lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Summary of FCC requirements WISP forum members who sincerely want to use FCC/IC certified systems are encourgaed to participate in this new thread with on-topic contributions. The other thread seem to have become too contentious.
AFAIK, relaxed rules apply only for home-built systems
Subpart A - General - §15.23 Home-built devices.
(a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not marketed, are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of five or less for personal use.
So, I posted this back in Feb/06 and then contacted several labs in search of one who will certify our do-it-yourself systems at low cost.
»FCC certification labs?
This is the summary of what I was told so far:
1. FCC ID label requirements are mandatory for all commercial radios except for systems that are so small that placing or engraving a label is physically impossible.
2. An FCC certified radio module can be placed inside a fully shielded metal enclosure as long as vendor places approved FCC ID label on the outside.
3. If an FCC certified radio module is placed in an enclosure that is not fully shielded vendor needs to get a Class I permissive change.
4. FCC certified radio inside custom antenna enclosure may require Class II Permissive Changes plus vendor-specific FCC label.
5. FCC certified radio with any amplifier require new FCC certification plus vendor-specific FCC label. | |
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 robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements Let's say I want todesign, build and market a connectorized radio which uses the SR9. How many antennas would I need to get it certified with so it would be useful to WISPs and they would have good choices? Any idea on how much it would cost to do this? | |
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 | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | Re: Summary of FCC requirements Robbin, basic certification costs are quite low if you use same lab who certified the miniPCI card - for example Metlabs for Ubiquiti.
IMHO, it is best to use highest gain antenna of a certain type (such as panel antenna) for certification tests and clearly specify that all lower gain antenna of same type is approved by default. The antenna brand does not matter. | |
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| | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: Summary of FCC requirements I don't know what quite low is. $500, 1000, 5000 -- any basic guess? | |
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| | | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | Re: Summary of FCC requirements I have heard that some labs charge a bit less than $5K, but not much less.  | |
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slipstream1
Premium
join:2005-11-15
Jacksonville, TX | $5000.00 is not what I would classify as quite low. That seems to be quite high to me. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements said by slipstream1  :$5000.00 is not what I would classify as quite low. That seems to be quite high to me. In actuality, that IS low.
Figure that the cert lab assigns a single engineer to evaluate your device...and that takes 40 hours. At the rate of $75 per hour (random minimum realistic rate...most probably 2X-3X that) they will have $3,000 in the process...add a glitch or two and that takes care of the other $2,000.
Lutful's comment about using the same cert lab is correct...if they know the device they can use their previous knowledge to shorten the certification time. Otherwise, it is start from Square One.
Helpful hint: In the "real world" of business, a $1,000 to a business is just like a $1 to a regular person.
The typical WISP does not operate in the "real world" of business...as much as they would like to think that they do.
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| | mrbueno
join:2002-08-03
US
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements Sorry to go off topic. but...
JG: I've spoken to you before and had a great time talking to you. You are insightful and a pleasure to speak to. However, your post makes you sound like one of the bankers in the Capital One Small Business commercials where they scrape a small business man off their shoe and dump him in the trash. I only bring this up because of the respect I have developed for you.
Many businesses have tens of thousands of customers and spend millions a month. However that puts them no more in the "real world" of business than someone who took the initiative to get creative with some hardware on a budget to bring high speed services to an area.
Business exists to create income opportunity for people. At the end of the day $1000 spent on the business could potentially be $1000 taken from you or your family. I am sure quite a few people see it this way.
I do get where you are coming from, but it sounds a bit harsh. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements said by mrbueno :I do get where you are coming from, but it sounds a bit harsh. I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your point of view.
The point of my post is if you are expecting to receive "professional services" then you must expect to pay "professional prices".
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| | | | slipstream1
Premium
join:2005-11-15
Jacksonville, TX
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements I understand that you have to pay professional prices to receive professional services, but $5000.00 is alot of money. Are Deliberant and High Gain radios FCC certified? Or are we just speaking about the guys who brew thier own radios, ie. Mikrotik, StarOS, Ikarus, and Ubiquiti stuff? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements said by slipstream1 :Are Deliberant and High Gain radios FCC certified? Or are we just speaking about the guys who brew thier own radios, ie. Mikrotik, StarOS, Ikarus, and Ubiquiti stuff? The "big question" is this: where does the responsibility for FCC certification lie?
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| | | | | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| said by slipstream1 :Are Deliberant and High Gain radios FCC certified? First, let's add Demarctech and many other "system integrator" type WISP vendors to this list to be fair to these two companies.
Most of the miniPCI cards and a few of the single-board radios are FCC certified by the OEM companies like Ubiquiti, Senao, Compex, Wistron, etc.
The certification labs are telling me that vendors should get their complete "as-sold" radio systems re-certified and place valid FCC ID labels on the outside.
There seems to be very little flexibility for models with amplifiers or integrated panel antennas, but there could be grey areas such as taking PCB out of FCC certified indoor system and putting it in an outdoor enclosure.
said by slipstream1 :guys who brew thier own radios, ie. Mikrotik, StarOS, Ikarus, and Ubiquiti stuff? It seems that FCC (and IC) are somewhat more lenient on knowledgable people putting together an outdoor system for their own use using FCC-certified modules and staying within EIRP rules.
However, if we make more than 5 of the same system, the rules do ask us to get it tested and certified. | |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| US companies selling uncertified "intentional radiators" can face much bigger fines but I was told that FCC is lenient on knowledgable do-it-yourself WISPs on rare complaint cases.
This is an example TCB who has a good FAQ on FCC:
»www.timcoengr.com/FAQ/FAQ_FCC/FAQ.htm | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements The date on the page is 2001...
I did notice several items that are no longer true.
("But I'm telling you it MUST be true...I saw it on the Intermet!!")
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| The TIMCO site is indeed very old. 
I talked to only two labs. Nemko and Metlabs.
Nemko is a global company with an office in Ottawa and their rates are very good in general. »express.nemko.com/
Metlabs (offices in San Jose and Washington) was recommended by Robert (president of Ubiquiti) for radios containing multiple SRx cards. I think only they have the confidential schematics. »www.metlabs.com/ | |
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slipstream1
Premium
join:2005-11-15
Jacksonville, TX | By all means incluse everyone else in that group. Caleb, Hal, and Richard I only use your names because you guys are the only ones that I deal with at this point. No disrepect intended. Does Tranzeo fall into this category? | |
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| robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: Summary of FCC requirements It's easy to check for yourself on the FCC ID search page. Just put the name of the company in the Applicant Name field. Tranzeo radios are FCC certified. | |
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| | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | Re: Summary of FCC requirements Airaya, Trango, Smartbridges are also FCC certified. | |
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40883644
Premium
join:2003-06-05
Parker, CO
| Let me share with you some factual numbers for certifying and putting together a 2.4GHz CPE.
We are currently having our soon to release sub-$100 400mW All-In One CPE certified in Taiwan at this moment which I might add is saving us weeks of possible delays. Keep in mind the MFG is picking up a chunk of the radios FCC certification
$2000.00 Radio FCC Certification to 400mW, Certification Name will be under High-Gain Antennas, extra.
$5000.00 Class II Permissive Change (CPE assembly 41dB EIRP) Certification Name will be under High-Gain Antennas, extra.
$1650.00 IEEE Registration Authority (OUI) MAC addresses will be authorized to High-Gain Antennas plus $1.00 ea. US extra to burn into each radio.
That's $8650.00 Paid upfront before testing begins. This does not include the cost of the full functional test and report, $2500.00
Divide that by your best guess profit margin for an All-In One CPE (400mW radio, CPE housing, Mounting hardware inside and pole, POE injector, Switching Power supply, CAT 5 cable, CD, Quick start guide, Boxing materials, Assembly Labor, Packing and shipping labor.
That will give you an idea how many need to be sold before one cent is profited. I'll give you a clue; it's over 500 and less than 1000.
Now let's all race out and build a FCC Certified sub $100.00 CPE for resale
Not all at once though 
Rich
»www.highgainantennas.com | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: Summary of FCC requirements Yes, $5K-$10K was the range. Due to this thread, I got several more quotes.
Without revealing confidential details, I can share the best numbers so far to get all required FCC and Industry Canada tests completed and certificates issued.
FYI, the many $1760 lines in the quote are for getting each new class of antenna (sector or omni or yagi or grid etc) tested with each new type of miniPCI. The miniPCI is assumed to be already certified with documentation made available to the lab.
The best feature is that as long as the antenna given to the lab is the highest possible gain for legal EIRP, they will get all lower gain antenna of same type approved by default. So "professional" end users (aka WISPs) could select the best antenna for the job without worry.
I also learned that FCC approval works for most of Latin America and some African/Asian countries and that Eurpoean CE label can be put by vendors after in-house testing for compliance. | |
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