ronpin
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join:2002-12-06
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 ·AT&T Southwest
2 edits | Really?
Is ATT really avoiding fees? -- or just the legal blackmail and extortion that Franchising Authorities have enjoyed thus far? Isn't it really about the free infrastructure and perks for City Gov.? -- all things that exact a "hidden tax" on you.
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marigolds
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Saint Louis, MO
| said by ronpin  :Is ATT really avoiding fees? -- or just the legal blackmail and extortion that Franchising Authorities have enjoyed thus far? Isn't it really about the free infrastructure and perks for City Gov.? -- all things that exact a "hidden tax on you. That's certainly part of it, but it is also about the city being able to control where and when AT&T places fiber in city right of ways and whether or not the city can use dark fiber (as well as whether or not the city is required to turn over conduit and dark fiber to AT&T).
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GOLFnSUN
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Avalon, NJ
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| said by marigolds : whether or not the city can use dark fiber (as well as whether or not the city is required to turn over conduit and dark fiber to AT&T). Dark fiber is generally owned by whoever laid it. And that is almost never the city. It could be an old Bell company, or a railroad, or a 3rd party speculator. And AT&T, or the city, or Verizon, or Comcast would have to lease(owners almost never sell the dark fiber) the dark fiber from the owner. Unless the city felt it could assert some eminent domain rights(but they would have to pay the owner), they have no say in the matter, except for work permits disrupting street traffic.
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marigolds
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Saint Louis, MO
| said by GOLFnSUN :said by marigolds : whether or not the city can use dark fiber (as well as whether or not the city is required to turn over conduit and dark fiber to AT&T). Dark fiber is generally owned by whoever laid it. And that is almost never the city. It could be an old Bell company, or a railroad, or a 3rd party speculator. And AT&T, or the city, or Verizon, or Comcast would have to lease(owners almost never sell the dark fiber) the dark fiber from the owner. Unless the city felt it could assert some eminent domain rights(but they would have to pay the owner), they have no say in the matter, except for work permits disrupting street traffic. That's not true at all in the midwest. Smaller midwest cities often own the vast majority of dark fiber in their boundaries (have to remember that many midwest cities owned their telephone and railroad companies and include their school districts as part of city government). As this is public property, other companies within the city can require access to the dark fiber (for fair compensation).
As well, if the ROW franchisee lays dark fiber, many franchise agreements give the city some level of access to that dark fiber (or even require the franchisee to lay dark fiber for the city) and requires the franchisee to give ownership of the conduit to the city.
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PeterCollins
join:2005-05-23
Geneva, IL | reply to GOLFnSUN
In Geneva's case, we actually own fiber - that we put in ourselves - as well as our electric utility. We are a little unique. |
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RadioDoc
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·AT&T Midwest
| reply to marigolds
"Smaller midwest cities" does not include those around here. Some have their own electric utility and most run their own water, but schools are a separate unit of government and none have their own telephone or railroad.
The bottom line here is money. They don't want to let go of sixty grand a year in antiquated franchise fees. Funny thing is that the money could still be coming in via a statewide agreement. AT&T is ass-backwards about a lot of things but this one isn't it. These suburbs are little fiefdoms and they often are rather sleazy about their money. They've been known to take each other to court over the right to annex farmland, and have no problem suing their own residents who dare to point out illegal acts.
This isn't about AT&T or Lightspeed. It's about what Comcast will do.
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marigolds
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| said by RadioDoc :"Smaller midwest cities" does not include those around here. Some have their own electric utility and most run their own water, but schools are a separate unit of government and none have their own telephone or railroad. Funny, it looks an awful lot to me like Geneva has a community school district.
You should do some research on community railroad. The Chicago area had extensive public railroads in the past (and still does have public railroad in most communities in the form of Metra). I am not talking about existing companies, but rather turn of the century companies that established public-private right of ways under which existing fiber is installed (same way old private railroad ROWs are used to install fiber now as Tkjunkmail referenced).
Water company and electric company rows are used in similar ways, and Geneva owns both of those too.
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cooperaaaron
join:2004-04-10
Joliet, IL
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| And Joliet has a railroad company:
Elgin, Joliet and Eastern Ry. Co., Track miles: 186.5, Locomotives: 58, Freight: 4,440, Miscellaneous: 7, Caboose: 12, Total: 4,517. Joliet, IL. [courtesy of The Pocket List of Railroad Officials, 2nd Quarter 1999]
And Metra service. |
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RadioDoc
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·AT&T Midwest
| reply to marigolds
I'm not going to sit here and argue silly nonsense with you, since it's not the turn of the century. I happen to live in the area, along Metra in fact (BNSF owns the tracks and runs the commuter train under contract, by the way).
Yes, Geneva has its own water and electric. They're raising rates... Not many suburbs are in that boat.
A community unit school district is a unified grade-middle-high school district, not necessarily attached to the municipal government. They are definitely a separate taxing body. Many others around here are separate K-8 and High school districts.
None of it is relevant to this discussion.
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marigolds
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Saint Louis, MO
| reply to ronpin
True, what is relevant is that this particular city does own a lot of dark fiber and AT&T will be putting fiber into the right of ways.
Thus the various articles about dark fiber access that would be in a franchise agreement are important in this specific case. Without such an agreement, there could be significant problems related to the dark fiber of the two entities.
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