deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
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| reply to Mospaw
Re: CSS vs. Table design - do you agree or disagree?
I am sick and tired of seeing webdevs bash tables for designs.
They are excellent. They simplify dynamic content backend code SUBSTANCIALLY!
Table based sites render and function correctly in prety much every browser. Try selecting text on most CSS sites to copy/paste. Its a nightmare, you end up selecting everything on the page by draging over 3 words. From time to time they break normal browser functionality.
In the end as a user, i would choose table based sites EVERY TIME. As a dynamic content backend dev i would ALSO choose to work with TABLES for my output. For people who know and arent idealistic zealots, tables are here to stay and the best way to do things. Who cares what people INTENDED. Good intentions are worth nothing in technology, its what works and what DOESNT. |
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rjackson
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| said by deepblackmag  :Table based sites render and function correctly in prety much every browser. Try selecting text on most CSS sites to copy/paste. Its a nightmare, you end up selecting everything on the page by draging over 3 words. From time to time they break normal browser functionality. Can you please provide an example? I develop and use CSS layouts all day long and have never run into this issue. I would certainly like to be aware of it, though. |
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twizlar
I dont think so.
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join:2003-12-24
Brantford, ON
| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :I am sick and tired of seeing webdevs bash tables for designs. They are excellent. They simplify dynamic content backend code SUBSTANCIALLY! Table based sites render and function correctly in prety much every browser. Try selecting text on most CSS sites to copy/paste. Its a nightmare, you end up selecting everything on the page by draging over 3 words. From time to time they break normal browser functionality. In the end as a user, i would choose table based sites EVERY TIME. As a dynamic content backend dev i would ALSO choose to work with TABLES for my output. For people who know and arent idealistic zealots, tables are here to stay and the best way to do things. Who cares what people INTENDED. Good intentions are worth nothing in technology, its what works and what DOESNT. You sure you didn't write the article? Anyways tables are terrible for layout and design. They are bulky, non-fluid and WAY to much code for a complicated design. I've seen some "simple" looking table designs that are 60-70kb of just html coding. I fail to see how tables help you with dynamic code whatsoever, if anything CSS is far more flexible for loading content into it. The absolute best thing about using CSS for design for me is 're usability'. I can use the same 2 lines of code to do my entire 'content' area layout, one for the top, bottom and side and you can do the whole 'layout' with less then 10 lines of html. Ever had to try and fix an error in a table on a webpage with 200 lines of table code? Its not fun. I've used tables lots for displaying data, or for displaying information from a database, but to actually design using them is a pain in the neck and takes way too much time for such a lousy result. The problems you were talking about that you had with CSS were poor coding/placement. Anyone that knows CSS well and knows how to implement it for design does not end up with a site that doesn't function well. The only time CSS will break some browsers is because they AREN'T standard's compliance, hence why there are alot of IE hacks for CSS. Most of the time you can steer clear of these hacks by simply changing the way to do the design.
The ONLY problem I have with CSS (besides I probably need to use it more :P) is the centering issue and its not really CSS's fault, Although I do wish there was an easier way to do it, the ways I've read about do not always work in IE and Mozilla and it seems that the center tag is much more respected.
I'm not quite sure if its valied or not as I use tables and I'm trying to go to divs but this defently sounds fear based.
Centering with CSS isn't all that difficult. Basically you have to create 'buffers' on either side of your layout that stay the same size and keep everything between them in the middle. Center tags are depreciated and should not be used any more.
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Dryvlyne
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Newark, OH | reply to deepblackmag
»www.csszengarden.com
Try and do some of those designs using only tables. 'Nuff said  |
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Mospaw
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| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :I am sick and tired of seeing webdevs bash tables for designs. They are excellent. They simplify dynamic content backend code SUBSTANCIALLY! [...] As a dynamic content backend dev i would ALSO choose to work with TABLES for my output. For people who know and arent idealistic zealots, tables are here to stay and the best way to do things. Who cares what people INTENDED. Good intentions are worth nothing in technology, its what works and what DOESNT. Wow. That's pretty strong. I don't get sick of hearing about how wonderful tables are. Not in the least. I just wonder why developers like to stick to the hard way of doing things. (And we can argue that until the end of time, but I find tables harder than CSS. Nothing more should be read into that. You may find them easier.  )
There is a huge difference between difficulty through not knowing something and something simply being difficult. I found CSS impossible at first. Of course, that was back in the wonderful IE4 and NN4 days where support was, um, random at best. Took me years to really "get it" (but I'm dense, so YMMV). Browser support is now better than ever and getting better. Now CSS is second nature and I have to think about how to do tables for layout.
As someone who does a fair amount of back-end coding, I MUCH prefer CSS. The less HTML code you have to generate, and the more generic you can make the code, the easier your life will be. Not having to worry about which cell something is in, if it's "valign'd" how wide it is -- in the HTML -- is much nicer. Put it in a separate file, CSS.
I wouldn't consider myself an "idealistic zealot" in any way. I've been doing this for a decade now. I'm a seasoned professional who chooses his tools for maximum efficacy. I prefer CSS because of its features and the LACK of limitations. And I wouldn't classify most people as zealots. They're also pros who have preferences and opinions.
As far as I'm concerned, if you want to use tables, and they meet the needs of your designs, go for it. No sense venturing into CSS-P if you don't want to. But just as you accuse CSS proponents of "zealotry", be careful not to peg yourself the same way. After all, there are merits to both ways, and simply ignoring CSS because "it's the cool thing to do", a few people support it rather vehemently, or due to standards is just as silly as jumping into CSS for those reasons.
I still use tables all the time, by the way. Just not for layout. |
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fegul
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united state
| reply to Dryvlyne
said by Dryvlyne :» www.csszengarden.comTry and do some of those designs using only tables. 'Nuff said amen.
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
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| Since this thread was refrenced by a recent discussion i thought i should come back and make sure this wasnt thought of as some positive CSS example.
»Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time |
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jDyno
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Selecting works fine when coded properly. |
Try selecting the press release here. »ericksonbarnett.com/news/ Fancy that. Selects just what you want.
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Gwellin
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| reply to deepblackmag
Honestly, this is not some big issue here, the only 'point' you have mentioned to back yourself up is that the selection doesn't work. Have you got anything worth while to argue your point with?
You're big problem is a fault in the coding of Internet Explorer, nothing to do with CSS, XHTML or anything like that. If it bothers you so much then why don't you just use another browser.
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Mospaw
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1 edit | If it bothers you so much then why don't you just use another browser.
Or turn the CSS off, so that the "pox of the Internet" isn't even on your machines. |
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