip provider." The customer "I don't care, I just want it fixed." Unfortuantely, in this case, they just want their phone to work and not care who is responsible. However, in this case, YOU DO take the responsibility. It's no different than computers when they went clone. When somehting happened, was it the make of the computer? the new card that you put in it? or was it Windows causing the problem? Where do you go? There is no compare here.
- Call clarity: sure. Good service most of the time, but not always. I have vonage. Workds good most the time, sometimes the clarity sucks. (Hint: I don't use the TAD, I do call forwarding to my land line for my vonage calls. I have the out of area numbers to bring long distance callers in. Their calls simply get forwarded to land line and never touch my broadband connection yet the calls STILL sound crappy sometimes and with echos. Explain that?)
- Runs on the public internet with NO quality control.
- No batter back up service included. Optional by customer.
Cable MSO Voip:
- Professional install. Cable does all the work
- QOS: Priority for call traffic. Entire call is managed by the network.
- Monitored and serviced: MSO monitors the eMTA and performs in home service calls. Trouble calls are complted in 24 hours of time of call no different than the regular phone.
- Battery Backup: included with the eMTA.
- Call Quality: no different that digital phone.
So tell me, why should cable lower their price to match an inferior product? Why should the BMW be sold for the same price of a Hyundai? To ignore these facts, a blinded fool makes you. For $15.00 more, I am going with quality and superiority, not gimicy and cheap. Telephone is still a life line service and I want it to work when I need it to. I don't want to play with using the cell phone if my land line goes out, it's WHY I have a land line in the first place. Cell phones are expensive and the quality of them are crappier than 3rd part voip.
3rd party voip is still a techies toy and a service for the few that want to take a risk, make a change, or have no other options available to them. 3rd party voip will eventually die. | |
tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
2 edits | Fiberguy.. what you failed to point out, it might be "priority" on Comcast's network, but at some point, and trust me, it's a lot of points, they have to hand off to a IXC or other telco to get it through the other people who don't have VoIP, therefore, they no longer go to the head of the line. And as far as QoS, Comcast is a BIG monster therefore should provide nothing less.
VoIP is overrated. I just dumped SR and going back to SBC. WHY? Your battery backup isn't going to do you much good after a few hours of no A/C.. While cell users and VoIP users will see service drop like a rock after a few hours, my 34.00 a month POTS line will be working just fine, thank you very much.
As I work for a LARGE IXC who has both wireless and wireline, I remember seeing the MAJORITY of cell sites die after a few hours (except for the golden sites) due to the few hundred sites we have in this area, not all of them had generators. This was back during the big blackout about 2/3 years ago.
As far as the 40.00 for VoIP compared to POTS costs, it's WAY too much and after having it for a year, it's not a service I want to depend on. My family is worth more then the 15.00 I was saving each month by having SR. Till the FCC regulates or takes control and labels VoIP for what it really is or wants to be, a telephone service, in every word, people don't understand that VoIP providers can do what they want and when they want without having to answer to anyone or pay fines like a regular telco would have to (i.e., do upgrades on a friday afternoon knocking down 100% of the network). VoIP just isn't for everyone and for those thinking they are getting something for nothing will realize real fast that what they got is a fad gone wild full of bugs but is getting better but slower then they are growing. People see it as a way to stick it to the "Bells" but they find out over time that it's they who got stuck. One outage in the middle of the day might be ok, but 2 or more a year is unacceptable. Granted POTS has been around for years and people say VoIP is new. It's been around since the late 80's/early 90's. I use to use it in California back in 93 using my PC, microphone and headset. Sounded like crap but it worked and was free.
You post a good case but I'm here to tell you.. From a user and someone who has had to work with it's shortcomings. When that CISCO 12000 series router hick ups on a Friday afternoon, the one that's carrying cables customers tfc, and it has to be powered down and rebooted, a few thousand customers are not going to have service till the problem is fixed. And your right, if CC can fix the problem in 24hrs, it only takes me a few seconds to reboot the router, and maybe 45minutes for everyone to figure out what went wrong or the system is restored. It happens, has happened and will continue to happen. Short of a tornado, I've never had these kinds of issues with POTS. That's another reason I'm going back. CC, WOW, they are both charging for what you can have POTS for. Long distance? Who here doesn't have a cell phone w/Free long distance? My 1 or 2 calls a month on LD wasn't enough to keep me on the wagon. You will see these issues with just about ALL VoIP providers and CC will be no different. Rant off. 
- Call clarity: sure. Good service most of the time, but not always. I have vonage. Works good most the time, sometimes the clarity sucks. (Hint: I don't use the TAD, I do call forwarding to my land line for my vonage calls. I have the out of area numbers to bring long distance callers in. Their calls simply get forwarded to land line and never touch my broadband connection yet the calls STILL sound crappy sometimes and with echos. Explain that?) Ok, It's because your call is still traveling through a Network controller, to a network gateway, then back out to a ILEC or IXC to your lec. It's simple. Don't try to tell these people it doesn't travel without SIP because it does. It has to go through route lists, route tables and route plans, SS7, the works, all controlled by some Lucent box or Sycamore switch in some providers network center or telco CO. I wouldn't would be so quick to write off your quality problems to not being caused by your VoIP or the IP path. I was amazed by the handing off, path and process that makes this all work till I just completed a class on a Plexus 9000 »www.tmtelcomm.com/Products/telic···A900.htm . | |
TelecomJunky
Premium
join:2005-12-12
Kansas City, MO
| reply to fiberguy
said by fiberguy  :Sure it has a higher price tag, but you know what? You are getting a better service. You are getting a QoS that Vonage, Call Vantage and Sun Rocket can't give you. Those 3rd party voips are only as reliable as the ISP that it's on. It also gains reliability from their own infrustructure as well. But, 3rd party VoIP can't be compared to MSO offered voip AT-ALL! To do so IS silly. Sorry to say guys, but the BWM-Hyundai comparison is very much valid here. That is totally false. We have done extensive testing with our VoIP service with Comcast and Time Warner Cable customers that have their digital phone service and let me tell you, their is absolutely no quality improvement in the MSOs offering.
In addition, if they are offering QoS as they claim, then they are violating Net Neutrality and the FCC may have something to say about that. Hindering communications of competitors has already been addressed by the FCC in the Vonage case.
Regardless, of net neutrality, there is absolutely no difference in quality on the current systems and the battery backup can easily be solved with a battery backup for the end users cable modem/router and ATA. And when you compare $20 unlimited to $40+ unlimited there is no question who is the winner for the consumer.
The big problem is the cable MSOs have a direct window into the home of their customers through their TV and through their monthly bill and that gives them a significant marketing advantage over competing VoIP providers. And they will continue to do so as long as they are allowed to block ads for competing services on their network.
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-----»hotcarl.diaryland.com | |
SomeDudeSomeWhere
@comcast.net | What makes you think they are not doing QoS or traffic shaping? | |
TelecomJunky
Premium
join:2005-12-12
Kansas City, MO
| Because we have done extensive testing with our VoIP service on their network. We have done extensive comparison testing as well.
In all cases their is no evidence of any QoS. In fact, in reports of jitter, etc... we came out slightly ahead of the cable MSOs.
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-----»hotcarl.diaryland.com | |
SomeDudeSomeWhere
@comcast.net | That may be true of VoiP what about DATA. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to tc1uscg
tc1usg,
The ONLY part of the VOIP call I am talking about is the part that actually travels as a call as data. There is nothing traveling over any telephone call that any one carrier can give a QoS. Again, I am ONLY talking about the portion of the call that is actual data packets. Comcast, and I only speak of Comcast, can control the quality of that data packet. 3rd party can't control any of the last mile packets from the customer's home.
Further, you and I agree largely on VoIP in general. I do not care for it, want it, and I think it's a toy! I think everyone is trying to shove everything through the internet which is bad bad bad. I have Comcast digital Phone, classic switched. It's network powered and stayed up for 2 days when we had storms last year. I do NOT beleive that a $15 savings is worth the safety of my family, home, and health. Others do. If you read my other posts, I have been saying the same thing as you all along.
HOWEVER, my post was LARGELY comparing the two flavors of VoIP on those merrits alone. If I HAD to choose between Vonage and Comcast Digital Voice, I would take Comcast over Vonage anyday. In our system, Comcast DTS is going to go away and everyone will have to take CDV or drop service all together. I will be heading back to Qwest when this happens, even as much as I HATE Qwest, I will NOT depend on ANY VoIP unless I HAVE to.
Also, my point on how my vonage does work and how the quality is still not good EVEN when it doesn't hit my broadband was to further prove my point. People will blame the poor call quality on the last mile broadband connection. My point is that it's not just the local broadband carrier that is the cause for poor voip quality. The fact that Vonage DOES carry calls from out of areas over the public internet STILL comes into play. People continually look at their local broadband provider as the cause of poor phone call quality. My point was simply that taking out the local last mile broadband, and VoIP calls are still not up to par to that of a traditional phone service. I AM, in fact, blaming the phone quality on the VoIP carrier ALONE... nothing more. That's my whole point. VoIP carriers can't control the quality of their calls. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to TelecomJunky
Ahh yes.. it's the Vonage guy, or who ever you work for.
No, nothing I said was "totally false" and to think that my statement was "totally false" is "totally false"...
You can test your service all you want. Proof is in the puddin' bud.
I spend about 5 hours a day on the phone with customers on both CDV and TimeWarner phone. BOTH of those customers calls are 100% better than those people I have spoke to using Vonage, or Call Vantage. However, I will say that Call Vantage is far superior, in my opinion to the ear, than Vonage.
I also HAVE vonage. I have made calls using Vonage over my two different broadband lines and I, having put my hands on MANY CVD installs, can tell you that Vonage is still far less superior. (For the record, my two connections are crystal clean - and *WE* have done 'extensive testing' as well.)
You say they are violating Net Neutrality? WHAT net neutrality as far as FCC in concerned. Please show me the FCC NN rules. The cable company is very much allowed to ensure their products work. Simple question, have you read the recent supreme court ruling on cable companies...? .. at all?
Some how, you are able to turn this into a position of who has better marketability. That's just absurd and you know it! Comcast has to advertise to their own customers as much as the rest. In fact, here, CDV is just launching and I STILL see more of those annoying Vonage comercials than I do the annoying Comcast CDV comercials. If I see that stupid kid throw the bat through the window (as if it were an accident - get better actors ) again, I will throw the tv through the window.
Your post is full of claims that are just silly and sound like they are coming straigh from the mouth of the corporate big wig excuse makers at the VoIP company you work for.
I am not sticking up for any corporation period. I am simply refuting the claims you are making that are plain silly.
You claim that the price is the only thing that matters.. to who? Your target audience is who. YOUR target audience, by default, is the thrifty shopper/spender. You guys are targeting those that want a cheap phone company. NOT EVERYONE wants CHEAP phone service.. there are MANY people that want REALIABLE phone service. NEITHER Vonage, 3rd part voip, or even MSO managed Voip, in my opinion and based on statistics in general, is realiable phone service. | |
fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| reply to TelecomJunky
said by TelecomJunky :Because we have done extensive testing with our VoIP service on their network. We have done extensive comparison testing as well. In all cases their is no evidence of any QoS. In fact, in reports of jitter, etc... we came out slightly ahead of the cable MSOs. Pure B.S. and corporate shilling at it's best. | |
RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
 ·AT&T Midwest
| said by fiberguy : Pure B.S. and corporate shilling at it's best. Labelled by an expert at it. Do you really have the Comcast logo tattooed on your ass?
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Toolmaster of La Grange. | |
tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI | reply to fiberguy
That's true. People also forget that the eqp they are using, modem, router and even the punchdown block inside the house, can cause as much a headache as the ISP.  | |
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