72245156
TSWB.org
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| reply to HFB1217
Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job
The last word in the last thread in DCS had to do with DCS members complaining about unapproved BBR teams linking back to BBR. However, I'm about to change that. I just haven't had time Hank. Teamstarfire.net is, and has been for years, our web site and home for information not hosted on BBR. It just hasn't been updated a lot in the last couple of years. 
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72245156
TSWB.org
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| reply to RPM Jack
said by RPM Jack  :I believe the way it works is that they can run whatever project they want, but if they want to crunch for a project as part of a team associated with DSLR, the site has the right to say yea or nay on the use of the DSLR/BBR name. Is that how it was when you were a mod or the leader of the DCE? Um, the current DCS has taken it a lot farther than that and that is what we find unacceptable. Use of the BBR/DSLR name, sure. Whether the Team Starfire name is put on it and we discuss it in this forum, or any other forum, that is hands off.
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m00kie
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| reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 :The last word in the last thread in DCS had to do with DCS members complaining about unapproved BBR teams linking back to BBR. However, I'm about to change that. I just haven't had time Hank. Teamstarfire.net is, and has been for years, our web site and home for information not hosted on BBR. It just hasn't been updated a lot in the last couple of years. And I for one am grateful to Xaak for putting in all the work and time that he did to update our old site. It used to depress me when I would go there and see nothing new for like 2 years.
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justin
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2 edits | reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 : Team Starfire's members are the ones who decide what Team Starfire does. Not me, not the forum hosts, not an advisory group and not management. Our members decide what we do. This is something I lost sight of and found tonight. Glad you mentioned this, because where is the vote that showed that members want to take the entire team offsite?
What I want and what most members want is clubs here that enjoy their efforts, and get along. With multiple clubs that entails some joint decision-making. You quit DCS because you think it is broken. Unfortunately YOU GUYS have to make it work, there is no alternative: making it work means not getting your own way over some things, for some of the time. Other teams also will not get their way over some things as well. You're supposed to be working for common good, not doing this thing to be competitive to a fault, to compare numbers for the sake of the numbers.
In taking your ball and going home (if this is my understanding of what you are doing) u are discounting the long LONG history dslreports.com has in supporting seti/stargfire and ignoring that 90+% of the team recruits found and joined the team here and that most of the WU history of the team is from members no longer active who were very happy crunching on-site and had no beef with the site.
Instead of working with the site (via the DCS) or simply leaving to find a differnet team more agreeable to you, or nominating other members of starfire who CAN work with the DCS, you're taking this accumulated good-will, and all members, and trying to transfer it off-site.
Your idea that people can run SETI here, then avoid anything inconvenient by hopping over to the Starfire site where you hold 100% of the vote and don't have to deal with any other teams, isn't going to happen.
The team was built almost entirely via support of & recruitment from members of dslreports.com over the years. I was one of the first members of it, and have done what little I could to keep it powered up.
In my view, and bear in mind I'm late into this decision so I might be missing something - The RIGHT thing is for you and anyone else who feels strongly about DCS to resign and start your own team, on your own site, and invite any members who wish to join it. I'd even let you have a free window of publicity for that choice. The WRONG thing to do would be to take advantage of your position - as holders of a seti team creation password - and unilaterally move all members, whether they like it or not, over to their new site, and new name (which by necessity will lack any association here).
One way or another I have to maintain a SETI forum and team here, but can't do it as a mere feeder for your personal enterprise.
Any team that is only willing to treat dslreports.com as a place to get a free forum, bandwidth and member flow, can have no home here, no ongoing flow of new members to recruit from, no links, no news, no traffic. It'll have to survive by itself. I'm not sure any large scale distributed computing has grown fast on its own merits, entirely divorced from a larger supporting community that promotes it. Teams spring from communities, teams don't make communities.
Starting a team from scratch without a community is very difficult, stealing an existing team and renaming and rehoming it spoils its history and trajectory, destroys its future too - as it stalls out in recruitment - and disrespects efforts of those PAST members (including me) no longer around and in the loop to object, who crunched and banked units for starfire-dslreports, not starfire-ron.
I re-iterate, a much better way to have done this would be you and your friends who supposedly represents the desires of the WHOLE team start up a new damn team, and hope that members can be attracted over based on the new teams merits, stats, and leadership. If you are right, you'll get your members, if you are wrong, you won't and it'll fail. But perhaps doing things that way is too much like hard work?
Or you could also ask for a vote that requires high participation from members and puts forward the proposition to all members "do we go it alone or not", if that vote came back as 70% positive to your proposal, versus staying on-site and working things out, then you could take the team history and name with some honor. |
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Xaak
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join:2002-06-19 | Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? |
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justin
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| said by Xaak :Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? It is the consequence of building an external site, with forums, and inviting members who crunch for starfire to re-home there - apparently because starfire itself abdicates from the DCS, or states that it cannot and will not work with the DCS.
We can't have a team associated with dslreports.com that is not prepared to engage in some joint decision making with other teams. If there is an external forum for a team, controlled by the people who control the name of the team at seti, then it has moved itself offsite!
Please correct me if anything above is wrong. The whole distributed computing thing has become complicated and with a lot of he-said she-said - but this is my understanding of the problems so far. Is there not external forums and an external home for starfire? |
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| reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 :The last word in the last thread in DCS had to do with DCS members complaining about unapproved BBR teams linking back to BBR. What I said exactly was "The Rosetta@Home team run by Team Starfire isn't sanctioned by the site, and the association between Starfire and that team has to end."
The association was removed. Now it's back. Nobody said "We'll just move it offsite and while we keep using the SETI forum, OK?" The reply would have been negative. But of course the question was never asked.
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72245156
TSWB.org
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1 edit | reply to justin
Actually Justin, I agree with what you just posted 100%. I'm not taking the team anywhere.
DCS is supposed to work to a common good. It's also supposed to work for the members it represents and it doesn't. Rather than beat our heads against the brick walls we left. It was hurting too much.
You appointed an extra management rep to try to help us work some things out and it got nowhere which was really disappointing.
We aren't taking a ball and going home. That is a misconception. So, let's work to fix things.
Edited for spelling.
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Xaak
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| reply to fatness
As you know, I no longer have access, but the issue was that the team linked to TeamStarfire.net, which in turn also linked back to here. We removed all references to this site from there, and we're no longer members of the DCS, the "conflict of interest" talked about there simply doesn't exist anymore.
If it's not an official team, and can have no references to BBR or links here, what exactly is the problem linking it to TS.net? And if it's not an official team, do you now want to control where we can discuss it? I'm really confused here...
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72245156
TSWB.org
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1 edit | reply to fatness
said by fatness :said by 72245156 :The last word in the last thread in DCS had to do with DCS members complaining about unapproved BBR teams linking back to BBR. What I said exactly was "The Rosetta@Home team run by Team Starfire isn't sanctioned by the site, and the association between Starfire and that team has to end." The association was removed. Now it's back. Nobody said "We'll just move it offsite and while we keep using the SETI forum, OK?" The reply would have been negative. But of course the question was never asked. Sorry Scott, I didn't see that post. All I saw was complaining that Einstein and LHC were linking back here.
Look, I just want to know one thing. Why should the members of Team Starfire who wish to run Rosetta@home as a team, but not for Team Helix, be forced to go elsewhere to do so and not discuss it here?
Edited for spelling.
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HFB1217
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2 edits | reply to 72245156
Justin
They do not represent me and a great number of team members even some of those who are supporting him now have said to me they don't want to and won't leave BBRSeti.
As to DCS They personally may have left DCS but the team hasn't and we would like representation there or at least I would.
Xaak your posting signature is a link also and not permitted.
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1 edit | reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 :Sorry Scott, I didn't see that post. All I saw was complaining that Einstein and LHC were linking back here. Look, I just want to know one thing. Why should the members of Team Starfire who wish to run Rosetta@home as a team, but not for Team Helix, be forced to go elsewhere to do so and not discuss it here? Edited for spelling. Xaak saw it and removed the association. I'm assuming since you were a member of the team he talked about it with you.
The people who quit the Rosetta team did so for personal reasons, like other people who quit other teams here. When other people quit other teams and start their own teams, we don't give them a home and a platform here. This is not different. The only thing remarkable about it is that those who quit the team are predominantly Starfire members and leaders. That doesn't entitle the rebel team to a home or a platform any more than any other rebel team.
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| reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 :Actually Justin, I agree with what you just posted 100%. I'm not taking the team anywhere. DCS is supposed to work to a common good. It's also supposed to work for the members it represents and it doesn't. Rather than beat our heads against the brick walls we left. It was hurting too much. You appointed an extra management rep to try to help us work some things out and it got nowhere which was really disappointing. We aren't taking a ball ang going home. That is a misconception. So, let's work to fix thngs. You may not be taking the team anywhere but I'm kicking it off to your site unless you guys figure stuff out and stop with the "we left" from DCS stuff. You don't have that option. Leaving DCS (or whatever the joint decision making mechanism is) means leaving the site.
Pretend the DCS is the UN security council. If you don't like something you can keep the discussion going, interminably if you must, but meanwhile you don't go putting troops on the border, or annexing another country. You certainly don't storm out and resign the chair.
If a team here wants to remain here, instead of withering offsite with no links, then it has to act like it is here. And by the way, this means no replacement offsite forums or invitations for disgruntled members to sign up there to chat out of the loop. And it means no team creation/renaming/destruction decisions not sanctioned.
As far as I can see, you've got some stuff to fix up, remove, replace, reverse. |
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Xaak
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| reply to justin
We're not asking anyone to rehome anywhere. It's an alternative place to discuss projects that aren't official here. Nobody, to my knowledge, has made a specific suggestion to move the seti team anywhere, as much as Hank would like everyone to believe.
But frankly, the DCS has become a ruling body, and is taking actions without consulting the members that those things affect, and even trying to prohibit a team's own reps from discussing those things. Take the Rosetta team. Not a single member of that team was consulted about the adoption, even though members of 2 different teams suggested it. The adopting team refused.
Sorry, Justin, but the DCS is broken as it stands now. You can continue to try and run it, or maybe it can be fixed.
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Xaak
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join:2002-06-19 | reply to fatness
No, I just changed it at the time. And I changed it back. |
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| reply to Xaak
The DCS works fine in my view. It just hasn't given you everything you want. Nor any other team. The other teams don't have a problem with that.
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HFB1217
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2 edits | reply to fatness
said by fatness :Xaak saw it and removed the association. I'm assuming since you were a member of the team he talked about it with you. I think not.
said by Xaak :No, I just changed it at the time. And I changed it back. --
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Xaak
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1 edit | reply to justin
said by justin :Pretend the DCS is the UN security council. The UN security council, as well as the entire UN is broken too, and completely ineffective. Interesting you'd choose that as an analogy for the DCS.
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jons
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I promised that I'd refrain from additional posting until things cleared up a bit, but I would like to make my voice heard on this as a lot more has happened.
For the record, I agree 100% with what Justin has said in this thread. This doesn't mean that I disagree completely with everything that others want to accomplish, or feel they cannot accomplish, or whatever. It means that if I find him completely reasonable, then it is guaranteed that others of Team Starfire do as well. All that that means is that we have one heck of a lot of problems to fix before anything gets better.
It seems pretty clear that if Team Starfire wants to remain, in it's current form, then we must have DCS representation, and we must be willing to compromise. Is that not clear? If there are a few people hell-bent on fighting this to the death, then please, please, please remove yourselves from Team Starfire and go play elsewhere. |
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72245156
TSWB.org
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| reply to 72245156
I guess I rambled too much to be understood. Either that or someone is going to great lengths to make that happen. I'd rather think the former. 
All I was saying is that Team Starfire's members make the team. And all of ths seems to gotten way too complicated.
BBR.com is our home. Time for everyone to take a breather. And make it work here.
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