RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| reply to zjumper
Re: here we go again
I feel he is being persecuted by the coffee shop due to their calling the cops to hassle him about his using their network without paying for some food/drink. IMO, he was doing nothing wrong with using their UNSECURED network. The CORRECT charge to file against him under the circumstances, IMO, is TRESPASSING (ie: Parking in their Parking Lot without being a customer). To make that stick, they would need to have a "Parking for Customers Only" sign at the entrance to the lot (and possibly in the lot itself). I've seen such signs near train stations to warn commuters to not park there. So long as they do not secure the network, it is open to whoever wants to use it. At a minimum, if using encryption is to complex for their purposes, they should at least stop broadcasting their NetworkID (print it on the receipt or put it on a sign labeled "Network for Customers Only"). So long as they make no attempt to prevent so called "Freeloaders" like this person from using connecting or designating who it is being offered to, they have no cause for complaining about his using their system. I've used the Free Wireless Access at Hiltons even when not checked in but they do it right by requiring you to provide their NetworkID to your Connect Screen and are otherwise not known as an Available Network. |
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Komputerguy
join:2001-03-29
Melbourne, FL
| Unsecure != offering the resource to anyone who wants it with no regard to the owner's wishes.
The owner of the resource determines how his resource can be utilized. Admittedly there may be some circumstances where who can use the resource and how may not be clearly defined but just because it is not secured does not mean there are no intended restrictions. It just means the person who owns it has not implemented strong real-time enforcement for those restrictions. One should not assume anything about such a resource (other than you are probably not authorized to use it) until you have confirmation from the owner or their representives.
Once the guy was served notice to leave, the intended restriction established by the owner was crystal clear. When he came back, he was clearly in the wrong.
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Iridium
Premium
join:2003-04-02
Los Angeles, CA
 ·DSL EXTREME
| said by Komputerguy  :Unsecure != offering the resource to anyone who wants it with no regard to the owner's wishes. The owner of the resource determines how his resource can be utilized. Admittedly there may be some circumstances where who can use the resource and how may not be clearly defined but just because it is not secured does not mean there are no intended restrictions. It just means the person who owns it has not implemented strong real-time enforcement for those restrictions. One should not assume anything about such a resource (other than you are probably not authorized to use it) until you have confirmation from the owner or their representives. Once the guy was served notice to leave, the intended restriction established by the owner was crystal clear. When he came back, he was clearly in the wrong. I am not disputing that he ws wrong, but if you are offering a service intended for customers, you should give reasonable effort to keep it secured. You should be able to leave your wallet on top of your unlocked car with your keys, and expect them to be there 12 hours later, but it isn't going to happen, it is human nature. 2 weeks ago I ws in downtown long beach meeting friends for lunch, and I got lost. I whipped out my laptop and hopped on someones wireless signal, jut to check my email for the specific street. If the person didn't want me on the network, they should have a key. I wasn't doing anything illegal, I just wanted to get online.
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Komputerguy
join:2001-03-29
Melbourne, FL
| You can't assume that if a wireless network is not secured that the owner doesn't care if you are using it or not. It's simply not true. Now, if the owner doesn't want you on it and does not have it secured, they are not being too smart. However, that says nothing about the legality or morality of an unauthorized person using it. Is is illegal to do so? Maybe not. It probably depends on the jurisdiction. And the legality of such things may very well change in the future. It is definitely not honest to do so IMO. Remember just because something is not illegal does not make it an honest or right thing to do.
Using your own analogy, you have basically described yourself as being one of those people who would have taken someone's wallet and keys that they left on the top of their car without a second thought.
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Iridium
Premium
join:2003-04-02
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
| said by Komputerguy :You can't assume that if a wireless network is not secured that the owner doesn't care if you are using it or not. It's simply not true. Now, if the owner doesn't want you on it and does not have it secured, they are not being too smart. However, that says nothing about the legality or morality of an unauthorized person using it. Is is illegal to do so? Maybe not. It probably depends on the jurisdiction. And the legality of such things may very well change in the future. It is definitely not honest to do so IMO. Remember just because something is not illegal does not make it an honest or right thing to do. Using your own analogy, you have basically described yourself as being one of those people who would have taken someone's wallet and keys that they left on the top of their car without a second thought. I understand where you are coming from, but I guess it is all in perception. Some people view an open network as the person is leaving the network open for anyone to access. Maybe it isn't the owners intention to let anyone connect, but there are people out there ( like me) that view it that way.
On the flip-side, there are people who come across open networks, and view them as someones private property. I am assuming this is the way you feel.
But an owner of a network doesn't know which side the person is on, ome people respect open connections and don't connect, and others hop right on, so I guess I seem like the kind of person who would take the keys and wallet (I wouldn't).
So a person who runs a network should realise that either the network will be respected, or abused. If you run a wireless network you do have some responsibility. I know there are no laws yet (at least in California), that you are responsible for whatever goes on with your connection, so you should take reasonable efforts to secure your shit. I agree, you shouldn't have to, but you have to, thats how people are. If you don't want the responsibilities, maybe you shouldn't run a wireless network, just stick to Ethernet. Ignorance on how to set up WEP on your router is no excuse.
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j0nnyb1aze
join:2004-07-22
Hudson, FL | reply to Iridium
Gaining unauthorized access to any network, secured or not, IS indeed illegal. Now if this was a public hot spot, then it would have been legal, but I dont know the specific situation. |
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Komputerguy
join:2001-03-29
Melbourne, FL
| reply to Iridium
The owner's ignorance is no excuse for what? If someone does not secure his wireless network, it is really only himself he is accountable to. He may unknowingly or knowingly exposing himself to risk but that does not excuse the actions of others who are abusing it against the owner's wishes. And the determination on whether it is right to do use the network has absolutely nothing to do with the "view" of those who wish to abuse (or use) the network and everything to do with how the owner wishes it to be used. If you don't have reasonable confidence in knowing how the network is intended to be used, then it is your responsibility to find out before using it.
Don't you see how contradictory your statements seem to be? On one hand you say that people in this world should be honest enough such that someone who has a wireless network shouldn't have to worry about people jumping on his network unauthorized but then you turn around and say that you, yourself don't take a second thought about jumping on someone's wireless network without knowing whether they mind or not.
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What can possibly go wrong? |
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Iridium
Premium
join:2003-04-02
Los Angeles, CA | I'm a hypocrite. |
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smrgol
Premium
join:2002-02-05
Culver City, CA
1 edit | reply to Iridium
Some people also view an encrypted network as open for anyone who can obtain the key to access. Their claim is that the owner should have used stronger encryption if denial of access was really desired.
All the wireless encryption protocols today are basically insecure. The FBI has a road show showing less than 30 seconds to crack a WEP network and a bit more than a minute to crack WAP. To be really secure you have to tunnel over your (presumed open) wireless link.
I have four or five (depending on time of day) access points not belonging to me within range of my wireless adaptor. Three are protected, two are not. I (and the courts in California, at least) view these access points, whether secure or not, as being similar to a garden gate, a telephone junction box, or a gardon hose bib. In other words, if you enter, take, or use without the resource owner's permission, you can be arrested for theft no matter how inconsequential you consider the amount taken or used.
And it doesn't matter whether the owner put a lock on the thing -- it only matters that you used without the owner's permission.
As a computer services professional, I monitor my access point and would not hesitate to call the police if I encountered a theft-of-service situation. The last thing I want is some gamer in a nearby apartment or with a pimped up car computer sucking up all my bandwidth. |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | Exactly. If there's no dispute to what the law says, then it's the law. Ignorance of a law is not a defense, especially when you've been informed of it by the owner repeatedly. It's not like they didn't give this shmoe a chance to knock it off. If it had been the first time, I would've been a little amenable to, "he should have been given a warning first", but that had already been done. He was told, go away, this is the law, and he chose to break it again and again. Well, he shouldn't have been surprised when someone showed up and arrested him. |
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| reply to Komputerguy
said by Komputerguy :Unsecure != offering the resource to anyone who wants it with no regard to the owner's wishes. The owner of the resource determines how his resource can be utilized. Admittedly there may be some circumstances where who can use the resource and how may not be clearly defined but just because it is not secured does not mean there are no intended restrictions. It just means the person who owns it has not implemented strong real-time enforcement for those restrictions. One should not assume anything about such a resource (other than you are probably not authorized to use it) until you have confirmation from the owner or their representives. Once the guy was served notice to leave, the intended restriction established by the owner was crystal clear. When he came back, he was clearly in the wrong. So long as they are broadcasting their NetworkID/SSID, I feel they are allowing ANYONE to use it (IE: It is a PUBLIC not a PRIVATE network since it is an Open but not Encrypted Network). If they did NOT broadcast their SSID, then that is a different case since they have made SOME effort to restrict access. Encryption and/or Non-Broadcast (of the SSID) shows an intent of restricting access. As to his being told to not use it, that only counts if the SSID was not being broadcast (and thus he connected due to knowing it as opposed to being offered access due to the SSID broadcast). |
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Komputerguy
join:2001-03-29
Melbourne, FL | What is more important? How you feel the owner's network should be used or the owner himself?
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What can possibly go wrong? |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | reply to RARPSL
They're not allowing anyone to use it if they come up to anyone and say, "Don't use this". That's how it works. It's not like he wasn't given every opportunity to NOT get arrested. |
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