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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| reply to pnh102
Re: Idiots
said by pnh102  :First this town wants to impose the costs of deploying a broadband network on its citizens. Now it wants to stop a private company from deploying such a network at no cost to its citizens. What is wrong with these people? quote:
Geneva, Illinois was at the center of a debate over municipal broadband, when AT&T (then SBC) ran an expensive PR campaign to turn public opinion against two local plans to offer fiber and IPTV service (once with taxpayer funds, once without)
Obviously, the local gov't/voters (or at least a portion of them) disagree with that assumption. | |
L Supreme
Premium
join:2004-06-05
Lowell, MA | That video was priceless. "What can you do with 20mbs?its like a race car with no track" lol. Their tune sure changed. | |
Talis
join:2001-06-21
Houston, TX
| That's what is most galling to me - and maybe the government of Geneva - about this whole story. AT&T goes out of their way to denigrate their fiber project then several years later come in and install the very same fiber they said was totally unnecessary. Talk about two-faced. This makes me wonder why anyone believes a thing AT&T says.
Personally I think the city of Geneva should use the same tactics AT&T did and accuse them of providing porn to the neighborhood. I wonder how long it would be before AT&T sued.
I have no respect for corporations that treat people with such contempt and disregard. | |
PeterCollins
join:2005-05-23
Geneva, IL
3 edits | To lend to your point, here's a little recent history firsthand.
Voice Mail Message from David Strahl of AT&T to Mayor Kevin Burns & All Geneva City Council members
Friday, April 14, 2006
11:30 a.m. CST
Mayor Burns this is Dave Strahl with AT&T.
I’m calling with regard to the proposed moratorium on the build out of our project Light Speed in the City of Geneva. As taxpayers and property owners in the City of Geneva we obviously think that is an ill-advised strategy we would much prefer to be able to sit down with city staff and address whatever issues or concerns they may have with regard to that project.
As you probably know, Project Light Speed offers a video alternative to Comcast cable as well as provides residents with much higher speed DSL, high-speed internet access. I think both of those are things the community was crying out for during the TriCity broadband referenda. We don’t think that a moratorium advances the issue for our company or your residents. In fact, we’ve had to resort to law suits in three communities in the Chicago area who have imposed that moratorium. That’s with regret and we do believe that we can work out whatever issues or concerns whatever issues the city may have simply by sitting down and discussing those alternatives.
That would be my hope…that at your board meeting on Monday that you would direct staff to set a meeting and see if there is a way to work around any issues or concerns the City may have and allow us to get on with the work of providing your residents with some exciting new services.
I can be reached at 847.2XX.XXXX. Give me a call if you have any questions. Thanks a lot and have a great Easter. Bye Bye.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Collins [mailto:pcollins@geneva.il.us]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 4:55 PM
Dear Mayor Burns:
First off, I think it’s important to note that Geneva is anything but “anti-competition.” We welcome AT&T’s proposed investment in our community to provide another option for our citizens. It’s in this same mode that we are also exploring bringing wireless internet providers to Geneva as well.
Our issues with AT&T’s Project Lightspeed, however, stem from trying to do what is proper for our citizens and legal in our Rights of Way. AT&T appears to have real issues with guaranteeing equal services for all of Geneva – a point of contention not present in our existing franchise agreement with Comcast.
In addition, Illinois has a “Level Playing Field Statute [65 ILCS 5/11-42-11(e)], Subsections (4) and (5) which state, with emphasis added:
(4) ... Except as provided in paragraph (5) of this subsection (e), no such
additional cable television franchise shall be granted under terms or conditions more favorable or less burdensome to the applicant than those required under the existing cable television franchise, including but not limited to terms and conditions pertaining to the territorial extent of the franchise, system design, technical performance standards, construction schedules, performance bonds, standards for construction and installation of cable television facilities, service to subscribers, public educational and governmental access channels and programming, production assistance, liability and indemnification, and franchise fees.
Allowing AT&T to enter our video market without regard to the language above could be construed as allowing AT&T to have an advantage over the existing franchise holder, Comcast, and could be grounds for Comcast to stop adhering to the requirements of our existing franchise with them.
Another point to pay close attention to is the number of potential cabinets we could end up with in our r.o.w. Using AT&T’s estimates, and trying to be as generous as possible, each new Lightspeed box will serve approximately 300 - 400 customers. Using 8,800 as an approximate count of residential customers, Geneva could see roughly 22 to 29 of these pads/network ops boxes in our R.O.W. just for serving homes in Geneva. The approximate size of each one of these boxes is 63"H X 44"W X 20"D sitting on a 90"L X 68"W X 5"D concrete slab. This number excludes, of course, any additional boxes need to serve business or industrial customers.
In addition, because of last year’s ruling by the FCC that new fiber builds do not have to be shared, any new provider that might come to Geneva could quite possibly have to build their own cabinets in similar numbers, should AT&T decide not to share facilities with that new provider. (An unfortunate aside of all this is that as while we get fiber further out into the neighborhoods, I fear we will begin to lose what little semblance of competition we have in the EarthLink/Covad dsl market. New fiber means less copper for those providers to use.)
Per your request, I've attempted to address some of the claims of AT&T we've heard about recently.
I've heard that AT&T representatives have attempted to call you and the Aldermen, and that the gist of the message is something along the line of, "If you pass the moratorium on Monday, we'll sue Geneva."
The voice mail I heard suggested City staff would/had not met with AT&T. This is plainly false.
AT&T did come in, sat down with us, and explained their position. That meeting took place on March 9th at 1:30 p.m. at Geneva Public Works. In attendance representing the City were Mary McKittrick, Travis Parish, Jennifer Hilkemann, Dan Dinges, Chris Bong, Dave Morris, & myself. Representing AT&T were Dave Strahl, Tony Bily, Pam Summers & Bruce Brown.
AT&T also just did the same at the DuPage Mayor's & Manager's Conference on April 7th in Oak Brook. Again, among the AT&T representatives was Dave Strahl.
AT&T's position has remained the same. They feel they are not subject to local franchising because of the delivery mechanism of their services (IP) while strangely, on the federal level, they continue to push for national franchising regulations.
AT&T has only today returned to us with their model Memorandum of Understanding – their idea of an alternate agreement to a local franchise - as they suggested the would at the March 9, 2006 meeting at Public Works. This MoU is nowhere close to meeting the same standards our cable franchise does.
Most important to Geneva though is the dismissal order came last week from the courts in California regarding an SBC lawsuit against Walnut Creek, CA for actions similar to those of Geneva.
Adding more flames to the fire are AT&T’s past actions as SBC & Ameritech. I find it rather amusing that Mr. Strahl tries to sell the merits of their upgrades while invoking the TriCity Broadband referenda – an issue according to the Daily Herald they spent over $205,000 to defeat.
»www.dailyherald.com/kane/main_st···=3838567
Broadband quest cost $300,000
By Garrett Ordower Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Wednesday, February 02, 2005
To Tri-Cities residents, the onslaught of advertising aimed at defeating last fall's municipal broadband referendum request might have seemed novel: An entire campaign dreamed up to quash a plan that itself was little more than a dream.
But to the coalition of consultants, pollsters, ad gurus and public affairs veterans employed by SBC and Comcast to create the $301,065 campaign, it was old hat.
“….All told, SBC spent $208,324 and Comcast went through $92,440 successfully fighting the municipal broadband referendum request, according to campaign disclosures filed Monday. Voters defeated the question by 60 percent to 40 percent in St. Charles and Geneva, and 53 percent to 47 percent in Batavia.”
During that same pre-election period, SBC (now AT&T) executives also stood before the Batavia City Council and added some confusing statements before their Mayor and Council. On July 6, 2004, SBC’s Midwest Network Services President, Kirk Brannock told citizens of Batavia that that fiber to the home technology suggested by TriCity staff “is not proven”, that they “can not prove it in economically,” and asked, “What are you going to do with 20 megabits?” “The technology that’s being touted….is not there yet.” “We’re going to be offering 3 meg [down in a new development] and most users won’t use that.” (See video at »www.tricitybroadband.com/videos/unproven.wmv . For the record, Mr. Strahl was also in attendance.)
Except SBC then and AT&T now doesn’t really believe that. In fact, Project Lightspeed was announced in June 2004 (»www.convergedigest.com/Bandwidth···ID=12617 ), a full month before Brannock’s statements to the Batavia City Council. At that point, Mr. Brannock knew (or should have known as SBC upper management) SBC’s (now AT&T’s offering) would require at least 25 megabits to each customer.
Even more discouraging is SBC’s announcement last December that they would begin building fiber to the home in a new subdivision in Sugar Grove, roughly 10 miles as the crow flies from Geneva. Remember, according to Mr. Brannock fiber to the home is an unproven technology.
Sugar Grove subdivision taps into speed of light By Leslie Hague Daily Herald Staff Writer Posted Monday, December 05, 2005
When new residents start moving into the Settlers Ridge subdivision in Sugar Grove, they'll have plenty of ways to keep in touch with their old neighbors.
Each of the 2,678 homes in the subdivision south of Route 56 and east of the Chelsea Meadows and Mallard Point subdivisions will be wired with fiber-optic cable for high-speed Internet, phone and cable service.
It reflects the newest step forward for communications technology, said Virgil Pund, vice president and general manager of AT&T Illinois, formerly SBC.
"As we build out, fiber to the home will become standard," Pund said.
Fiber-optic networks allow for faster Internet use, and all household communications go through the same line. Fiber optics will also be able to handle new technology as it progresses, like VoIP phone service, or interconnected electronics, such as calling your house from your cell phone to record a show on TV, Pund said.
The fiber optics in the Settlers Ridge subdivision will offer a speed of 3 to 6 megabits per second and Dish network for television, Pund said.
Many files will download in a matter of seconds through those lines, AT&T spokeswoman Blair Klein said.
DSL lines carry about 1.5 megabits per second, and cable lines carry about 3 megabits per second.
AT&T is working on laying fiber optics to three different subdivisions in the state now, and plans more in the future, Pund said.
"It's a huge value add," said Frank Scaramuzza, chief information officer for Kimball Hill Homes, which is building the subdivision. "It's a pretty big selling point."
Because the fiber is going in as the homes are built, it won't add much to the home price, he said.
"If there's any increase in price, I'd say it would be in the hundreds, not thousands, if even that," he said.
Settlers Ridge will likely be their first subdivision selling houses with fiber optics, he said.
With the cost of laying fiber optics decreasing every year, providing it to entire subdivisions is more plausible, and as new services come along, more and more require a higher bandwidth, Pund said.
AT&T is working with a handful of subdivisions to install the fiber optics to the home technology, Pund said. Settlers Ridge is one of the first because of the company's relationship with Kimball Hill, he said.
Residents won't have to sign up for all the services offered, or even use the fiber optics access from AT&T, but will be encouraged to, Pund said.
"But what we're finding is that most households are becoming more dependent on broadband access," he said. "Everything from having kids in school to managing the household."
Voters in Batavia, Geneva and St. Charles twice voted against - in March
2003 and November 2004 - looking into creating a municipal broadband system that would provide high-speed Internet, phone and cable service to the towns' residents.
Both SBC and Comcast lobbied hard against that proposal during both elections.
>www.dailyherald.com/news/kanesto...d=128912
Where does all this leave us? I would suggest extreme caution with all proceedings concerning the future of Geneva’s Rights of Way. Until agreements can be ironed out that protect the rights of the citizens and the city, while also emcompassing the fair playing field laws we are required to uphold in Illinois, I would urge the Council to allow for time via this moratorium to clarify points of contention before any construction is allowed.
Regards,
Peter I. Collins
Information Technologies Manager
City of Geneva, Illinois
22 South First Street
Geneva, IL 60134
pcollins@geneva.il.us
Phone: 630.232.1743 | |
moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| What you have posted here is first hand accounts of either the complete ignorance or sheer stupidity of ATT.
"What are you going to do with 20Mbits" means "why offer it when we don't have to."
Twenty three years of networking experience? Sounds like 23 years of penny-pinching to me.
Verizon is making it work. ATT doesn't want to make it work and refuses to let anyone else try.
Mr. Collins, it is time to tell ATT to take a hike.  | |
gao16
join:2006-04-18
Algonquin, IL
| reply to PeterCollins
Kirk Brannock's statements, including the “What are you going to do with 20 megabits?” are examples of either corporate stupidity or corporate greed.
If AT&T executives truly believed that people would not want or need higher speeds than those offered at the time they are a bunch of morons. If they used those statements to dissuade voters from using tax money to pay for that infrastructure until they were ready to offer it, that's pure greed. I don't know which is worse. | |
djdanska
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Glen Ellyn, IL
clubs: | reply to PeterCollins
Thanks for posting this. It's nice to hear from the other side. (And welcome to dslreports!)
--
He who would sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security. | |
Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL
| reply to gao16
Mr. Brannock used those statements as part of a massive FUD campaign against the citizen group, Fiber For Our Future, who proposed (and wrote the question on the ballot in the case of Batavia and St. Charles) the broadband referendum in November 2004. The grassroots citizen organization proposed a muni utility to bring FTTH and FTTB in Geneva, Batavia and St. Charles, IL. It was not a requirement for residents to take service, it would've been a choice to take service (voice, video, or data services).
The citizen's group met with several private financing groups to fund the utility and built a financial model. But muni revenue bonds were also an option. The referendum question prohibited "tax-backed financing" by the cities. In other words, the utility could not be funded by general obligation bonds. The Nov. 2004 referendum was only advisory, and had it passed, was to be used by the cities to begin exploring the possibility of creating a broadband utility without tax-backed financing. If no way could be found to create such a utility, or no vehicle of financing was available, then the utility would not have been created.
--
It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL
1 edit | reply to PeterCollins
One thing I wanted to add about the citizen-driven referendum in Nov. 2004....A few newspapers serving the Tri-Cities inaccurately reported the broadband referendum was "defeated" by a vote of 55%-45% in St. Charles. As a HUGE point of clarification...the broadband referendum vote WAS NEVER CERTIFIED by the Mayor or City Atty. for St. Charles because of ballot errors made by the Kane County Clerk's office.
The broadband question was to be voted on by those residents living within city limits of St. Charles. The problem was that voters outside the city limits of St. Charles also received the broadband question in 17 precincts. Over 4,100 votes were known to have been cast by those living outside of the city limits. A true outcome will never be known for the broadband question in St. Charles. One cannot GUESS about an outcome, or theorize how things might've gone had the ballots been correct. The fact remains ineligible voters were allowed to vote on the question (more than double the difference between yes and no votes originally tallied).
This ballot error also occured in a precinct in Batavia.
--
It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
T1 Rocky
join:2002-11-15
Dallas, TX
 ·Time Warner Cable
| reply to PeterCollins
Way to go Peter! It's nice to see someone finally stand up against them and you know your in the right. Your one of the few cities establishing the precedents that will dictate what happens nationwide.
AT&T definately does not have the consumers interest in mind and unfortunately their pockets are deep enough to make politicians look the other way, AGAIN AND AGAIN in every state in the US. | |
Odie97
join:2006-04-19
Oak Creek, WI
| While the whole story around the Tri-City Broadband debacle is now just an amusing "what not to do" discussion it could have gone much better it it were not lead by amateurs and inexperienced people who played right into the ILEC's hands and trap. And you are still playing right into their hands ...
The statement of ... AT&T definitely does not have the consumers interest in mind and unfortunately their pockets are deep enough to make politicians look the other way, AGAIN AND AGAIN in every state ... is exactly right! AT&T's business and mission as a publicly traded entity is to strive to establish shareholder value ... this is their primary mission and objective ... welcome to America.
I continue to be perplexed as to why people and communities keep playing their (the ILECs) game. The only way that anything positive is going to happen is if communities start working around and through NEW AND DIFFERENT models and paths that can navigate around the mine field that has been placed "by the ILECS" over many years. The whole Geneva, Batavia, St Charles discussion is nothing more than the same people saying the same thing around a path and strategy that they screwed up through being inexperienced and naive to the game they were playing and with the teams they were playing against. When people (citizen groups with no experience, money or valid strategies) refuse to listen to people who had been through it before ... are really nothing more than certain individuals attempting to build a name for themselves, while really doing nothing of good or value for their community. | |
garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| quote:
AT&T's business and mission as a publicly traded entity is to strive to establish shareholder value ... this is their primary mission and objective ... welcome to America
No, really? I hadn't noticed. HOWEVER (and I suit up in my flameproof suit for this one), all corporations in this country also have other responsibilities. There's no shareholder value without customers. There's no customers without providing attractive services/products. This skewering of local community's interests in the name of the almighty profit motive just goes to show they (and others) have forgotten that.
The Robber Baron age is just about over, so they better think up really quick how they are going to repair their image of being the Deathstar in search of profit only pretty fast. | |
PhoenixDown
-- Wants FIOS
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
clubs:  | reply to PeterCollins
Excellent points! | |
guitarzan
Premium
join:2004-05-04
Skytop, PA
·epix
| reply to garagerock
AT&T spent a boatload of money on those push/pull polls,and also a nice chunk of change on politicians for their back pockets.
This makes me wonder did they run out of money to buy off the local press and squash, those news reports that make them look as if they're a bunch of hypocritical nitwits.?
--
Bass....the glue of rhythm and harmony...the heartbeat of the band.! Shaking the earth with deep,sonorous vibrations.The dark ominous thunder of an approching storm. | |
Odie97
join:2006-04-19
Oak Creek, WI
| reply to garagerock
NOTE: "primary" mission ... they do all sorts of "other" things (and should be doing a whoile lot more, besides sponsoring Monday Night Football) ... and will always claim they are good corporate citizens. But at the end of the day it is all about the money ... all about the profit ... all about executive mgt. bonus's ... and all about the "market" (Wall Street).
Have our corporate conglomerates (especially the ILEC's)lost sight of "doing good by being good" ... you bet your sweet bippy! Don't get me wrong, I hate them SOB's as much as anyone ... we simply need to stop playing into their hands.
The customer is unfortunately speaking loudly and way too many of us continue to buy their services and drink their brew.
Imagine what would (could) happen if there was a "universal cancellation day" and consumers across America spoke loudly and simply cancelled their service ... you would see them jump if they lost 10 million customers over the course of 2-3 days ... shareholder value would plummet and they would start paying attention. This sill never happen in our lifetime but it sure would be cool to see happen.
We need to change the rules ... not legal or legislative rules ... just simply start acting upon some alternative business models that would stick it to them ... there are several solid and interesting "alternative" models and strategies out there right now, unfortunately everyone is still running around trying to create or re-create strategies that have already been seeded and doing nothing more than creating conflicting plays and not working in effective collaborations. | |
Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL
| Odie97,
No one was being nieve here in the Tri-Cities about our referendums and what SBC and Comcast was going to do to us. In fact, many other communities, like our friends in Lafayette, LA benefitted from learning about what we did right, wrong, and what they could expect. I am not saying we were the first munis to try to deploy FTTH, but we were certainly a large enough footprint in a big enough market that a giant battle was waged on us...and we documented it all. Find a bigger one before us...and one our citizen group has not helped educate.
It is because of our very documented battles that others are able to learn from US. Other munis can look at our web site and see what such a battle might cost, what literature from incumbents will look like, etc.... I am proud of our citizens who continue to participate in Fiber For Our Future. We continue to make a difference in IL and elsewhere in the country. Thank you!
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
Odie97
join:2006-04-19
Oak Creek, WI
| I'm sorry Octopussy2 ... but the gig is up,
There were several people and organizations before you that offered assistance and advice, albeit for a fee, for this is how professionals in this business make a living, and you said just volunteer and give us your knowledge and expertise for free, while some started to do this (foolishly) and quickly found that all of what was offered was being disregarded, (plagiarized) not only by the community leaders but most certainly by the Fiber for our Future assembly.
You were a large enough market with a large enough footprint and you elected to do battle with a force that you had absolutely no real life experience in going against and you elected to tell all that could have helped, to go away, unless they volunteered and gave for free for you to take credit for ... and that you were smarter the all because you lived in the community and had "inside" connections.
I call this naive and can add some other adjectives that I shall refrain from stating. In any event ... now you claim to be experts after having been through simply one project ... a project that you failed to boot, due to blind stupidity and lack of any real experience ... and now these are heralded as lessons learned ... well documented to cover you own foolish tails in my opinion. Now people like you sit on the State of Illinois broadband task force ... my God help Illinois for they are being lead by the blind and foolish.
You guys had an opportunity to do something really good and you blew it! | |
Octopussy2
Premium
join:2003-03-30
Batavia, IL | I really have no clue what you are talking about. Please elaborate.
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It's muni-licious! »www.tricitybroadband.com | |
Odie97
join:2006-04-19
Oak Creek, WI
| Whenever anybody elaborates around the tricitybroadband debacle or fiber-for-our-future assembly and their 15 minutes in the spotlight it simply becomes more bulletin board banter, something new to post on a web site ... it all goes nowhere and serves no purpose, other than to inflate some inexperienced ego's.
It would be really great to see the whole tricitybroadband and fiber-for-our-future "one hit wonder parade" to just go away. (oh yea, and that "one hit" was a foul ball ... matter of fact, you hit two foul balls and the last pitch was a called third strike ... your out!
This whole discussion is just like the GIO list group ... a bunch of meaningless voices ... lots of talk ... unable to put forth anything or take any action, with no money, no direction and no meaning. Just of bunch of chatter from people who can't do anything.
No need to elaborate further ... it is all well documented !
| |
garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| said by Odie97 :Whenever anybody elaborates around the tricitybroadband debacle or fiber-for-our-future assembly and their 15 minutes in the spotlight it simply becomes more bulletin board banter, something new to post on a web site ... it all goes nowhere and serves no purpose, other than to inflate some inexperienced ego's. It would be really great to see the whole tricitybroadband and fiber-for-our-future "one hit wonder parade" to just go away. (oh yea, and that "one hit" was a foul ball ... matter of fact, you hit two foul balls and the last pitch was a called third strike ... your out! This whole discussion is just like the GIO list group ... a bunch of meaningless voices ... lots of talk ... unable to put forth anything or take any action, with no money, no direction and no meaning. Just of bunch of chatter from people who can't do anything. No need to elaborate further ... it is all well documented ! curious post...do you take your own advice? so you're just part of the meaningless banter? | |
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