dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| First Draft of WISP Infrastructure
Hey guys!
Please take a look at this jpeg and let me know what you think about this first layout draft.
Also, will I need to have a router on each side of my 5.8
GHz bridges in order to move traffic? I'm trying to figure out how to make my remote sites talk to my base station.
shrunk down original image - korym
[text was edited by moderator] |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Wow, looks very nice, dongato. Very well done!
Depending on which units you go with, the 5.8GHz units actually route the traffic for you so you shouldn't need a router at each remote location
--
Please consider donating to the Victims' Relief Fund |
|
newisp$
join:2001-06-08
Orleans, VT | reply to dongato17
Great artwork (no kidding). I can say I wish you luck with
the Nokia equipment. I'll be very happy to take back every
word I've said about Nokia if you have good luck.
Please keep us posted. |
|
bito
Premium
join:2001-10-08
Atlanta, GA
| Right about now, it looks like we're going to have to make our own luck  sink or swim though, this is a lot more fun than a regular job
Ken, didn't you say you knew someone who was hanging some of the nokia equipment this last weekend? How did it go? |
|
newisp$
join:2001-06-08
Orleans, VT
| reply to dongato17
I have to admit, I haven't been keeping up with my reading.
To much of that "on-site" stuff keeping me away from my soft
desk job.
Here is the link to the message I saw. I haven't read any updates,
yet. I'll try to read it all by tomorrow morning and if I
see something good, I'll point you that way. |
|
bito
Premium
join:2001-10-08
Atlanta, GA | no worries, i'm on the same list, i just hadn't seen it yet. yeah, i've got about 2000 posts to scan through too |
|
Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
| reply to dongato17
This looks like a big network!
What are the three 5.8Ghz radios going from the switch to the Base Station tower? I was under the impression that most 5.8Ghz equipment took up the entire spectrum and would not work being co-located like that (3 different links on the exact same path). I guess if you used different polarizations you might be able to use two.
How many customers per tower are you expecting? How do you plan to sub-divide the network? The local WISP around our town has 3 towers each connected to each other and to the NOC via Western Multiplex 5.8Ghz radios. Each tower has 12 2.4Ghz FHSS APs, Cisco router, Battery backup, etc. Not sure how they have the routing configured, but everything is fully redundant and each tower is basically an ISP within itself. |
|
dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| reply to dongato17
Re: First Draft of WISP Infrastructure
The 5.8 GHz radios aren't on the same path. They are on the same tower. We are going to use 5.8 GHz radios for the backhaul b/t towers. RadioLan is the cheapest that I've found yet (10mb/s half duplex) and they claim it goes 8 mi ( »isp-planet.com/fixed_wireless/eq···lan.html ). WMUX is just too expensive for us right now (we need something around $2k to shoot our backhaul around). If we have to, we thought of using 2.4 horiz. pol. for our backhaul. Proxim recommends their Stratum MP for a 2.4 backhaul (up to 12 mi). At least with 2.4, I know I can colo 3 of them. I will have to learn more about the 5.8 stuff.... I do know that Bell wants 600/mo per PtP T1 to the remote sites (and they are only about 7 mi apart max).
We are planning on using the Nokia RoofTop gear right now. If we still feel the same way when it is time to buy, then we expect to get 40 users / AirHead with the ability to colo 6 airheads. The cities that we are going to begin serving are pretty small. We will probably put 3 AirHeads/tower in a sector config.
UPSs at the towers is a must do. I don't think we will need a router if we use a bridge.
Let me know if you have more info or questions.
-Hal |
|
dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA | reply to dongato17
How did you do that?
Ken, are you hitting enter after you lines to make them
more user friendly? I REALLY wish I had shrunk my pic
down before posting it, but I wanted it to be readable.
Sorry, guys, about the size..... |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs: |  Perhaps you could edit the post and reduce the size of the image to 400px width.
Thx!  |
|
dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA | reply to dongato17
Re: First Draft of WISP Infrastructure
methinks it's too late. or maybe I just can't find the button |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| said by dongato17:
maybe I just can't find the button
Well, I found the button and fixed it for you.
--
Please consider donating to the Victims' Relief Fund |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| reply to dongato17
Nokia CPE pricing?
I do have a question, Hal. How are you going to convince your subscribers to spend $1k on the CPE? I'm not asking this to be a smarta$s, but, actually am very curious. I really think the Nokia stuff is cool, on the surface, but I'm having a hard time swallowing the $1k CPE pill.
Thx much! 
--
Please consider donating to the Victims' Relief Fund |
|
dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| That is a good question. I don't think that it is possible with residential users....but we do have a few things in our favor:
1) We think we can get the CPE for less than $800 ea. We think that this is the *only* equipment we will have to buy for the enduser (it even acts as a broadband router for the customer, so we might charge more if they want to hook up more than one computer even though it doesn't cost us more).
2) We think we can get businesses to pay the full $800 (they are already doing it with that horrible 2-way sat.)
3) We are looking at collecting $500 from the enduser and paying the rest out of our pocket (we think we can cover the difference with a one year contract and a break contract fee).
Item 3 is the least favorable, but the alternative is to put up a lot more smaller towers around town at probably more cost (with a lot more hassle).
It also depends on how many hops we can make in the real world with this equipment. If it will let us hop 4 or 5 times and still beat ISDN (128k) to the enduser, then it may very well be worth it.
From an engineering standpoint...you really need to have at least two independent paths to each node from the main node to feel comfortable. After all, think what would happen if you lost a customer that is the "gateway" to 10 of your other customers. That would suck. So if you plan to mesh, you really need to be careful with your layout...or tell your customers that they could be without service one day.
Finally, our hope is that the pricing will go down on the Nokia CPE in the near future as other vendors release competitors.... |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Awesome input, Hal. I can tell you've put a lot of thought into this proposed infrastructure. I have a few comments I'd like to add below:
said by dongato17:
1) We think we can get the CPE for less than $800 ea. We think that this is the *only* equipment we will have to buy for the enduser (it even acts as a broadband router for the customer, so we might charge more if they want to hook up more than one computer even though it doesn't cost us more).
Are you planning to purchase several hundred CPE units to negotiate the price down to $800 each? From what I heard, Tessco (the only RoofTop distributor I know at this time) won't budge on the equipment pricing unless someone purchase several hundred units. Curious... said by dongato17:
2) We think we can get businesses to pay the full $800 (they are already doing it with that horrible 2-way sat.)
Yep, that's true. I'm sure you can. But, I think RoofTop is limited to the upper 700kbps. Do you think you can sell businesses that type of speed, i.e. is it fast enough? You can always plan for dedicated P2P's to businesses that need more speed but they can be expensive. said by dongato17:
3) We are looking at collecting $500 from the enduser and paying the rest out of our pocket (we think we can cover the difference with a one year contract and a break contract fee).
That's cool. Do you think the end user will be willing to pony up $500 and sign a one year contract on top of that and note that they will be penalized if they break the contract early? Again, I'm not trying to sound like a smarta$s but am truly interested in your ideas as we're considering RoofTop too but have issues about the cost of the CPE. said by dongato17:
Item 3 is the least favorable, but the alternative is to put up a lot more smaller towers around town at probably more cost (with a lot more hassle).
Actually, this will probably be the best way for you to recoup some of your CPE costs (item #3, that is; not putting up a lot of smaller towers). said by dongato17:
It also depends on how many hops we can make in the real world with this equipment. If it will let us hop 4 or 5 times and still beat ISDN (128k) to the enduser, then it may very well be worth it.
I've heard the bandwidth drops like a rock after three hops. Anything less than 256kbps is probably not desirable, especially since broadband is generally considered anything over 256kbps. said by dongato17:
From an engineering standpoint...you really need to have at least two independent paths to each node from the main node to feel comfortable. After all, think what would happen if you lost a customer that is the "gateway" to 10 of your other customers. That would suck. So if you plan to mesh, you really need to be careful with your layout...or tell your customers that they could be without service one day.
Very true, Hal. Great "out of the box" thinking here. I'd hate to hear what would happen if a customer's kid kicked out the PoE cable from the computer to the outdoor router and all of the traffic goes down for each customer beyond that customer. said by dongato17:
Finally, our hope is that the pricing will go down on the Nokia CPE in the near future as other vendors release competitors....
Let's hope that for every vendor!
Thx much for the info!
--
Please consider donating to the Victims' Relief Fund |
|
bito
Premium
join:2001-10-08
Atlanta, GA
| kory,
The pricing depends on what kind of timespan tesseco wants to deal with. *if* this works in a manner that vaguely resembles the plan we have now (we all know how that goes) then we should probably be buying a couple of hundred over the next X amount of months. It depends if they are willing to think long-term.
We are going to do some preliminary surveys of people and business in the areas we want to serve. Nothing is going to happen if we are not convinced there will be enough people to make this a worthwhile venture. We are going to do some show-and-tell setups, as well as run some ads in local papers and giving them a way to express their interest (web page survey and opinions poll or something).
As for speeds and the installation price, the areas we are dealing with will not have any sort of broadband (dsl, cable) access other than satellite available to them in the forseeable future. Most of these people have never seen anything faster than a dialup. For a lot of us, 256k isn't that fast, because we are used to having it bigger and faster. For most of these folks however, it is above and beyond what they are used to. It isn't broadband that we focusing on selling, but a better solution than what they have and what they could normally get. |
|
bito
Premium
join:2001-10-08
Atlanta, GA
| reply to korym
btw, thanks for your interest and questions. we are glad to be getting as much input as we have as we go along. this forum has become quite a valuable tool for:
1) information (tech, specs, etc)
2) most importantly, getting everyone's opinions and
insights. having someone who has already "been there"
who is constructively letting us know what they
think is great
thanks a lot guys
caleb |
|
dongato17
VIP
join:2000-07-28
Atlanta, GA
| reply to korym
Kory, I personally hate the fact that only Tessco sells this product. At first glance, the guy I was dealing with was ready to drop down considerably (email me at harold.bledsoe@deliberant.com for specifics) with a purchase of 20-40 units per month. When I am more certain of demand, then I will wheel and deal with him. He seemed pretty reasonable. Also, if we can find some other ISPs that want to buy this stuff, maybe we can buy together to get a better price. I don't see why that would be illegal.
700k? That's it!?! What are they doing with the other 1.3mb/s? I am actually waiting to hear back from Nokia what the breakdown is on bandwidth per hop. They really should post that kind of info on their website. But on the other hand, 700k is probably plenty. We will host the websites at the NOC, so they won't have to serve. Oh, and when I say business, I'm thinking law offices and cpas. The biggest business in our first target is probably no more than 20-30 peeps. 700k is plenty to surf and check email from. If we go to larger cities, we may have to look into faster spunk (maybe Nokia will have 10mb stuff out by then).
As far as the break contract fee....nah dude, we won't point it out. It will be in the fine print buried deep within the contract. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be? If that doesn't work, people in the south are pretty reasonable. We'll just explain that we are covering our @sses to pay off their *pretty* equipment.
You have no idea how bad these people are hurting down there. My parents cannot connect to the dialup isp at faster than 28.8 reliably. These people would kill for a reasonably priced always on connection. Besides, I don't think that we are going to market this as "broadband". Instead I think that we will use the "better than dialup" approach. In fact, I think we will pilot our 6 users on an ISDN line
Anyway, keep the questions coming! It really helps Caleb and I think about this stuff. I will post the speed breakdowns as soon as Nokia gives them up.
-Hal
P.S. On a side note, the PtP T1 from the nearest city with DSL to our NOC is $448/mo. I wonder if we can shoot DSL to our NOC to start with using Duct Tape to tie it all together.... |
|
Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
|  reply to dongato17
What options have you looked at?
From hanging out on the ISP-Wireless email list, it seems the Nokia solution isn't very popular. However, that list is full of people with all kinds of opinions, and no one on there has actually deployed it from what I remember reading.
Since it appears you want to do a big deployment, have you tested different types/brands of equipment and compared it to Nokia in your surroundings?
Since trees are your problem, instead of using Nokia you could use microcells. Just a guess, but using 24db parabolic grids on the customer end and an amp'd omni at the base I would think should give you just as much NLOS power as Nokia's 8db omnis.
Considering @ $800 the CPE is about 2x of what an 802.11x CPE setup might be, what does the business plan look like?
I guess I am just a little too used to the classic WISP "star topology", and in my case it was hard enough to convince people to shell out $300 for the CPE, let alone $500...
[text was edited by author 2001-10-24 21:43:03] |
|
korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| reply to bito
Re: Nokia CPE pricing?
said by bito:
We are going to do some preliminary surveys of people and business in the areas we want to serve. Nothing is going to happen if we are not convinced there will be enough people to make this a worthwhile venture. We are going to do some show-and-tell setups, as well as run some ads in local papers and giving them a way to express their interest (web page survey and opinions poll or something).
Excellent, caleb. Background research is vital at the implementation stage. Are you going to purchase an initial Airhead and one or two CPE routers for your show-and-tell setups? What kind of ads are you proposing to run in the papers? You want to make sure you can gain attention but, at the same time, be ready to deliver as expected, when you can. You might consider hooking up with a local newspaper reporter, if you can. We've hooked up with the local technology reporter of an over 500k subscriber paper. Best free advertising we ever had! said by bito:
As for speeds and the installation price, the areas we are dealing with will not have any sort of broadband (dsl, cable) access other than satellite available to them in the forseeable future. Most of these people have never seen anything faster than a dialup. For a lot of us, 256k isn't that fast, because we are used to having it bigger and faster. For most of these folks however, it is above and beyond what they are used to. It isn't broadband that we focusing on selling, but a better solution than what they have and what they could normally get.
Very well said. I'm spoiled because I'm used to surfing via a T3 at work all day and I have (just very recently) gotten a fairly unsaturated cable modem (can't get my own service to myself just yet!) at home.
If you can market your solution in a area where dial-up is the only form of access, as you mentioned, and keep the pricing attractive (they'll need to realize there are benefits when transitioning to fixed wireless from dial-up, but at a price), you'll be golden, IMHO!
--
Please consider donating to the Victims' Relief Fund |
|
