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2 edits | reply to 72245156
Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job
said by 72245156  : Team Starfire's members are the ones who decide what Team Starfire does. Not me, not the forum hosts, not an advisory group and not management. Our members decide what we do. This is something I lost sight of and found tonight. Glad you mentioned this, because where is the vote that showed that members want to take the entire team offsite?
What I want and what most members want is clubs here that enjoy their efforts, and get along. With multiple clubs that entails some joint decision-making. You quit DCS because you think it is broken. Unfortunately YOU GUYS have to make it work, there is no alternative: making it work means not getting your own way over some things, for some of the time. Other teams also will not get their way over some things as well. You're supposed to be working for common good, not doing this thing to be competitive to a fault, to compare numbers for the sake of the numbers.
In taking your ball and going home (if this is my understanding of what you are doing) u are discounting the long LONG history dslreports.com has in supporting seti/stargfire and ignoring that 90+% of the team recruits found and joined the team here and that most of the WU history of the team is from members no longer active who were very happy crunching on-site and had no beef with the site.
Instead of working with the site (via the DCS) or simply leaving to find a differnet team more agreeable to you, or nominating other members of starfire who CAN work with the DCS, you're taking this accumulated good-will, and all members, and trying to transfer it off-site.
Your idea that people can run SETI here, then avoid anything inconvenient by hopping over to the Starfire site where you hold 100% of the vote and don't have to deal with any other teams, isn't going to happen.
The team was built almost entirely via support of & recruitment from members of dslreports.com over the years. I was one of the first members of it, and have done what little I could to keep it powered up.
In my view, and bear in mind I'm late into this decision so I might be missing something - The RIGHT thing is for you and anyone else who feels strongly about DCS to resign and start your own team, on your own site, and invite any members who wish to join it. I'd even let you have a free window of publicity for that choice. The WRONG thing to do would be to take advantage of your position - as holders of a seti team creation password - and unilaterally move all members, whether they like it or not, over to their new site, and new name (which by necessity will lack any association here).
One way or another I have to maintain a SETI forum and team here, but can't do it as a mere feeder for your personal enterprise.
Any team that is only willing to treat dslreports.com as a place to get a free forum, bandwidth and member flow, can have no home here, no ongoing flow of new members to recruit from, no links, no news, no traffic. It'll have to survive by itself. I'm not sure any large scale distributed computing has grown fast on its own merits, entirely divorced from a larger supporting community that promotes it. Teams spring from communities, teams don't make communities.
Starting a team from scratch without a community is very difficult, stealing an existing team and renaming and rehoming it spoils its history and trajectory, destroys its future too - as it stalls out in recruitment - and disrespects efforts of those PAST members (including me) no longer around and in the loop to object, who crunched and banked units for starfire-dslreports, not starfire-ron.
I re-iterate, a much better way to have done this would be you and your friends who supposedly represents the desires of the WHOLE team start up a new damn team, and hope that members can be attracted over based on the new teams merits, stats, and leadership. If you are right, you'll get your members, if you are wrong, you won't and it'll fail. But perhaps doing things that way is too much like hard work?
Or you could also ask for a vote that requires high participation from members and puts forward the proposition to all members "do we go it alone or not", if that vote came back as 70% positive to your proposal, versus staying on-site and working things out, then you could take the team history and name with some honor. |
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join:2002-06-19 | Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? |
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justin
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| said by Xaak :Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? It is the consequence of building an external site, with forums, and inviting members who crunch for starfire to re-home there - apparently because starfire itself abdicates from the DCS, or states that it cannot and will not work with the DCS.
We can't have a team associated with dslreports.com that is not prepared to engage in some joint decision making with other teams. If there is an external forum for a team, controlled by the people who control the name of the team at seti, then it has moved itself offsite!
Please correct me if anything above is wrong. The whole distributed computing thing has become complicated and with a lot of he-said she-said - but this is my understanding of the problems so far. Is there not external forums and an external home for starfire? |
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1 edit | reply to justin
Actually Justin, I agree with what you just posted 100%. I'm not taking the team anywhere.
DCS is supposed to work to a common good. It's also supposed to work for the members it represents and it doesn't. Rather than beat our heads against the brick walls we left. It was hurting too much.
You appointed an extra management rep to try to help us work some things out and it got nowhere which was really disappointing.
We aren't taking a ball and going home. That is a misconception. So, let's work to fix things.
Edited for spelling.
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justin
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| said by 72245156 :Actually Justin, I agree with what you just posted 100%. I'm not taking the team anywhere. DCS is supposed to work to a common good. It's also supposed to work for the members it represents and it doesn't. Rather than beat our heads against the brick walls we left. It was hurting too much. You appointed an extra management rep to try to help us work some things out and it got nowhere which was really disappointing. We aren't taking a ball ang going home. That is a misconception. So, let's work to fix thngs. You may not be taking the team anywhere but I'm kicking it off to your site unless you guys figure stuff out and stop with the "we left" from DCS stuff. You don't have that option. Leaving DCS (or whatever the joint decision making mechanism is) means leaving the site.
Pretend the DCS is the UN security council. If you don't like something you can keep the discussion going, interminably if you must, but meanwhile you don't go putting troops on the border, or annexing another country. You certainly don't storm out and resign the chair.
If a team here wants to remain here, instead of withering offsite with no links, then it has to act like it is here. And by the way, this means no replacement offsite forums or invitations for disgruntled members to sign up there to chat out of the loop. And it means no team creation/renaming/destruction decisions not sanctioned.
As far as I can see, you've got some stuff to fix up, remove, replace, reverse. |
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Xaak
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| reply to justin
We're not asking anyone to rehome anywhere. It's an alternative place to discuss projects that aren't official here. Nobody, to my knowledge, has made a specific suggestion to move the seti team anywhere, as much as Hank would like everyone to believe.
But frankly, the DCS has become a ruling body, and is taking actions without consulting the members that those things affect, and even trying to prohibit a team's own reps from discussing those things. Take the Rosetta team. Not a single member of that team was consulted about the adoption, even though members of 2 different teams suggested it. The adopting team refused.
Sorry, Justin, but the DCS is broken as it stands now. You can continue to try and run it, or maybe it can be fixed.
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| The DCS works fine in my view. It just hasn't given you everything you want. Nor any other team. The other teams don't have a problem with that.
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Xaak
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1 edit | reply to justin
said by justin :Pretend the DCS is the UN security council. The UN security council, as well as the entire UN is broken too, and completely ineffective. Interesting you'd choose that as an analogy for the DCS.
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jons
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| reply to justin
I promised that I'd refrain from additional posting until things cleared up a bit, but I would like to make my voice heard on this as a lot more has happened.
For the record, I agree 100% with what Justin has said in this thread. This doesn't mean that I disagree completely with everything that others want to accomplish, or feel they cannot accomplish, or whatever. It means that if I find him completely reasonable, then it is guaranteed that others of Team Starfire do as well. All that that means is that we have one heck of a lot of problems to fix before anything gets better.
It seems pretty clear that if Team Starfire wants to remain, in it's current form, then we must have DCS representation, and we must be willing to compromise. Is that not clear? If there are a few people hell-bent on fighting this to the death, then please, please, please remove yourselves from Team Starfire and go play elsewhere. |
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| reply to Xaak
said by Xaak :We're not asking anyone to rehome anywhere. It's an alternative place to discuss projects that aren't official here. Nobody, to my knowledge, has made a specific suggestion to move the seti team anywhere, as much as Hank would like everyone to believe. I have a problem with the words
* Alternative
* Discuss
* projects that are not official
When they are put together.
Why is this a surprise to you?
If you want to setup alternative non-official projects, and discuss them on some external vbulletin board, BE MY GUEST, you can even mention them from time to time here, but you can't use the glow of the seti forum and the starfire name to build membership within them! this means: they have to stand on their own merits, have their own name, be on their own domain name, and good luck to all who sail upon them.
Naming something "starfire Xaak Rosetta done our way" and hosting it right next to the starfire stats pages, and discussing it in some offsite starfire page forums, is the same in my book as naming the project "dslreports.com Rosetta II". |
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| reply to fatness
said by fatness :The DCS works fine in my view. It just hasn't given you everything you want. Nor any other team. The other teams don't have a problem with that. With all due respect, you changed the DCS, you tasked the DCS, and you run the DCS. Perhaps you're too close to the situation to be completely objective in that matter. Perhaps you can't see it from a team members point of view, where things seem to get dictated to them from on high by the DCS.
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72245156
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| reply to justin
Why not just have all sanctioned BBR.com teams named BBR. com without team names then? That would solve so many problems Justin. That is part of the current problem. Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team wants to crunch for BBR, just not with Team Helix.
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| reply to Xaak
Xaak, I'd like to thank you for letting your team membership see exactly how their rep conducted himself in DCS. Argue everything, dispute everything, change opinions and re-argue, re-dispute, fight on after decisions are discussed and made.
Thank you.
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| reply to justin
Well, this in response to your first post in this thread justin , what you say in it is 100% spot on, no disputing that, but nobody is taking/has taken the ball and gone home. I won't say yet either, because that's not something that should ever have to be done.
From my personal viewpoint, no trying to speak for others here, but I think one of the major issues I have needs to be addressed, so here goes...
I have a question to put to you, and to the various reps of the DCS, if a project receives site approval, and a version of that project is available for BOINC, why should I have to go to Team Helix, or Team Discovery or whoever decides that project is part of their bailiwick?
I want to crunch BOINC projects under the BBR/DSLR name, but I don't want to have to join one of the other teams to do so. Why can't Starfire run it alongside the other team? It will have no impact on the other teams, because I will not run it for them anyhow, the science will still get done, and that's all that should matter to them if they are true to their claims, it just won't be done under their banner.
All I'm asking for is a simple answer.
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Xaak
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You're welcome. And thank you for showing how it works too. Ignore the issues and questions, and attack the messenger.
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1 edit | reply to justin
Fair enough. Then we need an alternative. I don't want to disucss rosetta in the Helix forum. I don't want to be a part of Helix. Any posts about Rosetta in the boinc forum get moved to the Helix forum. I want to crunch rosetta with my teammates, who have been made to feel unwelcome in the Helix forum. Yes, I'd like to crunch for a team with BBR on it, but not for Helix. I was told I'd have to "conform to their culture or go someplace else" or something similar to that.
What's your suggestion?
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mig
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| reply to 72245156
said by 72245156 :Why not just have all sanctioned BBR.com teams named BBR. com without team names then? That would solve so many problems Justin. That is part of the current problem. Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team wants to crunch for BBR, just not with Team Helix. I have stayed out of this and will continue to except for one statement here by you Kinguni.
I am one of those "Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team", and I do wish to crunch Rosetta@Home under Team Helix. They are already folding & unfolding proteins, Rosetta is predicting the structure of proteins. It is medical based and it should be, in my opinion only, a project that belongs to either Team Helix or Team Discovery if they so want it, which I believe they do.
I would certainly hope that cooler heads will prevail here, but I must go on record now as saying that all of this has really bothered me, and I have stayed out of it as my direction is now only medical projects.
That being said, I would hope that Team Starfire stays and either rejoins the DCS or let another group represent the Team in the DCS. You can't really believe that no representation will help Team Starfire. Not everyone gets what they want. Please allow some cooling off and reconsider what is actually best for all of Team Starfire.
I noticed all of the Rosetta@Home members leaving last month and that bothered me some, but as long as you all are still crunching it that's all right by me. Because in this area it's really not points, it's getting as many as possible to crunch to help facillitate the finding of cures.
This almost makes me wish BOINC had never been developed and that we were still doing Seti classic. |
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| reply to MarkH
quote:
I want to crunch BOINC projects under the BBR/DSLR name, but I don't want to have to join one of the other teams to do so. Why can't Starfire run it alongside the other team? It will have no impact on the other teams, because I will not run it for them anyhow, the science will still get done, and that's all that should matter to them if they are true to their claims, it just won't be done under their banner.
That sounds an awful lot like what I was thinking. WHY NOT INDEED?
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said by mig :I am one of those "Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team", and I do wish to crunch Rosetta@Home under Team Helix. They are already folding & unfolding proteins, Rosetta is predicting the structure of proteins. It is medical based and it should be, in my opinion only, a project that belongs to either Team Helix or Team Discovery if they so want it, which I believe they do. That is how R@H was proposed to the DCS. Its medical based and in the words of Xaak,a perfect fit for either Helix or Discovery. Sadly,after R@H was approved,that all changed and it was suddenly not good for either team and members supposedly started feeling "unwelcome".
Thankfully,many new members have found us and are happy doing the R@H project under the Helix banner and I expect we will contiue to see membership grow in the days to come. Its a terrific project and were glad to be a part of it! |
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| said by Icarus :That is how R@H was proposed to the DCS. Its medical based and in the words of Xaak,a perfect fit for either Helix or Discovery. Sadly,after R@H was approved,that all changed and it was suddenly not good for either team and members supposedly started feeling "unwelcome".
Are those the words of Xaak, or are they just what you are claiming, are they paraphrased or a direct quote? Either way I hope they aren't from the DCS because whats said in there is sacred and not for outsiders as I understand it.
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