deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
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1 edit | reply to geekamongus
Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time
»torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. there is one of MANY example sites people come across every day with hosed layouts. See attachments for examples of other pages not loading right. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
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| Firefox fails too. |
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Mospaw
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| reply to jDyno
The entire argument is a bit silly to me, upon further reflection.
Dvorak is attacking a standard and cites as evidence of its problems issues of implementation. The analogies as to how this is defective thinking are too many to post and mostly obvious anyway.
CSS isn't perfect. I don't think anyone here would even try to argue that. But it's the best we've got for what it does. Standards have made the web orders of magnitude easier to deal with from everyone's standpoint: developers, users, and so on.
Remember back in the old Netscape Navigator 4.0 vs. Internet Explorer 4.0 where the "standards" had very little overlap, and you had to effectively make a different web site for each browser? I do. It was painful, and using CSS back then even more so. But it wasn't CSS's fault! It was Netscape's fault, Microsoft's fault, and the fault of everyone else who made browsers that didn't adhere to the standard. No, "one site for all" isn't here yet. It may never be. But standards have gotten it a lot closer.
Eliminating standards isn't the solution. Only chaos can result from that. Embracing them may not be for you, but that's irrelevant. A true pro knows what to do. We're not totally "there' yet where standards are truly standard. But we're closer than we ever have been and even stubborn companies are realizing that the wild west days of web innovation are over, and everyone is going to have to learn to play together, using the same toys. |
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geekamongus
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| reply to deepblackmag
That looks like poor coding by the torrentfreak people. 186 validation errors on that page alone, and many are unclosed tags and other things that would trigger exactly such behavior in IE.
Again, not the fault of CSS; the fault of the designer/coder in this case.
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Mospaw
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| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag  :» torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. said by deepblackmag :Firefox fails too. Actually, IE and FF didn't fail. They're rendering the content.
The web developer failed. This is the fault of CSS how?
If I'm ignorant of the law, that doesn't mean I'm allowed to break it. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | reply to geekamongus
And what of the random behavior from the discovery channel website? Clearly they arent halfassed and they STILL SUFFER a similar mis-rendered fate |
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geekamongus
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| said by deepblackmag :And what of the random behavior from the discovery channel website? Clearly they arent halfassed and they STILL SUFFER a similar mis-rendered fate It actually looks fine in Firefox on my PC. BUT, again, the site is poorly coded and validation errors abound. That would be Discovery's fault, not CSS.
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rjackson
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1 edit | reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :» torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. there is one of MANY example sites people come across every day with hosed layouts. See attachments for examples of other pages not loading right. Torrentfreak is poorly coded, plain and simple. For what it's worth though, I only experienced the selecting thing in IE6 on Windows. All other browsers/platforms had no problem at all selecting text.
Your other example, Discovery News, is a Flash problem. You can't overlay divs (the survey thing) over objects embedded on the page. Again, has nothing to do with CSS, and is the result of just a bad job done by the developers.
Please show us a site that uses valid markup and proper CSS that exhibits the problems you describe, or make an example yourself.
All you've shown so far is some examples of people not using their tools correctly. If you hold a hammer backwards, can you drive a nail properly? |
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Mospaw
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| reply to deepblackmag
Being half-assed or not is irrelevant. I've seen some major companies have sites that didn't work well in some, if not all, browsers. I've seen lots of half-assed sites that were absolutely brilliant in their execution.
Being big, having a lot of money, or somehow being a well-known name doesn't excuse poor implementation, inability to adhere to standards, or a lack of validation. it also doesn't guarantee that those things will happen. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
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| reply to geekamongus
Adhereing to standards? what standard! nobody can agree on that at all. The documents about CSS fail to specify concrete source code for an application to CORRECTLY render the formatting!
Maybe the requirements of the web development community are changing. Perhaps we should be working on new standards that arent quite so hard to figure out? Maybe we should call it SSS (stupid style sheets) so all the idiots told to use them instead of tables have a shot in hell of getting it right. Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything about css, and the designers arent exactly stepping in saying who is right and who is wrong, so where does that leave everyboedy in the middle of all this? Screwed. And im sick of dealing with sites like this. The pro-standard people blame the individuals and the implimentations, while the con-standard blame the standards creators and the standard itself with complexity and lack of clear example to work from.
Good game all around. I cant wait for a day when you get stuck at a form because the submit button is obscured by some misrendered hovering DIV. Then you will understand the frustration. |
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000
| Even the holy grail for several of you CSS zealots fails!
Just try selecting the dam text! Most obvious failure ever!
EAT THAT ZEALOT! |
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geekamongus
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| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :Adhereing to standards? what standard! nobody can agree on that at all. The documents about CSS fail to specify concrete source code for an application to CORRECTLY render the formatting! News to me...
said by deepblackmag :Maybe the requirements of the web development community are changing. Perhaps we should be working on new standards that arent quite so hard to figure out? Maybe we should call it SSS (stupid style sheets) so all the idiots told to use them instead of tables have a shot in hell of getting it right. There are thousands of these 'idiots' getting it right every day. Examples abound on the web. Which internet are you using?
said by deepblackmag : Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything about css, and the designers arent exactly stepping in saying who is right and who is wrong, so where does that leave everyboedy in the middle of all this? Screwed. The standards community seems to agree. The major browser vendors seem to agree and with each new release conform further to the CSS spec. Have you read the IE blog lately? Even the IE7 team has vowed to follow the CSS spec, and beta versions of IE are now getting it right, for the most part. Nobody is perfect yet, but they are all trying, and the CSS spec seems to make sense to them, so I don't understand where you are coming from.
said by deepblackmag :And im sick of dealing with sites like this. The pro-standard people blame the individuals and the implimentations, while the con-standard blame the standards creators and the standard itself with complexity and lack of clear example to work from. Again, if they understood the standard and how to use CSS, this wouldn't be a problem. The pro-standards people seem to get it, and it works.
said by deepblackmag :Good game all around. I cant wait for a day when you get stuck at a form because the submit button is obscured by some misrendered hovering DIV. Then you will understand the frustration. When this sort of thing happens, I usually take a look at why, and it is always the fault of the person or people that coded the site.
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Mospaw
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1 edit | reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :... EAT THAT ZEALOT! M'mmmm tasty CSS.... Oh wait. I'm not a zealot. I don't drink the Kool-Ade. I don't get all riled up about this. I do, however, make my living doing it. And have done so for nearly a decade. You might consider that I know at least a tiny bit about which I speak. And when I do, it's typically in well-moderated tones.
Thanks for the links, the laughs and the entertainment. I have come to the conclusion that you are John Dvorak. And as one of the links above pointed out, once Dvorak enters the argument, you have won. Your mind is not going to change. You seem convinced that being contrary and argumentative while avoiding such nasty things as facts. I'm fine with that. No sense opening your mind to the truth.
I see the links you have posted, even to the holy grail site that goes unnamed (:)) but they don't show how ANY of that is the fault of CSS, of which parts are purposely vague and open to interpretation.
I guess for you, it's easier if things were set in concrete and not allowed to change. Ever. That's fine for transmission protocols and such, but for what's really a creative medium, it's not feasible. I'm not going to change your mind, so this is all likely wasted effort. But your own zealousness for ... what is it you stand for and support? -- we know what you hate ... your, um, side, is fun to watch. In the meantime, you haven't received a single "zealous" response.
Pot. Kettle. Black. |
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geekamongus
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| reply to deepblackmag
Sorry to say, that's a known bug in Internet Explorer 6's CSS implementaion, not the fault of CSS.
The CSSZenGarden demo page contains an absolutely positioned div:
#container {
background: url(/001/blossoms.jpg) no-repeat bottom right;
/*background: url(/001/zen-bg.jpg) no-repeat left top; */
padding: 0px 175px 0px 110px;
margin: 0px;
position: absolute;
top: 0px;
left: 0px;
}
The problem seems to be fixed in IE7 beta 3 though...just tested it.
This zealot will be eating nothing today.
:D
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deepblackmag
join:2004-12-27
00000 | reply to Mospaw
Thanks for the fun, i just love trolling site designers =P you guys are too much. See you later, got to get to work. |
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sporkme
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| reply to geekamongus
I guess Dvorak has people scrambling to that site to code around the bug. 
said by msdn server :
Server is too busy
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jDyno
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| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :Those responses dont change the fact that CSS sites are a pain in the ass for users. Try selecting text on half the sites that heavily rely on css and you will end up selecting half the page, or nothing at all. CSS is a pox on the web. Again, this isn't a problem with CSS itself. It's a problem with how people use CSS (incorrectly) to build web sites.
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RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY
| reply to JAAulde
said by JAAulde :Third, differences that do exist are correctable if you understand the technology. For example, to quote KoolMoe : said by KoolMoe :
How come IE and Mozilla work with padding/margins differently? Doesn't the standard specify how that should be dealt with? If not, why not!
IE and the other guys have different 'box models' from each other when IE is in 'quirks' mode. Take IE out of quirks mode and things get much better. How do you get IE out of quirks mode? Ensure your DOCTYPE is valid and is the absolute first bit of text (no white space ahead of it either) in your served page. Answering the question as to why there are differences when IE does things its own way, see the above paragraph about vendors who go against the grain. Query - If I am creating XHTML Pages and start them with:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
in lieu of just:
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
does this mean I am going to get Quirks mode or is IE smart enough to ignore the <?xml and treat the <!DOCTYPE as the first thing it "sees" and thus go into Standards Mode? |
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JAAulde
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Ctrl Alt Del
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| reply to deepblackmag
said by deepblackmag :Even the holy grail for several of you CSS zealots fails! Just try selecting the dam text! Most obvious failure ever! EAT THAT ZEALOT! I don't see any problem. Where is Firefox and Opera failing? They seem to have selected the text perfectly fine.
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