bbrookfield
Premium
join:2003-09-24
Indian Rocks Beach, FL
| [ViaTalk] Partial fix for DTMF issue
I like a few other users have been having the problem with DTMF (Touch tones) do not work with outside systems when the XMit method is AUTO. When I change XMit method to INBAND, everything EXCEPT VT Voicemail works. Well tonight I upgraded the PAP2 firmware to 3.1.12(LS) and reset a my Line 1 setting for XMit method to AUTO, REGIONAL settings DTMF Playback Length to .1 and DTMF Playback level to -16. Now my DTMF is working a lot better. I still hear 2 separate touch tones when I call my Cell, but the ViaTalk Voicemail now works as well as my bank when in Auto Mode. I can even call VT Tech support and use the Priority support option (2 - 4 - 1999-555-1234) . I still think that it should not have 2 tones for each number press, but it does seem to work. Also noted that my calls seem cleaner (Less noise) then before. I will wait a couple of days before I get my hopes up too much, Just wanted to pass this along. |
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | Good work bbrookfield! Let us know how it goes please. |
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bbrookfield
Premium
join:2003-09-24
Indian Rocks Beach, FL
| reply to bbrookfield
Well, not so good as I thought. The Auto setting for DTMF is better then before, but not as good as INBAND. My bank and Credit card did not get the numbers right all the time (About 60% I would Guess). I have reset back to INBAND and will only change it when I need to call for Voice Mail. On a positive note, My wife and I do believe that the call Sound quality is a wee-bit better then before the Firmware upgrade. Funny thing is that in Auto, I get the tone when I press down a digit and get it again when I release the digit (Very short tone each time). In INBAND mode, the tone stays on as long as I hold the button down. Anyone have any tech explanations on what the difference between INBAND and AUTO mode is. INBAND seems more like a typical POTS phone, at least that is how it sounds when I call my Cell and listen as I press different numbers. |
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poolek
join:2003-11-04
Austin, TX
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·AT&T U-Verse
 ·ViaTalk
 ·AT&T Yahoo
| I'm not an expert on this stuff, so what I say may be wrong - but this is what I understand from reading stuff...
When you press a button on the phone, it generates the DTMF tone that is sent to the PAP2.
If you have INBAND, nothing is done. The PAP2 passes the DTMF tone through the codec just like any other sound. This tends to work ok with high quality codecs. With codecs that use more compression, the DTMF sound ends up being too distorted to work.
If you have one of the out-of-band options set, the PAP2 recognizes the DTMF tone and sends a signal outside of the codec that indicates which button was pressed. Somewhere on the VOIP server side, the system gets this code then regenerates the DTMF code. This prevents the compression from the codec from messing up the DTMF sound. Somewhere in there, the DTMF sound that's generated by the phone itself is supposed to be muted. I don't know if that occurs at the adaptor or server-side. Where ever it occurs, that's where VT's implementation fails. The first DTMF tone you hear is from your phone handset. The second is the regeneration from VT's server.
I would -guess- that VT VM system isn't 'listening' for DTMF codes, instead it's looking for the out-of-band signals. That's why it doesn't work when you set the adaptor to 'INBAND'. Every other IVR out there would just listen for the tones since they wouldn't have access to the out of band stuff. So, INBAND works with everything else because it doesn't introduce duplication due to the lack of muting, and the codec VT uses is high enough quality to accurately replicate the tone.
Theoretically, you could access VT voicemail with INBAND if you're calling in from any VOIP other provider because VT's voicemail interface to the 'outside' world would be listening for DTMF, not looking for the out of band stuff. It just doesn't work when you're calling from your own VT line.
FWIW - I have the updated firmware and still have issues with DTMF. I firmly believe I'll continued to have issues until the muting issue is resolved (don't know if that's a VT issue or a PAP2 issue), or VT changes their VM to also listen for INBAND DTMF. |
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poolek
join:2003-11-04
Austin, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T U-Verse
·ViaTalk
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to bbrookfield
Well, typing that response made me think to try something, and it works!
Set your adaptor to INBAND, but instead of dialing *123 to get to your voicemail, dial your full VT phone number and press '*' to get the password prompt. INBAND works just fine there! I guess that side of the VT VM system is 'listening' for DTMF.
That means I can just reprogram my VM button on my phone to access the VM system using this method and leave the DTFM set to INBAND. |
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bbrookfield
Premium
join:2003-09-24
Indian Rocks Beach, FL | Hey, That is a GREAT idea!!!. Now the only thing that may be an issue is the Custom Calling Features. I will try them all and report back. If this works, I will request the my Default Config be set to INBAND. |
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stevech1
join:2005-01-08
1 edit | reply to bbrookfield
said by bbrookfield  :...My bank and Credit card did not get the numbers right all the time (About 60% I would Guess). I have reset back to INBAND and will only change it when I need to call for Voice Mail. Let's see:
Bank's IVR: no workie
Credit Card Co. IVR: no workie
"... will only change it [to/from INBAND] when I need to call for Voice Mail"
Now that will be convenient for the family members!
Tolerance is a virtue! |
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VTBrendan
Viatalk
Premium,VIP
join:2005-06-27
Clifton Park, NY
| The proper setting for DTMF of your device, is auto. If you are having issues once set to this setting, give our tech support staff a call and have them work with you on this. If you continue to have issues, submit a ticket and ask to have it sent to the attention of iain whom will be able to troubleshoot any issues you are having.
-Brendan |
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ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs: | reply to stevech1
Bank of America's IVR doubles the DTMF tones, but GMAC works fine...interesting. |
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UPEngineer
Premium
join:2000-12-30
Chickasha, OK
| reply to VTBrendan
I submitted a trouble ticket on July 14th in regards to my dmtf tones on my line not working properly. They were working fine until that time so I don't know what changed. Anyways, I received the following reply shortly after submitting the ticket:
"We are working on this issue and expect a resolution soon.
Karen L Harvey
ViaTalk Support"
The issues still exists and I submitted another follow up ticket with what VTBrendan said to do.
Let's see if it can get resolved! |
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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to VTBrendan
VTBrendan,
With all due respect, your DTMF is busted ... No if and or butts about it.
For us VT users, we stick with "inband" because that's what works with the untold millions of places we call. We have NO issues with using inband unless we use VT voice mail. It only works on without "Inband". Auto doesn't work with my clients Voice mail system and we have ten's of people who take the time to post about the double tones.
I have been a very positive supporter of VT, the service and your support have been great, but this issue hasn't made any progress, none, zip, nada ... The issue is not DTMF ( we all can use inband thankyou ), it is your inhouse voice mail needing anything but inband to work
I had assumed you knew it was still fubar'ed and were working inhouse to resolve.
If you still have doubts, or think I'm just a noisy or pushy VT user, use your own service, call a cell phone and listen for yourself on the double tones when Auto is selected.
For me, I just don't use your Voice Mail and have "in Band selected". When the day comes you have a perminate fix, I'll switch back to auto
I am sorry if this post is a bit rough. My intent was for you to understand it has NEVER worked and still doesn't. Most of us just give up. I for one have many other things to do than worry if all my features work.
Best Regards |
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bbrookfield
Premium
join:2003-09-24
Indian Rocks Beach, FL
| I am a certified ViaTalk supporter. The features and price IMHO are the best. My only complaint is that the story I (we) get from VT tech support is not always consistent. Some tech's say "It's a known issue and we are working on it" Some act as if they have not heard of the issue and spend a lot of time trying to solve it for the customer. It would seem to me that AUTO is Viatalks preferred DTMF Xmit method. But we as users are finding that INBAND is what works (Except VT Voicemail). VTBrendan, why can't you setup VT's Voicemail to accept INBAND? The Codec that is used by VT is about the best (At the cost of high bandwidth) quality Codec and this is shown to be true by the use of INBAND as the method we the customers have found to work. What we need here is a quick poll. If you use the AUTO mode and it works, Please let us know. Maybe the problem is restricted to just a few users. IF so, then I am willing to be patient. If not, then lets get working on a fix and make sure all VT's tech support staff are on the same page.
Bill B |
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poolek
join:2003-11-04
Austin, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T U-Verse
·ViaTalk
·AT&T Yahoo
| reply to VTBrendan
I submitted a ticket over a week ago (IBU-59585) and haven't received any response yet. With the work-around I found for VM access though, I can leave my adaptor set to 'INBAND' and access all IVRs just fine.
This would be easier if VT Voicemail recognized inband DTMF without having to use a workaround. Either that, or figure out why the duplication is occuring and fix the root cause.
Like guppy_fish said, it's easy to replicate - just set the adaptor to 'auto' and call your cell phone and listen to the tones. The are obviously being duplicated. Or just call the number I listed as an example in my Ticket and listen to it read back the duplicate codes.
This duplication has gotten much more consistent since the system was adjusted a week or two ago. Inband solves the problem for every system I've tried with the single exception of VT VM. |
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Hooper
Premium
join:2001-10-22
Villanova, PA
| reply to bbrookfield
Can someone post a number that they are having problems with? I have a couple different devices I can test with. I have never heard the double dtmf issue or had any problems with dtmf on VT. Not to say I haven't had this problem with other providers like VP, LiveVoip etc.
One of the devices I have is a stock PAP2 running 3.1.9 FW in Xmit=Auto mode from VT on a new account. Another is a SPA-2000, 3000, and 1000. Obviously these aren't all connected right now, but can easily be setup.
1-800-PICK-UPS has always been a problematic number for me. How about you all? |
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bbrookfield
Premium
join:2003-09-24
Indian Rocks Beach, FL
| For me, If I call VT's Priority support number enter 2 then enter 4 it prompts for my VT Phone number. It always says that is not a valid number. Also if I try and use VoiceMail from home, It accepts the *123 but then fails when I try and enter my password. This is when it is set to AUTO. My bank says account number is invalid. |
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stevech1
join:2005-01-08
4 edits | reply to bbrookfield
Re INBAND DTMF and double-digit-detection (push some number and the far end IVR thinks it was pushed 2+ times in a row)...
I read on other forums that the PAP2 has new chipsets and may fix the design problem in the PAPs for In-Band. Or not.
The ATA (all of them I suppose) tries to detect DTMF from the attached phone. As soon as the tone-pair (a digit) is detected, the ATA tries to suppress the tones from going forward, in-band, that is, it tries to squelch the tones. Having detected the DTMF, the ATA should generate the equivalent SIP signalling (digital message) and that's all that there is to it. Correctly reacting the the arriving SIP signalling is the responsibility of the VoIP provider's system. I suppose it would convert the SIP message to SS7 messaging if the connection uses that kind of trunk (public switched telephone system) or leave it SIP, or whatever, according to the gateway's connection for this call.
As I understand, using INBAND, the phone's DTMF is passed on down the voice circuit "inband" rather than being squelched and converted to SIP. It is possible that some ATAs try to squelch the phone's tone and replace it with the same tones but created by the ATA itself, rather than the phone. And the ATA's tones would be at a well defined level and of a fixed duration (perhaps shorter than the button-pushed-time on the phone).
What I think I read is that the PAP (version 1?) and TBD on PAP2s, in squelching the DTMF from the phone, let a bit of that tone pass by before squelching. Then there's a brief quiet time, then the tones appear again - created this time by either the ATA itself (inband case) or by the switching system (SIP-to-SS7 message case). The brief gap causes the far end IVR to sense two successive tone bursts.
Another problem with a different root cause, that I and others have noticed, is that the DTMF tones as heard by the far end are grossly distorted, having been created incorrectly by the ATA and/or the VT switching system depending on the inband mode.
Or I'm all wrong. In which case, sorry, ignore this. |
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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
·Verizon FIOS
| The PAP2 is a very poor adapter, mine hums unless I short the second phone port and now it seems the auto DTMF could be the cause of the double tones is the actual adapter. Nice how We have to dig up this info and no, its not THIS adapter I have, its the model ( PAP2 ) as it has been swapped out.
ViaTalk, are you listening? ... since most of us have this adapter ( you sent it ) and we must use inband, we need YOUR voice mail to work with inband.
Brendan ... can we make this any simpler for you to fix? |
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bd23
join:2005-08-12
Topeka, KS
| reply to bbrookfield
The PAP2 is not the problem.. It will do the same thing with any other ATA. For some reason, Asterisk (which Viatalk uses) will not recognize the tones when using inband when dialing directly to voicemail (no trunk). However, for DTMF to work properly on Viatalk when using a trunk, you need to use inband. So really, the only way right now is to set your device to inband and call your phone number and press * to get your voicemail.
Every Asterisk system I have used does this same thing... Very annoying as inband is used by a lot of providers. |
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NoVaVoiper
join:2003-10-21
Arlington, VA
·ViaTalk
| I'll echo the comments that auto is not working and I've had a ticket open for months on this. The last change was supposed to fix the problem, but while it may have helped the detection of the "#" key, there is still a problem with unclear tones in "Auto" mode. I am currently using the inband workaround mentioned above (thanks poolek) and am content, but there is a problem with the system. |
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VTBrendan
Viatalk
Premium,VIP
join:2005-06-27
Clifton Park, NY | Anyone still awake who wants to test out a fix on this?
-Brendan |
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