cybersank
join:2006-01-15
Somerville, MA
| Deploying over 90 squared km: Wimax or not?
I'm doing some research on how can I implement this large wireless network using today's technologies. This is a very poor area with no telephone lines, and geographically has lots of up and downs with mountains and forests. I mapped about 60 different points apart that I'll need to feed and some of them have NLOS.
I have looked over the solutions from Redline and proxim 802.16 Wimax, is anyone here using them? At the same time that I read the specs on them, and that it will do 80km with NLOS, I also read a lot about the hype that has become.
What are the experiences using 900MHz? Is it still early?
I read that Tropos was used in New Orleans and that it was well acceptable, should I think on repeating or dream that a wimax cell may be solution?
Thanks, |
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Nowireneeded
join:2004-02-11
Montoursville, PA | Where will you be deploying? And do you have a license? |
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cybersank
join:2006-01-15
Somerville, MA | reply to cybersank
I think the license question will have to come after I have the project ready, right now I'm still studying how to deploy it. This area is in South America.
Thanks, |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| said by cybersank  :This area is in South America. Sincerely, 2.4Ghz/5.8Ghz "WiFi-derived" WISP technology will be more appropriate in your situation.
You do not to spend more than ~$9000 for the wireless infrastructure to provide both voice and data service to ~90 sq km of hilly country side that you describe.
Some questions:
1. How to get internet bandwidth into that remote area at reasonable cost? VSAT? T1/E1? DSL from nearest town?
2. How much can you charge them $5 or $15 or $25 per month? How will you collect monthly payments?
3. Who will pay for the $99 CPE and optional $39 VoIP gear? You or customers? |
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cybersank
join:2006-01-15
Somerville, MA
| Thanks for repplying!
said by lutful :said by cybersank :Some questions: 1. How to get internet bandwidth into that remote area at reasonable cost? VSAT? T1/E1? DSL from nearest town? That part is ready and in a center location. We built a tower to get the equipment in, it works at 1.5GHz and provides us with two E1's. We'll use the same tower to provide the links to the outer locations. 2. How much can you charge them $5 or $15 or $25 per month? How will you collect monthly payments? This will be all private. 3. Who will pay for the $99 CPE and optional $39 VoIP gear? You or customers? Again it's a private network, the need for voip is only to inter-communicate between these locations. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
1 edit | said by cybersank :This is a very poor area with no telephone lines I suggested affordable WiFi-derived solution based on that statement ...
said by cybersank :We built a tower to get the equipment in, it works at 1.5GHz and provides us with two E1's. But may be money is not much of an issue here? 
said by cybersank :We'll use the same tower to provide the links to the outer locations. Any co-ordinates you can share of the tower and a few of the NLOS sites? You may have some hills in between. |
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cybersank
join:2006-01-15
Somerville, MA
| Radialink,
Will do that as soon as I can, I have the coordinates from GPS on my laptop at home.
It's a poor area but the company that is investing isn't
Of course the cheaper, the better.
Thanks, |
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phoneboy2
@shawcable.net
| reply to cybersank
Just forget about all the hype surrounding WiMax distance claims. IMHO certain proponents of WiMax such as Intel did everyone a disservice by spewing all that BS. All they created was more skepticism and distrust.
The truth is that the best you can hope for in a NLOS indoor CPE application is about 5km with WiMax not 30. Those are real world test results. Not numbers on a piece of paper. Also, forget about the claims of 70mb/s. The real world testing is showing T1 or less speeds. 500kb/s is the conservative figure being tossed around.
I have finally found an excellent source of information that seems to be extremely balanced and accurate. I have been hearing good things about wikipedia. I am now one of their greatest fans based on this excellent technical article about WiMax. Bravo wikipedia!!!
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimax |
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cybersank
join:2006-01-15
Somerville, MA | Thanks phoneboy2,
Looking at prices for 802.16 equipment I'll definitely will go with wi-fi. I think for that type of range, 900 will do the same. |
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phoneboy2
@shawcable.net
| reply to cybersank
Nothing wrong with 900Mhz (assuming they keep making the stuff) and it sure get's through trees in spring, and through walls a lot better than anything 1.8+Ghz.
The WiMAX stuff sure has nice new features that I would think are quite important for a service provider. I'll bet the equipment comes down quite a bit in cost within about a year.
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Nowireneeded
join:2004-02-11
Montoursville, PA
| reply to phoneboy2
phoneboy2 said "The truth is that the best you can hope for in a NLOS indoor CPE application is about 5km with WiMax not 30. Those are real world test results."
I'll take it with the exepectations of mobility in 2007.
phoneboy2 said "The real world testing is showing T1 or less speeds. 500kb/s is the conservative figure being tossed around."
Sector capacity per 5 Mhz is 14-18 meg's depending on the manufacturer. So in a 20 Mhz sector 70 meg's (some systems are full duplex) of throughput can be achieved. Not even close to throughput tests of 802.11b wifi based gear at 7 meg's, Canopy or Trango at 10, or others in the same channel space. That's right....for those doing the math.... in the same channel space Wimax can give you 10 X's the performance of a wifi based system. Wimax slams wifi in efficiency...no comparison at all and if you throw in voip it's even worse. If you don't want to compare indoor self install use the Wimax eave mount units and you'll close to double your cell size and speed per cpe.
Cybersank, Comparing a voip/data network on 900 Mhz vs a Licensed Wimax play is like comparing apples and oranges. If you have the money, can get the spectrum, and are connecting 1,000's of users over a large area, Wimax will be the way to go. Period. |
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phoneboy2
@shawcable.net
| reply to cybersank
Ho Hum,
I don't know why I bother.
Nowireneeded,
You are still reading off of the theoretical stuff. Assuming you don't believe the Wikipedia article, how about right from Bell Sympatico unplugged which, arguable according to the wikipedia article, is the largest rollout of any pre-WiMAX to date. Assuming we can agree that the NextNet equipment they are using is very similar to true 802.16-2004, Bell specifically states on their website that you need to be within about 5km of a tower to get adequate signal with their indoor CPE. They aren't promising anything more that "up to 3mb/s". I think their top tier only goes to 2. You can argue that is just a service level but I think it's just them being realistic about what they can deliver. I would guess even their promises are a bit optimistic but at least it is more realistic than all the spew from Intel and manufacturers like NextNet.
It's stated right here. 4th bullet point down.
»https://www.highspeedunplugged.sympatico···rks.aspx |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| reply to cybersank
Straight from the horse's mouth... 
"In a typical cell radius deployment of three to 10 kilometers, WiMAX Forum Certified systems can be expected to deliver capacity of up to 40 Mbps per channel"
»www.wimaxforum.org/technology/faq/
A marketing genius must have written three to 10 rather than 3 to 10 kilometers. |
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Nowireneeded
join:2004-02-11
Montoursville, PA
| reply to phoneboy2
Ho hum back at you. Nextnet gear is not fast to begin with.......so "no" it is not a good comparison to Wimax speeds. I thought this thread was about a Wimax comparison and not what Nextnet is doing with their 1st generation gear? I don't know why I bother either.... |
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Nowireneeded
join:2004-02-11
Montoursville, PA
| reply to lutful
"In a typical cell radius deployment of three to 10 kilometers, WiMAX Forum Certified systems can be expected to deliver capacity of up to 40 Mbps per channel"
I agree. Depending on the frequency (700 Mhz and 1.5 Mhz will both be profiles shortly), antenna systems, and terrain 3-10 will be acheivable? It won't ever happen in 5.8 Ghz...is that your beef? |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| said by Nowireneeded :It won't ever happen in 5.8 Ghz... Shh... there are 5.8Ghz WiMax systems coming soon.
Seriously, thousands of 5Ghz OFDM PtMP setups world-wide already do 3km-10km LOS and partial NLOS using WiFi chipset and custom WISP firmware.
There are such 5.8Ghz "WiFi-derived" WISP systems from Alvarion, Proxim, Cisco, Nortel, Smartbridges, etc. |
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phoneboy2
@shawcable.net | reply to cybersank
Ok cool,
I guess Bell Sympatico is just wasting millions on an inferior technology. The Wikipedia article must be completely wrong. I should just listen to you guys and read the gruel that Intel is feeding everyone. |
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| reply to cybersank
Radialink 5.8Ghz WiMax has been here since January. Also nowireneeded was talking about indoor CPE at 5.8 which is going to be challenging if not impossible for any great distance.
Phoneboy wikipedia can be about as accurate as anything else which is self-posted.
The Nextnet stuff is not similiar to 802.16-2004 so using it as a comparative basis doesn't make sense. I couldn't even find a reference to Wimax on the NextNet website. Instead look at Redline, Wilan and Aperto for a real idea of Wimax capabilities.
The next "standard" is for mobile WiMax (ie 802.16e) which is where the lower speeds come in.
While it wouldn't be the first time a large "experienced" company picked an inferior technology (AT&Ts Project Angel for anyone) as far as indoor NLOS the NextNet system provided it when they were in the selection process.
I do feel the marketing claims of WiMax have been exagerated.
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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aeronet
join:2002-04-05
San Juan, PR | January ? what gear ? where is it ?
Gino |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| reply to phoneboy2
said by phoneboy2 :
I guess Bell Sympatico is just wasting millions on an inferior technology. Telcos prefer self-install solutions that can be shipped to customers in a box even if it does not perform as well.
FYI, Sympatico Mobile and Rogers Portable are both repackaged iFido service that failed to live up to the NLOS hype during field trials at Cumberland near Ottawa back in 2004. Almost everyone beyond 2-3km was told they need professionally installed outdoor CPE at extra cost and eventually Fido stopped selling self-install CPEs.
This was a common complaint in iFido forum back in 2003/4.
"I used to have 4/5 bars in my room (next to the window)... but today, only 1.5/5 bars... what's going on with iFido?"
Since the NextNet modems are the same and the 2.5Ghz licensed frequency is the same, it is reasonable to expect NLOS properties to be the same despite the massive marketing campaign.
However, they are planning to install NexNet basestations in almost all the Rogers/Bell cellular towers to ensure that wherever people get 3/4 bars on cell phone, they should get at least 1Mbps NexNet service. |
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