72245156
TSWB.org
Premium,ExMod 2000-04
join:2000-07-11
Winnipeg, MB
|  Message From The Founder ( Caution - Long Rambling Post!)
You know, it's really too bad that there are 2 separate heated discussions going, one here in this forum, and one in the Team Helix forum, and people putting their own spin on things and patting each other on the back. Especially it seems there are people trying to drive a wedge between teams, us vs. them, status quo vs. progress. Single vision focus vs. the big picture.
There are so many spins that the goal is obscured. What is that goal? What is it that the leaders of this team are trying to accomplish? We want to provide a strong, united distributed computing community here at BroadbandReports.com. We want these forums to be home to any cruncher who runs a DC project. None of this "Sorry, we don't have a team for that project", more like "Hey, let's consider that project for a team here".
With BOINC, some of these extra projects are a snap to run, simply a matter of entering a URL and password and you're done. Most of us only want this one DC application running on our computer, and that application is BOINC. We're mostly SETI stats or science freaks, that is true, but we do want to contribute something else at times, or have a meaningful backup project. We have members who wish to run something that might help cure diseases, but don't want to install other applications. We have people that come to BBR, get help with a problem, and then want to give back to BBR by joining our BOINC Rosetta@Home team, but we don't have one, not officially anyways. Well, make a team then? What's stopping you?
Politics I suppose. The battle between members who wish to stay focused vs. those who wish to broaden the horizons. Worries about losing their members CPU cycles to another project if it's offered. Spreading the power to thin. Valid worries? Perhaps, but not when you look at the big picture.
Once upon a time a group of active DSL Reports member thought it might be fun to make a team for SETI@Home. It was pretty much the only DC project back then and they had fun. They wanted to make it into the top 10 teams. They organized and recruited more members from DSL Reports and in no time, not only were they in the top 100 teams, they were in the top 10 teams.
At some point, one of the team's members brought forth the project called Folding@Home, and a lot of members thought "Hey, this is a better use for my computer". A DSL Reports team was formed and the project was discussed from within the SETI@Home club's forum and no one minded. Eventually the team grew larger than they were granted their own forum.
As time went on, more teams were allowed to form, and the existing clubs were allowed to decide on their own which project their team ran. Team Discovery was born at some point running a project on the United Devices platform. I can't remember at what point they were granted their own forum, but with very few DC projects around back then, it ended up being a good way to do things, each team to their own forum, and smaller projects without forums, but still bearing the DSL Reports name using the General Distributed Computing forum such as RC5, Climate Prediction and Distributed Folding.
But everyone had fun.
How did all of this politics enter into things? I'm not sure. Structured rules for creating teams. No more "create the team and then we can examine it's merits". No, now it's "well, lets see if enough members want to run it, although we won't let them make a team since it might take away from our team's goals". We must follow the process we have laid out. The current policies as created by a very few members here at BBR can do nothing to help our DC community grow.
Enough of the politics. Let's get back to having fun. Team Starfire is the BOINC club for BBR. Not because we want to be. Not to be selfish. To help the DC community at BBR grow and be strong. BOINC is the future of Distributed Computing with all of the top clubs in the world supporting many of the projects running on the platform. We will not let narrow minds cause distributed computing at BBR to be left behind. If that means we must take projects that are not space or earth science related under our wings, then that is what we must do. When the time comes that the other BBR clubs are prepared to move forward, then the BOINC teams will be ready for them. For now though they have defaulted to us since the other teams at BBR don't want them.
To the members of Team Helix and Team Discovery: Do not be afraid that we are out to take your ground. Your ground is very secure. You have dedicated clients and dedicated crunchers. They would not switch to a BOINC based program unless you asked them to. If you took on a BOINC based project you would gain nothing but new members, possibly even for your dedicated programs. We tried reason, but your focus is narrow, and for your teams that is a good thing and it works. Please do not complain that our focus is a bit wider then. We will not cover ground you already have covered. We will not compete with your for members for the same field of distributed computing. We are only interested in BOINC and we understand your reasons for not wanting it. But do not tell us not to crunch what you don't want. We will not be left behind while the world moves on.
So, let's drop the politics and grandstanding and get back to crunching. Crunching whatever it is we want to crunch and do it as a team. Stop worrying about someone else treading on your ground. Let's go back the old ways and just do it and have fun. And if the members wish to have a team on a certain project, then they should be allowed to have that team without jumping through hoops. We have a DC forum for that purpose. The only reason for rejection of a BBR DC team should be that it violates a BBR policy, such as the project being for profit, or exact replication of an existing project already run by a BBR team. Other than that the team will either succeed or fail based on it's merits.
You know, members of other clubs look in here and wonder: "What the heck? Why all this talk about making teams? Why not just do it? All that politics take the fun out? We'd never grow if we did that!" It's a wonder our teams do continue to grow. Actually, I think we are mostly stagnating although our computers are growing stronger. We need to grow strong as teams though.
We have the opportunity to give BroadbandReports.com the strongest DC community in the world. Let's not miss it. Let's have fun doing it. And let's not hurt each other along the way.
Kinguni
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MikeC
Premium
join:2001-09-24
Des Plaines, IL | Thanks!! |
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tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
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Hoboken, NJ
clubs:    | reply to 72245156
Nice to get your opinion. |
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HFB1217
The Wizard
Premium,ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-26
Camelot
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4 edits | reply to 72245156
Hell I'm for what ever works best for the most. With rules yes but not so much so as to be stifling and constrictive.
Modernisation and new views are the life blood of this Site.
Hell I remember when our concern was should we allow a forum not related directly to DSL/Broadband. When the Hardware, WEB Page development and the Adobe forums were talked about the question was were they broadband or not. But we looked forward and broadened our scope of vision and look what we collectively have done. Some times screaming and dragging our feet. But just look.....!
A first Class World renowned Site was born from the Humble start up 5 forums and a few thousand people.
Folks vision and luck made us that and not parochialism and narrow mindedness on anyones part.
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****aka The WIZARD **** A Founding member Seti BBR Team Starfire**** |
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pudding
Premium
join:2000-02-13
Calgary, AB
clubs: | reply to 72245156
Thank you, Ron. Well said.
I support your vision for the team.
==
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What part of that did I understand? |
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John Keck
Official Boinc-Er
join:2003-01-20
Vicksburg, MS
clubs:
| reply to 72245156
Good speech. I agree completely. I was involved in some of the discussions and was quite disappointed with how narrow the perspectives of some of the other people involved were. However on the other hand I think a single BBR BOINC team is the way of the future. If that falls to team starfire by default then so be it. |
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paul
Granpa Paul
Premium,MVM,ExMod 2006
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clubs:
| reply to 72245156
An excellent post, Ron. This is just one example why we are here standing with you, and support your ambitions. It's truly been an honor to have you as our founder and leader all these years. Kudos.
I might add that, in my mind, this has always been your stance. The presumption, theories and suspicions caused by your beliefs by outsiders should be laid to rest by this and other threads pertaining to this subject if one would read with an open mind.
Paul
--
Distributed Computing.... The Search....
Proud member of the Cajun Crunch Team |
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CyberSchnook1
Disciple of Christ Jesus
Premium
join:2005-08-26
USA
| reply to 72245156
I think you hit the nail on the head, Ron!
Let's keep the wide-angle lens at maximum aperture, and forget the tight-shot tunnel-vision.
It just works better to keep doors open rather than slam them shut; ruffles fewer feathers, and wastes less time arguing over what in a few years will be looked back upon as trivia.
We've also had some great cooperative between teams--TD and TH crunching for Starfire in our race against AnandTech; Starfire repaying in hours or units. Pulling together to put AirBen01 over 100K before he died all too young. The Honor Guard in Memoriam.
We used to be civilised and friendly; now too often we're beginning to look like Barbarians and Mongol hordes.
We used to have site-wide cooperation and fun; now we seem to be sliding toward isolationism and territorial wars. I like the first choice a whole lot better!
--
THE SENILITY PRAYER : Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference. |
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m00kie
Yes, Nurse Ratched
Premium
join:2000-09-11
| reply to 72245156
Thank you for your post, Ron. It really encapsulates who we are and why we're here as well as our vision for the team.
I will only be running projects under Boinc whether "official", or not. I prefer to crunch as a member of this community and as such I would prefer those Boinc projects to have official recognition.
So, I will crunch for Boinc BBR Starfire or Boinc BBR Helix or Boinc BBR Discovery. If it happens that none of those exist, then I will crunch for Team Starfire until such time as people come to their senses.
--
Expand your universe... Join BBR Team Starfire |
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perryjay
One of the Ten
Premium
join:2002-01-25
Daytona Beach, FL
| reply to 72245156
I'm one of those that came to BBR for help and decided to give a little back. I had a few extra CPU's and thought Seti looked like fun. When the switch was made to BOINC I went ahead and installed it. I'm still crunching for SETI.
I don't pay much attention to the other clubs because I picked SETI. No one told me I had to pick SETI and no one told me I couldn't join one of the other clubs. I'm having fun just helping out with SETI, I'm really not interested in spliting off into other fields. I don't put someone down for picking another field and I dont want someone telling me I have to add some other field. If someone tried I would probably just shut down and uninstall BOINC. I'm funny that way.
As I said, I joined S@H to give back a little to this site and to have some fun. When it stops being fun I leave. |
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Sat_Man
Monotonous Isn't It
Premium
join:2001-09-14
Gray Court, SC
| reply to 72245156
Great Rambling post there Ron!  The bottom line boils down to whether Boinc projects will be allowed or not on BBR. The disdain of Boinc from other projects that don't use it is detrimental to the DC community. Failing to encompass all aspects of DC turns away many viable and important projects. If other Boinc projects are banned from BBR then these projects will fall between the cracks.
•Einstein@home: search for gravitational signals emitted by pulsars.
•SZTAKI Desktop Grid: search for generalized binary number systems.
•LHC@home: improve the design of the CERN LHC particle accelerator
•World Community Grid: advance our knowledge of human disease.
•SIMAP: calculate protein similarity data for use by many biological research projects.
•Climateprediction.net, BBC Climate Change Experiment, and Seasonal •Attribution Project: study climate change.
•Predictor@home: investigate protein-related diseases.
•Rosetta@home: help researchers develop cures for human diseases.
•Quantum Monte Carlo at Home: study the structure and reactivity of molecules using Quantum Chemistry.
•SETI@home: Look for radio evidence of extraterrestrial life.
Either we are a true Distributed Computing community or we are just a few teams fighting each other for members and control. Lets look at it not as teams but as individuals that want to make a contribution to the sciences that each project is accomplishing. Then allow teams to encompass those contributions.
--
Fred USAF Retired
Join Team Starfire
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tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
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| The issue, as I understand it, has to do with (potentially) only two of the projects you've listed. Predictor@home: investigate protein-related diseases and
Rosetta@home: help researchers develop cures for human diseases appear to be similar to existing projects supported by BBR. The other projects do not appear to be in conflict with existing teams, and as someone said,
quote:
Well, we're scrapping Rosetta@Home as a possible team project. If Team Discovery ever decides to pick it up then it's their choice. Primary back-up project is Einsten@Home, with LHC@Home an option as a 3rd project. All are science based in relation to the universe and should give us more than enough to chew on.
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72245156
TSWB.org
Premium,ExMod 2000-04
join:2000-07-11
Winnipeg, MB
| Sometimes we need to make tough decisions when the other players choose not to play on the same field. Change can be good. We choose not to be left behind and to be leaders rather than just players.
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PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
clubs:
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Why don't teams Helix and Discovery pick up Predictor and Rosetta if its similiar in scope to what they already run? I understand its a different project with different teams but it has similiar goals -- and isn't that what these teams are about, finding cures?
I'm sure alot of people will stay on their existing clients but I can deffinitely see where people already using bionic, may simply want to join another project to crunch during seti downtime or even structure it so its crunching projects on a 50/50 type basis. As a user, I like not having 20 clients taking up space.
From what I've read thus far, I think Helix and Discovery need to accept responsibility for these bionic projects or drop the subject and let Team Starfire pick up the slack as they mentioned.
Its really disappointing to see something so simple become so political and complex.
--
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tmpchaos
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| reply to 72245156
What I'm (unfortunately) seeing here is a group (or even part of a group), acting independently here, and deciding what they think is best. And then running with it.
--
Bush implies I'm a traitor. I'm proud of that.
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Xaak
You'll find me at T S W B.org
Premium
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| said by tmpchaos  :What I'm (unfortunately) seeing here is a group (or even part of a group), acting independently here, and deciding what they think is best. And then running with it. Well, everyone is free to see what they want to see, regardless of the facts. It doesn't mean what they see has any basis in reality.
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Xaak
Xaak Consulting, LLC |
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mig
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join:2000-10-26
Anytown, USA
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| reply to 72245156
Please bear with me all of you here with Team Starfire.
I would like to understand exactly what Team Starfire is wanting in the DC community here at BBR.
1. Is there some displeasure with Team Discovery? I read that there might be, because they don't want to adopt the BOINC platform.
What project that runs under BOINC conflicts with Team Discovery? Rosetta@Home? World Community Grid? All of the projects that are listed by Sat_Man are very worthy projects and I don't see how they conflict with Team Discovery. They simply are not doing the same thing that we are doing at Team Discovery with our dedicated client, (I think the word Rosetta has confused many people, myself included at one time)
You are right when you say that we have a "narrow view" but that is the hand we are dealt with by United Devices. Can someone here name me one project supported by BOINC that is actually crunching molecular data that is being targeted by proteins that are possible targets for cancer therapy and being submitted to any Cancer rresearch group for analysis? I don't ask this in a smart *ss way, it's just that I am unaware that any of the projects under BOINC are capable of this and that is one of a few reasons why I crunch for Team Discovery.
My question is, and it may be stupid, but why does Team Starfire not change its focus to BOINC in general with sub (teams) of all the projects contained within Starfire
I really am only trying to understand exactly what it is you are all wanting. Maybe I'm the one who is confused? 
I really come in peace  |
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HFB1217
The Wizard
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join:2000-06-26
Camelot
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1 edit | said by mig :Please bear with me all of you here with Team Starfire. I would like to understand exactly what Team Starfire is wanting in the DC community here at BBR. My question is, and it may be stupid, but why does Team Starfire not change its focus to BOINC in general with sub (teams) of all the projects contained within Starfire I really am only trying to understand exactly what it is you are all wanting. Maybe I'm the one who is confused? I really come in peace You and your questions are not stupid but fair and valid. Your concern and interest is understood and appreciated. The question is exactly what you have posed. But the solution is not as simple as it appears.
Part is the conception or misconceptions of conflicts of purpose with Boinc projects and already running DC projects here on site.
The rest of your interpretation of the problems or it's solutions is correct. But at this time there is a need to reassure all involved that no one is poaching members, goals or scores. All this is further confused by politics and bruised egos on both sides of this situation.
So right now there is no simple answer and it also needs time to cool off and find common points to agree upon and move slowly forward to resolve all the issues.
--
****aka The WIZARD **** A Founding member Seti BBR Team Starfire**** |
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Xaak
You'll find me at T S W B.org
Premium
join:2002-06-19
| reply to mig
said by mig :Please bear with me all of you here with Team Starfire. I would like to understand exactly what Team Starfire is wanting in the DC community here at BBR. 1. Is there some displeasure with Team Discovery? I read that there might be, because they don't want to adopt the BOINC platform. What project that runs under BOINC conflicts with Team Discovery? Rosetta@Home? World Community Grid? All of the projects that are listed by Sat_Man are very worthy projects and I don't see how they conflict with Team Discovery. They simply are not doing the same thing that we are doing at Team Discovery with our dedicated client, (I think the word Rosetta has confused many people, myself included at one time) You are right when you say that we have a "narrow view" but that is the hand we are dealt with by United Devices. Can someone here name me one project supported by BOINC that is actually crunching molecular data that is being targeted by proteins that are possible targets for cancer therapy and being submitted to any Cancer rresearch group for analysis? I don't ask this in a smart *ss way, it's just that I am unaware that any of the projects under BOINC are capable of this and that is one of a few reasons why I crunch for Team Discovery. My question is, and it may be stupid, but why does Team Starfire not change its focus to BOINC in general with sub (teams) of all the projects contained within Starfire I really am only trying to understand exactly what it is you are all wanting. Maybe I'm the one who is confused? I really come in peace The displeasure has to do with your DCS reps. But they are your reps and therefore, unfortunately, that reflects on your entire team. But I get to that in a moment.
First a couple of facts. WCG's boinc client crunches the exact same data and returns the results to the same project as UD. It uses the same version of the underlying software as UD. Baker Labs Boinc works on improving the Rosetta sofware underlying both WCG and UD clients, among other medical uses.
The displeasure with at least some your DCS reps, and Helix's for that matter, is due to there complete unwillingness to even discuss allowing a boinc based medical project here on BBR unless they choose to adopt it. We've even been told to go crunch medical projects someplace else.
I even pointed to your posts in the DC forum thread outlining that the Baker labs project was not in conflict with anything either discovery or helix was doing. That the point when facts stopped getting discussed and certain measures were used to derail that conversation. That's all I can say about that.
The reps from Discovery and Helix seem to think they own the sole right to decide what medical projects are run here on bbr, and how they're run. The proposal they've put before the DCS and passed, referenced here: »Re: [BOINC] Focus (part 2) is their attempt to make that the law of BBR.
All we want is to be able to crunch a medical project under the BBR banner using boinc. And, in effect, we been told that we can only cruch the projects Disco and Helix tell us we can, the way they deem appropriate. The alternative was to go crunch Boinc medical projects someplace else.
You've been courteous in both the DC Forum thread and here, and willing to discuss this issue. I wish your DCS reps would do the same, but they're your reps and we can't control that. I will try to answer any other questions you may have to the best of my ability.
--
Xaak
Xaak Consulting, LLC |
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mig
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-26
Anytown, USA
clubs:
| said by Xaak :The displeasure has to do with your DCS reps. But they are your reps and therefore, unfortunately, that reflects on your entire team. But I get to that in a moment. Lets not bring them into this discussion please as it really is not addressing the questions that I asked.
said by Xaak :First a couple of facts. WCG's boinc client crunches the exact same data and returns the results to the same project as UD. It uses the same version of the underlying software as UD. Baker Labs Boinc works on improving the Rosetta sofware underlying both WCG and UD clients, among other medical uses. Xaak you are only semi correct in that WCG crunches Rosetta and returns that to ISB, but they do not crunch for cancer. That is done soley by UD and Grid for which we at Team Discovery are doing.
I refer you to the Projects of WCG
»www.worldcommunitygrid.org/proje···earch.do
Thay are not crunching for a cancer project
said by Xaak :The displeasure with at least some your DCS reps, and Helix's for that matter, is due to there complete unwillingness to even discuss allowing a boinc based medical project here on BBR unless they choose to adopt it. We've even been told to go crunch medical projects someplace else. I can't speak on that as I'm not a member of the DCS. But you won't find me fighting you if you want to crunch for Rosetta@Home. However, if you crunch for WCG Rosetta then you are duplicating our efforts at Team Discovery.
said by Xaak :I even pointed to your posts in the DC forum thread outlining that the Baker labs project was not in conflict with anything either discovery or helix was doing. That the point when facts stopped getting discussed and certain measures were used to derail that conversation. That's all I can say about that. I empathize with you on Rosetta@Home
said by Xaak :The reps from Discovery and Helix seem to think they own the sole right to decide what medical projects are run here on bbr, and how they're run. The proposal they've put before the DCS and passed, referenced here: » Re: [BOINC] Focus (part 2) is their attempt to make that the law of BBR. All we want is to be able to crunch a medical project under the BBR banner using boinc. And, in effect, we been told that we can only cruch the projects Disco and Helix tell us we can, the way they deem appropriate. The alternative was to go crunch Boinc medical projects someplace else. I guess there's no chance of me convincing any of you here to load up the UD client and crunch for a cure for Cancer?
said by Xaak :You've been courteous in both the DC Forum thread and here, and willing to discuss this issue. I wish your DCS reps would do the same, but they're your reps and we can't control that. I will try to answer any other questions you may have to the best of my ability. I don't have any problems with Team Starfire crunching for Rosetta@Home.
Good luck! |
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