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HAMS save the world ... right »
« Motorola working on better BPL tech  
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rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

reply to PDXPLT
Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op.

said by PDXPLT See Profile :

said by rf_engineer See Profile :

BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum.
Well, that's close but not quite true. Licensed services in a portion of spectrum have primary allocations or secondary allocations, but they are rarely exclusive (some of the radio astronomy bands probably being the only ones). Licensed-exempt users under Part 15 are the bottom of the totem pole, but they are explicitly permitted under Part 15 to radiate RF power in certain bands as an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator. This can even lead to some degree of interference, so long as such interference does not lead to the level of "harmful" (that's why those electric drills can remain on the market), and in addition, the license-exempt user must accept harmful interference from any source.
What you're saying is true, but it doesn't have any bearing on my original statement. BPL has no wireless frequency allocations. Maybe this is just a discussion of semantics, but being allowed to intentionally or unintentionally emit radiation does not constitute a frequency allocation. Most people would consider a primary or secondary frequency allocation, a frequency allocation....as the name would suggest. The context of my response was to a poster that implied ham radio and BPL should stay on their own frequencies. BPL has no such frequencies.

I know ARRL lawyers disagree with this portion of the law, and argue in nearly all of their filings with the FCC that the Commission has no authority to authorize Part 15 operation in the first place. But they've been trying for over 25 years to win that point, and haven't done so yet (I suppose that's why the position the ARRL takes in press releases to the public and their membership is a much more reasonable one than this official position they take in the FCC filings. Or maybe they have no idea what their lawyers are doing).
You or someone claimed this here before and I asked for some quote or something to support this, but I haven't seen anything. The ARRL has questioned the FCC's ability to allow BPL under Part 15 as the rules were clearly never written with broadband large geographical emitters in mind, but never their authority to authorize Part 15 devices. That would be just plain stupid, since every piece of electronics gear in the US and even ham radio equipment is allowed to exist under Part 15. The ARRL's public and FCC filing positions are the same -- in every news article they link to PDFs of their filings, and it's available via the FCC ECFS to the general public, so I'm not sure how they could pull off such a ruse as you would suggest. It's foolhardy to think ARRL management would spend money on lawyers not representing core ARRL positions on issues when there's thousands of dues-paying members that read all their filings. Again, please quote something from an ARRL filing that supports your statement, otherwise I call you-know-what

BTW, UTP telephone wring is not perfectly balanced, and radiates some as well. With the rollout of VDSL expecially, there was concern about harmful interference in the HF band. Unlike much of the BPL community, however, the DSL community took up the issue head-on, and did technical analyses and field measurements that ulimately resulted in the ham bands being notched out of the VDSL spectrum. Leaky coax cable systems are also frequently an issue.
Agreed, but UTP wiring and even leaky cable systems are much better off with regards to radiation that BPL can ever be.

Bottom line is that it's too bad that these idiot BPL operators in Virginia decided to try to use PR rather than engineering to deal with the issue, and ended up giving all BPL a bad name. It's too bad that the BPL technology supplier used for most of the BPL trials in the U.S. also didn't care about interference. But if you look at Cincinnati, where Current Technologies has been operating for quite some time, hams are OK, airplanes aren't falling out of the sky, and emergency communications services work just fine. So apparently there is a technical solution to these issues, if the willingness to implement it is there, along with the required engineering expertice.
I agree this can be made to work, although it's somewhat of a false solution. Someone's spectrum is getting trashed when a BPL system is in operation. Notching just moves it away from the squeaky wheel. Manassas isn't the first system to give BPL a bad name, though it's the most recent.


Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net


1 edit
reply to GhostFreeman
Re: Somebody in high places got pissed.

said by GhostFreeman See Profile :

Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down.
That was just one of the things I was thinking about. except for the fact none of the big providers thing BPL is in anyway a viable threat to their business.
--
The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind.


rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA


2 edits
reply to GhostFreeman
said by GhostFreeman See Profile :

Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down.
Why would AT&T even care? This is residential Internet service. AT&T actually played around with BPL two or three years ago in California and pulled out due to business reasons.

Edit: AT&T also funded the Penn State BPL study from two years ago. This was the study that determined BPL could do 1 Gbps under "ideal" conditions.

PDXPLT

join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR

reply to rf_engineer
Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op.

said by rf_engineer See Profile :

BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum.
Well, that's close but not quite true. Licensed services in a portion of spectrum have primary allocations or secondary allocations, but they are rarely exclusive (some of the radio astronomy bands probably being the only ones). Licensed-exempt users under Part 15 are the bottom of the totem pole, but they are explicitly permitted under Part 15 to radiate RF power in certain bands as an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator. This can even lead to some degree of interference, so long as such interference does not lead to the level of "harmful" (that's why those electric drills can remain on the market), and in addition, the license-exempt user must accept harmful interference from any source.

I know ARRL lawyers disagree with this portion of the law, and argue in nearly all of their filings with the FCC that the Commission has no authority to authorize Part 15 operation in the first place. But they've been trying for over 25 years to win that point, and haven't done so yet (I suppose that's why the position the ARRL takes in press releases to the public and their membership is a much more reasonable one than this official position they take in the FCC filings. Or maybe they have no idea what their lawyers are doing).

BTW, UTP telephone wring is not perfectly balanced, and radiates some as well. With the rollout of VDSL expecially, there was concern about harmful interference in the HF band. Unlike much of the BPL community, however, the DSL community took up the issue head-on, and did technical analyses and field measurements that ulimately resulted in the ham bands being notched out of the VDSL spectrum. Leaky coax cable systems are also frequently an issue.

Bottom line is that it's too bad that these idiot BPL operators in Virginia decided to try to use PR rather than engineering to deal with the issue, and ended up giving all BPL a bad name. It's too bad that the BPL technology supplier used for most of the BPL trials in the U.S. also didn't care about interference. But if you look at Cincinnati, where Current Technologies has been operating for quite some time, hams are OK, airplanes aren't falling out of the sky, and emergency communications services work just fine. So apparently there is a technical solution to these issues, if the willingness to implement it is there, along with the required engineering expertice.

GhostFreeman

join:2004-06-04
Rising Fawn, GA
reply to Transmaster
Re: Somebody in high places got pissed.

Dig deep and i'm sure AT&T is involved, like that other market they managed to get shut down.

RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
reply to Transmaster
Overwhelming complaints from everyone operating below 50 MHz, I'd bet. The process takes a long time sometimes.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.


Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus

join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
reply to rf_engineer
What I am wondering is what behind the scenes thing happened to make the FCC finally move to at last enforce the rules on this issue.
--
The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind.


rf_engineer

join:2003-08-04
USA

reply to driscollw80
Re: Sounds like a annoyed HAM op.

said by driscollw80 See Profile :

Bottom line, stay in your spectum. What would happen if Ham screwed up BPL ?
Ironically, nothing. BPL is a FCC Part 15 device that has to accept any interference from any source. This would include CBs or someone's power drill pushing noise spikes back down the power line. BPL has no wireless spectrum to stay in - it's a wired network therefore it has no frequency allocations....just like cable and DSL which deliver broadband just fine without wrecking spectrum.

driscollw80

join:2005-08-15
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to smcallah
Bottom line, stay in your spectum. What would happen if Ham screwed up BPL ?

smcallah

join:2004-08-05
Home

reply to ropeguru
said by ropeguru See Profile :

And to add to that, suppose there is an emergency somewhere other than Manasas, but it is the Amateur Radio people in Manassas that they need to communicate with. Then there wuld be issues.
The amateur radio operators in Manassas will certainly be able to save them!

Super Manassas Amateur Radio operators to the rescue!


ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Bridgeport, WV
clubs:
·VOIPo

reply to David95037
said by David95037 See Profile :

said by zod5000 See Profile :

If there were a big disaster, one would think the power would get knocked out, and the interference would stop, but
Q: If the power goes out in an area, BPL interference will go out as well, so Hams could then provide emergency services, so what is the problem?

A: Amateurs need to maintain equipment and practice needed skills before a disaster occurs. If the equipment is unusable during regular times, what is the motivation even to buy equipment? Another thing to consider is that emergency stations need to be able to communicate out to areas that do have power.

From the BPL FAQ;
»www.qrpis.org/~k3ng/bpl.html#21
And to add to that, suppose there is an emergency somewhere other than Manasas, but it is the Amateur Radio people in Manassas that they need to communicate with. Then there wuld be issues.

These people that cannot see the entire picture need to go educate themselves before before posting garbage.
--
FWD#: 223611
Forums » FCC Acts on BPL PollutionHAMS save the world ... right »
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