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JAAulde
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time An excellent response.
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| | deepblackmag
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00000 | Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time Those responses dont change the fact that CSS sites are a pain in the ass for users. Try selecting text on half the sites that heavily rely on css and you will end up selecting half the page, or nothing at all. CSS is a pox on the web. | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time Got any links to back that "selection" problem up? I have seen it happen, but in what, 0.5% of sites out there. I keep hearing this is some sort of epidemic, but nobody ever posts proof, or even a single link. Text selection is almost like the "big foot' of CSS problems. Lots of people have anecdotal evidence, but nobody ever produces anything believable.
CSS might be a pox on the web, but it makes the web look a lot nicer. And it's easier to assemble than tables. | |
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JAAulde
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1 edit | said by deepblackmag  :Those responses dont change the fact that CSS sites are a pain in the ass for users. Try selecting text on half the sites that heavily rely on css and you will end up selecting half the page, or nothing at all. CSS is a pox on the web. Can't say that any CSS site (coded by me or anyone else) has given me any real fit. But I am pretty good at positioning the mouse where I need it... 
But even if that were an issue--that text selecting problem, does that one little glitch cause the whole technology to be problematic or cause a whole site to be un-usable (or a pain in the ass as you put it)? Of course not. Show me a bug free technology...
Furthermore, if there really is a text selecting issue (which as I said I have not seen), it isn't the fault of the technology. It is the fault of the vendor who is mis-implementing the technology. Do you really think the individuals who wrote the CSS standard said, "I know, let's add in a messed up version of text selection!" Get real.
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| | | | deepblackmag
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time The vendors each follow the same specification and all come to different conclusions. These are the same exact coders that are capable of following http, ftp, and dozens of other protocol specifications, so why the discrepancies here? Why so many of them in one place? The standard is clearly flawed, and should be scrapped in favor of a new standard properly outlined with CONTRETE EXAMPLES provided (YES that means you bums at the w3c need to start CODING what your preaching) instead of just arguing about policy. | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time I sense just a bit of anger here. Bums? Why so vitriolic?
FTP is a relatively simple protocol. You can read and understand it in a day or two. The same with HTTP and likely "dozens of other protocols". There is no "fudge factor". They are protocols for allowing machines to speak to each other in narrowly defined circumstances.
CSS is an entirely different animal. By its very nature, it's more complex. It covers a vast array of possible formats, designs, tastes and even, no pun intended, styles. Comparing FTP to CSS (standardized or not) is like comparing a door handle to a jet engine.
I'm not saying that the CSS standard is perfect. Written into it is room for interpretation. And as you have so elegantly pointed out, different vendors interpret things differently. I still don't see how this is a problem with the technology. I call it flexibility.
Rather than attacking things on a wholesale level due to a few minor deficiencies, your energies would be better spent actually trying to improve that's wrong or coming up with a better solution.
So, since CSS is so bad, so worthless, so utterly beyond repair, what's better for the same task? Or what are you doing to improve it? | |
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| pox (pŏks)
n.
1. A disease such as chickenpox or smallpox, characterized by purulent skin eruptions that may leave pockmarks.
2. Syphilis.
3. Archaic. Misfortune and calamity.
I fail to see how CSS can be associated with any of the possible definitions for 'pox'.
Every single argument I have ever heard against the use of CSS is always, without fail, based on a lack of understanding of the technology. People who refuse to learn it, who lash out against it, who say it is too buggy, who say it is terrible, etc etc etc, all have one thing in common: they do not know how to use it.
Not once have I ever seen anyone learn to use CSS to an intermediate degree abandon it, write it off, or continue to blather about how terrible it is.
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| | | | deepblackmag
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time There is no point arguing with CSS fanboys that are unwilling to see the negative side of their favorite toy to avoid doing work. Thats right, you use it because its fewer keystrokes and less thinking. If you want a page that behaves as people have come to expect over the years, use tables. If you want random behavior and differing appearances use CSS. How hard is that to understand. Im done posting for today, webdevs give me a headache. | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time said by deepblackmag :There is no point arguing with CSS fanboys that are unwilling to see the negative side of their favorite toy to avoid doing work. Thats right, you use it because its fewer keystrokes and less thinking. If you want a page that behaves as people have come to expect over the years, use tables. If you want random behavior and differing appearances use CSS. How hard is that to understand. Im done posting for today, webdevs give me a headache. The pages I code all look the same in all browsers.
I am webdev, see me code.
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geekamongus
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| said by deepblackmag :There is no point arguing with CSS fanboys that are unwilling to see the negative side of their favorite toy to avoid doing work. Thats right, you use it because its fewer keystrokes and less thinking. If you want a page that behaves as people have come to expect over the years, use tables. If you want random behavior and differing appearances use CSS. How hard is that to understand. Im done posting for today, webdevs give me a headache. This sums up well my point from above. A deeper knowledge (heck, a basic knowledge) of CSS would reveal that it is very easy to create entire sites that have no 'random behavior' or 'differing appearances'.
Seen MSN lately? How about Yahoo? Nary a layout table in site!
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| | | | | | deepblackmag
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1 edit | Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time »torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. there is one of MANY example sites people come across every day with hosed layouts. See attachments for examples of other pages not loading right. | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time Firefox fails too. | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time said by deepblackmag :» torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. said by deepblackmag :Firefox fails too. Actually, IE and FF didn't fail. They're rendering the content.
The web developer failed. This is the fault of CSS how?
If I'm ignorant of the law, that doesn't mean I'm allowed to break it. | |
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| That looks like poor coding by the torrentfreak people. 186 validation errors on that page alone, and many are unclosed tags and other things that would trigger exactly such behavior in IE.
Again, not the fault of CSS; the fault of the designer/coder in this case.
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| | | | | | | | deepblackmag
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00000 | Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time And what of the random behavior from the discovery channel website? Clearly they arent halfassed and they STILL SUFFER a similar mis-rendered fate | |
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time said by deepblackmag :And what of the random behavior from the discovery channel website? Clearly they arent halfassed and they STILL SUFFER a similar mis-rendered fate It actually looks fine in Firefox on my PC. BUT, again, the site is poorly coded and validation errors abound. That would be Discovery's fault, not CSS.
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| Being half-assed or not is irrelevant. I've seen some major companies have sites that didn't work well in some, if not all, browsers. I've seen lots of half-assed sites that were absolutely brilliant in their execution.
Being big, having a lot of money, or somehow being a well-known name doesn't excuse poor implementation, inability to adhere to standards, or a lack of validation. it also doesn't guarantee that those things will happen. | |
| | | | | | | | deepblackmag
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| Adhereing to standards? what standard! nobody can agree on that at all. The documents about CSS fail to specify concrete source code for an application to CORRECTLY render the formatting!
Maybe the requirements of the web development community are changing. Perhaps we should be working on new standards that arent quite so hard to figure out? Maybe we should call it SSS (stupid style sheets) so all the idiots told to use them instead of tables have a shot in hell of getting it right. Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything about css, and the designers arent exactly stepping in saying who is right and who is wrong, so where does that leave everyboedy in the middle of all this? Screwed. And im sick of dealing with sites like this. The pro-standard people blame the individuals and the implimentations, while the con-standard blame the standards creators and the standard itself with complexity and lack of clear example to work from.
Good game all around. I cant wait for a day when you get stuck at a form because the submit button is obscured by some misrendered hovering DIV. Then you will understand the frustration. | |
| | | | | | | | | deepblackmag
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time Even the holy grail for several of you CSS zealots fails!
Just try selecting the dam text! Most obvious failure ever!
EAT THAT ZEALOT! | |
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1 edit | Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time said by deepblackmag :... EAT THAT ZEALOT! M'mmmm tasty CSS.... Oh wait. I'm not a zealot. I don't drink the Kool-Ade. I don't get all riled up about this. I do, however, make my living doing it. And have done so for nearly a decade. You might consider that I know at least a tiny bit about which I speak. And when I do, it's typically in well-moderated tones.
Thanks for the links, the laughs and the entertainment. I have come to the conclusion that you are John Dvorak. And as one of the links above pointed out, once Dvorak enters the argument, you have won. Your mind is not going to change. You seem convinced that being contrary and argumentative while avoiding such nasty things as facts. I'm fine with that. No sense opening your mind to the truth.
I see the links you have posted, even to the holy grail site that goes unnamed (:)) but they don't show how ANY of that is the fault of CSS, of which parts are purposely vague and open to interpretation.
I guess for you, it's easier if things were set in concrete and not allowed to change. Ever. That's fine for transmission protocols and such, but for what's really a creative medium, it's not feasible. I'm not going to change your mind, so this is all likely wasted effort. But your own zealousness for ... what is it you stand for and support? -- we know what you hate ... your, um, side, is fun to watch. In the meantime, you haven't received a single "zealous" response.
Pot. Kettle. Black. | |
| | | | | | | | | | deepblackmag
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00000 | Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time Thanks for the fun, i just love trolling site designers =P you guys are too much. See you later, got to get to work. | |
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| Sorry to say, that's a known bug in Internet Explorer 6's CSS implementaion, not the fault of CSS.
The CSSZenGarden demo page contains an absolutely positioned div:
#container {
background: url(/001/blossoms.jpg) no-repeat bottom right;
/*background: url(/001/zen-bg.jpg) no-repeat left top; */
padding: 0px 175px 0px 110px;
margin: 0px;
position: absolute;
top: 0px;
left: 0px;
}
The problem seems to be fixed in IE7 beta 3 though...just tested it.
This zealot will be eating nothing today.
:D
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| Re: Dvorak embarrasses himself on CSS instead of Macs this time I guess Dvorak has people scrambling to that site to code around the bug. 
said by msdn server :
Server is too busy
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| said by deepblackmag :Even the holy grail for several of you CSS zealots fails! Just try selecting the dam text! Most obvious failure ever! EAT THAT ZEALOT! I don't see any problem. Where is Firefox and Opera failing? They seem to have selected the text perfectly fine.
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geekamongus
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| said by deepblackmag :Adhereing to standards? what standard! nobody can agree on that at all. The documents about CSS fail to specify concrete source code for an application to CORRECTLY render the formatting! News to me...
said by deepblackmag :Maybe the requirements of the web development community are changing. Perhaps we should be working on new standards that arent quite so hard to figure out? Maybe we should call it SSS (stupid style sheets) so all the idiots told to use them instead of tables have a shot in hell of getting it right. There are thousands of these 'idiots' getting it right every day. Examples abound on the web. Which internet are you using?
said by deepblackmag : Nobody seems to be able to agree on anything about css, and the designers arent exactly stepping in saying who is right and who is wrong, so where does that leave everyboedy in the middle of all this? Screwed. The standards community seems to agree. The major browser vendors seem to agree and with each new release conform further to the CSS spec. Have you read the IE blog lately? Even the IE7 team has vowed to follow the CSS spec, and beta versions of IE are now getting it right, for the most part. Nobody is perfect yet, but they are all trying, and the CSS spec seems to make sense to them, so I don't understand where you are coming from.
said by deepblackmag :And im sick of dealing with sites like this. The pro-standard people blame the individuals and the implimentations, while the con-standard blame the standards creators and the standard itself with complexity and lack of clear example to work from. Again, if they understood the standard and how to use CSS, this wouldn't be a problem. The pro-standards people seem to get it, and it works.
said by deepblackmag :Good game all around. I cant wait for a day when you get stuck at a form because the submit button is obscured by some misrendered hovering DIV. Then you will understand the frustration. When this sort of thing happens, I usually take a look at why, and it is always the fault of the person or people that coded the site.
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1 edit | said by deepblackmag :» torrentfreak.com/ ~~~ try selecting the text "The world leaders..." in the latest version of IE. there is one of MANY example sites people come across every day with hosed layouts. See attachments for examples of other pages not loading right. Torrentfreak is poorly coded, plain and simple. For what it's worth though, I only experienced the selecting thing in IE6 on Windows. All other browsers/platforms had no problem at all selecting text.
Your other example, Discovery News, is a Flash problem. You can't overlay divs (the survey thing) over objects embedded on the page. Again, has nothing to do with CSS, and is the result of just a bad job done by the developers.
Please show us a site that uses valid markup and proper CSS that exhibits the problems you describe, or make an example yourself.
All you've shown so far is some examples of people not using their tools correctly. If you hold a hammer backwards, can you drive a nail properly? | |
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| said by deepblackmag :Those responses dont change the fact that CSS sites are a pain in the ass for users. Try selecting text on half the sites that heavily rely on css and you will end up selecting half the page, or nothing at all. CSS is a pox on the web. I think I asked you in the other CSS thread for some examples of this, because I personally haven't encountered a site you couldn't select text on that was caused by a CSS layout. You didn't respond there, and I suspect you won't here either.
»Re: CSS vs. Table design - do you agree or disagree?
Discussing the pros and cons of a technology is one thing. Making blanket statements about something without backing it up with facts is just empty rhetoric. This is your chance to put up or shut up. | |
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| said by deepblackmag :Those responses dont change the fact that CSS sites are a pain in the ass for users. Try selecting text on half the sites that heavily rely on css and you will end up selecting half the page, or nothing at all. CSS is a pox on the web. Again, this isn't a problem with CSS itself. It's a problem with how people use CSS (incorrectly) to build web sites.
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3 edits | Those who know, do. Those who don't, are Dvorak.
I think I've finally figured out his recipe: Take a few blanket statements that are so vague anyone can find "truth" in them. Mix in a quick compliment to take away the sour (and any appearance of partiality). Sprinkle on a liberal dose of half-truths and combine with blustering ignorance. Make sure all theories are half-baked. Publish. Repeat.
Dvorak is a journalist, not a web designer. The technologies aren't bad. He simply doesn't know them. I'd love to see him write an article about rebuilding a car engine. "What's with all the grease? These engines all need lubrication. You'd figure after 100-plus years of development, the internal combustion engine would be friction-free by now." And so on.
I am a web designer and have been for about a decade now. (I've actually been a journalist, but that's a different rant.) Sure anyone can learn some basic Photoshop and a little HTML and throw together a web site. Many even look good. But to really pull it off elegantly, whether with pure CSS and standards-compliant or tables, font tags, and blank gifs, requires a deep understanding of the underlying standards. HTML, CSS, JavaScript, etc. It also requires understanding that transcends the technologies themselves, such as user interface design, accessibility, usability, and just being able to get that message out. If you have only partial knowledge or fail to understand the why of things, you're going to fall short. If your knowledge of the technologies is lacking, you might miss out on salient points that would help you.
It's clear that Dvorak isn't approaching this with a designer's mind so much as he probably wants his designs to coalesce in front of him automatically, delivered by some machine god that already knows what he wants. Too bad such a thing doesn't exist.
Yet, he has valid complaints under all the ignorance. Working around browser inconsistencies is a bit of a pain, but do any amount of web design and you quickly learn what these problems are and, more importantly, how to avoid them. Most important, however, is that as a web designer, it's your job to do know these workarounds and employ them. In an ideal world, it wouldn't be necessary, but name a profession where all things are ideal. If you don't the tools that are available or how web sites are designed and built you can quit the business, learn how to deal with it or make your own browser.
Better yet, Dvorak, hire a real web designer who know what he's doing and save the bitching for how Microsoft Vista will stink. Or rule. Or how Apple is finally (after 20+ years of waiting) going out of business. Or not.
Maybe we should be happy that Dvorak got a new theme about which to espouse his tremendous ignorance. Really, stick with something you're qualified to do. Something along the lines of "Would you like fries with that?" Dvorak exists to blather on about things he knows little about, get some attention and move onto the next target of his ignorance. The part about "cascading" really proves that out.
CSS is hardly perfect, but it's a damn good tool, and (for me, a professional) works better than any alternatives. It's not easy, but it's not meant to be. Until it becomes easy enough that anyone can do it by thought alone, I'll still stick with effective. | |
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