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2 edits | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by 72245156  : Team Starfire's members are the ones who decide what Team Starfire does. Not me, not the forum hosts, not an advisory group and not management. Our members decide what we do. This is something I lost sight of and found tonight. Glad you mentioned this, because where is the vote that showed that members want to take the entire team offsite?
What I want and what most members want is clubs here that enjoy their efforts, and get along. With multiple clubs that entails some joint decision-making. You quit DCS because you think it is broken. Unfortunately YOU GUYS have to make it work, there is no alternative: making it work means not getting your own way over some things, for some of the time. Other teams also will not get their way over some things as well. You're supposed to be working for common good, not doing this thing to be competitive to a fault, to compare numbers for the sake of the numbers.
In taking your ball and going home (if this is my understanding of what you are doing) u are discounting the long LONG history dslreports.com has in supporting seti/stargfire and ignoring that 90+% of the team recruits found and joined the team here and that most of the WU history of the team is from members no longer active who were very happy crunching on-site and had no beef with the site.
Instead of working with the site (via the DCS) or simply leaving to find a differnet team more agreeable to you, or nominating other members of starfire who CAN work with the DCS, you're taking this accumulated good-will, and all members, and trying to transfer it off-site.
Your idea that people can run SETI here, then avoid anything inconvenient by hopping over to the Starfire site where you hold 100% of the vote and don't have to deal with any other teams, isn't going to happen.
The team was built almost entirely via support of & recruitment from members of dslreports.com over the years. I was one of the first members of it, and have done what little I could to keep it powered up.
In my view, and bear in mind I'm late into this decision so I might be missing something - The RIGHT thing is for you and anyone else who feels strongly about DCS to resign and start your own team, on your own site, and invite any members who wish to join it. I'd even let you have a free window of publicity for that choice. The WRONG thing to do would be to take advantage of your position - as holders of a seti team creation password - and unilaterally move all members, whether they like it or not, over to their new site, and new name (which by necessity will lack any association here).
One way or another I have to maintain a SETI forum and team here, but can't do it as a mere feeder for your personal enterprise.
Any team that is only willing to treat dslreports.com as a place to get a free forum, bandwidth and member flow, can have no home here, no ongoing flow of new members to recruit from, no links, no news, no traffic. It'll have to survive by itself. I'm not sure any large scale distributed computing has grown fast on its own merits, entirely divorced from a larger supporting community that promotes it. Teams spring from communities, teams don't make communities.
Starting a team from scratch without a community is very difficult, stealing an existing team and renaming and rehoming it spoils its history and trajectory, destroys its future too - as it stalls out in recruitment - and disrespects efforts of those PAST members (including me) no longer around and in the loop to object, who crunched and banked units for starfire-dslreports, not starfire-ron.
I re-iterate, a much better way to have done this would be you and your friends who supposedly represents the desires of the WHOLE team start up a new damn team, and hope that members can be attracted over based on the new teams merits, stats, and leadership. If you are right, you'll get your members, if you are wrong, you won't and it'll fail. But perhaps doing things that way is too much like hard work?
Or you could also ask for a vote that requires high participation from members and puts forward the proposition to all members "do we go it alone or not", if that vote came back as 70% positive to your proposal, versus staying on-site and working things out, then you could take the team history and name with some honor. | |
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join:2002-06-19 | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? | |
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justin
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by Xaak :Who the hell ever said we're taking the seti team offsite? It is the consequence of building an external site, with forums, and inviting members who crunch for starfire to re-home there - apparently because starfire itself abdicates from the DCS, or states that it cannot and will not work with the DCS.
We can't have a team associated with dslreports.com that is not prepared to engage in some joint decision making with other teams. If there is an external forum for a team, controlled by the people who control the name of the team at seti, then it has moved itself offsite!
Please correct me if anything above is wrong. The whole distributed computing thing has become complicated and with a lot of he-said she-said - but this is my understanding of the problems so far. Is there not external forums and an external home for starfire? | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job We're not asking anyone to rehome anywhere. It's an alternative place to discuss projects that aren't official here. Nobody, to my knowledge, has made a specific suggestion to move the seti team anywhere, as much as Hank would like everyone to believe.
But frankly, the DCS has become a ruling body, and is taking actions without consulting the members that those things affect, and even trying to prohibit a team's own reps from discussing those things. Take the Rosetta team. Not a single member of that team was consulted about the adoption, even though members of 2 different teams suggested it. The adopting team refused.
Sorry, Justin, but the DCS is broken as it stands now. You can continue to try and run it, or maybe it can be fixed.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by fatness :The DCS works fine in my view. It just hasn't given you everything you want. Nor any other team. The other teams don't have a problem with that. With all due respect, you changed the DCS, you tasked the DCS, and you run the DCS. Perhaps you're too close to the situation to be completely objective in that matter. Perhaps you can't see it from a team members point of view, where things seem to get dictated to them from on high by the DCS.
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join:2002-06-19 | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job You're welcome. And thank you for showing how it works too. Ignore the issues and questions, and attack the messenger.
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| said by Xaak :We're not asking anyone to rehome anywhere. It's an alternative place to discuss projects that aren't official here. Nobody, to my knowledge, has made a specific suggestion to move the seti team anywhere, as much as Hank would like everyone to believe. I have a problem with the words
* Alternative
* Discuss
* projects that are not official
When they are put together.
Why is this a surprise to you?
If you want to setup alternative non-official projects, and discuss them on some external vbulletin board, BE MY GUEST, you can even mention them from time to time here, but you can't use the glow of the seti forum and the starfire name to build membership within them! this means: they have to stand on their own merits, have their own name, be on their own domain name, and good luck to all who sail upon them.
Naming something "starfire Xaak Rosetta done our way" and hosting it right next to the starfire stats pages, and discussing it in some offsite starfire page forums, is the same in my book as naming the project "dslreports.com Rosetta II". | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job Why not just have all sanctioned BBR.com teams named BBR. com without team names then? That would solve so many problems Justin. That is part of the current problem. Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team wants to crunch for BBR, just not with Team Helix.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by 72245156 :Why not just have all sanctioned BBR.com teams named BBR. com without team names then? That would solve so many problems Justin. That is part of the current problem. Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team wants to crunch for BBR, just not with Team Helix. I have stayed out of this and will continue to except for one statement here by you Kinguni.
I am one of those "Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team", and I do wish to crunch Rosetta@Home under Team Helix. They are already folding & unfolding proteins, Rosetta is predicting the structure of proteins. It is medical based and it should be, in my opinion only, a project that belongs to either Team Helix or Team Discovery if they so want it, which I believe they do.
I would certainly hope that cooler heads will prevail here, but I must go on record now as saying that all of this has really bothered me, and I have stayed out of it as my direction is now only medical projects.
That being said, I would hope that Team Starfire stays and either rejoins the DCS or let another group represent the Team in the DCS. You can't really believe that no representation will help Team Starfire. Not everyone gets what they want. Please allow some cooling off and reconsider what is actually best for all of Team Starfire.
I noticed all of the Rosetta@Home members leaving last month and that bothered me some, but as long as you all are still crunching it that's all right by me. Because in this area it's really not points, it's getting as many as possible to crunch to help facillitate the finding of cures.
This almost makes me wish BOINC had never been developed and that we were still doing Seti classic. | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by mig :I am one of those "Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team", and I do wish to crunch Rosetta@Home under Team Helix. They are already folding & unfolding proteins, Rosetta is predicting the structure of proteins. It is medical based and it should be, in my opinion only, a project that belongs to either Team Helix or Team Discovery if they so want it, which I believe they do. That is how R@H was proposed to the DCS. Its medical based and in the words of Xaak,a perfect fit for either Helix or Discovery. Sadly,after R@H was approved,that all changed and it was suddenly not good for either team and members supposedly started feeling "unwelcome".
Thankfully,many new members have found us and are happy doing the R@H project under the Helix banner and I expect we will contiue to see membership grow in the days to come. Its a terrific project and were glad to be a part of it! | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by Icarus :That is how R@H was proposed to the DCS. Its medical based and in the words of Xaak,a perfect fit for either Helix or Discovery. Sadly,after R@H was approved,that all changed and it was suddenly not good for either team and members supposedly started feeling "unwelcome".
Are those the words of Xaak, or are they just what you are claiming, are they paraphrased or a direct quote? Either way I hope they aren't from the DCS because whats said in there is sacred and not for outsiders as I understand it.
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clubs: | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job Xaak made that intention known to all in a public forum, Mark
You can find it here | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by lilhurricane :Xaak made that intention known to all in a public forum, Mark You can find it here
Thank you. 
Now if only my other question could be answered.
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| said by lilhurricane :Xaak made that intention known to all in a public forum, Mark You can find it here Sorry, you're leaving out a big, big part of the picture.
We came to an agreement as to scope after that. Specific scope. A DCS member from your own team brought up the opinion that since Rosetta was in fact a project to improve a software program, and not doing medical research, that it didn't fit within helix's scope, or Discovery's for that matter. His argument made sense to me, and I agreed, as well as I believe 2 other members of your team's dcs contingent.
All of this occured before the thread asking that Rosetta be made official.
So your account of things is a bit less than accurate, to say the least.
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join:2002-06-19 | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job So do your half truths. | |
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| said by Icarus :said by mig :I am one of those "Everyone on that "other" Rosetta team", and I do wish to crunch Rosetta@Home under Team Helix. They are already folding & unfolding proteins, Rosetta is predicting the structure of proteins. It is medical based and it should be, in my opinion only, a project that belongs to either Team Helix or Team Discovery if they so want it, which I believe they do. That is how R@H was proposed to the DCS. Its medical based and in the words of Xaak,a perfect fit for either Helix or Discovery. Sadly,after R@H was approved,that all changed and it was suddenly not good for either team and members supposedly started feeling "unwelcome". Thankfully,many new members have found us and are happy doing the R@H project under the Helix banner and I expect we will contiue to see membership grow in the days to come. Its a terrific project and were glad to be a part of it! No, it was a full week before Rosetta was even brought up for approval. Although I don't have access to the DCS anymore, I believe I have an offline archive I can dig into if anyone need to verify it.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by jons :Just for the record here, I am a loyal Starfire member who also crunches Rosetta for Team Helix. And for the life of me, I don't know why certain Starfire members feel such animosity towards the Helix folks! If there's a legitimate reason, I'd probably like to know it, but I've felt nothing but a warm welcome from TH. I was a part of the "unofficial" Rosetta team when there were fewer than 20 people on it, and I was happy to see it become official. Now everyone seems to be saying they want to crunch for a DSLR/BBR-based Rosetta team. Um, guess what? There is one! I don't know anything of what goes on in DCS, but I remember the call for DSLR adoption of an official Rosetta team. I remember the discussion and hope that it be picked up by "one of the medical-based teams." It was! What's the big deal? Now I crunch Seti for Starfire and Rosetta for Helix. I even get 2 little twirly things by my name! 
At this stage when things have gone so far, do reasons really matter...
Don't take that the wrong way, I just mean does the who, where, when, what and why really matter now?
There are obviously strong feelings by various people on the subject of who they crunch for, what harm is there in letting them crunch under whatever team name they want at BBR, as long as the project has been sanctioned by BBR and no attempt is made to pull people away from the projects 'official' team?
Ultimately what should matter is that the science gets done, and hopefully gets done under the BBR banner, rather than forcing those people, who for whatever reason do not wish to be members of Discovery, Helix or even Starfire to go crunch elsewhere.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by MarkH :At this stage when things have gone so far, do reasons really matter... Don't take that the wrong way, I just mean does the who, where, when, what and why really matter now? There are obviously strong feelings by various people on the subject of who they crunch for, what harm is there in letting them crunch under whatever team name they want at BBR, as long as the project has been sanctioned by BBR and no attempt is made to pull people away from the projects 'official' team? Ultimately what should matter is that the science gets done, and hopefully gets done under the BBR banner, rather than forcing those people, who for whatever reason do not wish to be members of Discovery, Helix or even Starfire to go crunch elsewhere. Thank you, Mark - and that was really my point. Right now, I don't care much about the reasons people have for not wanting to crunch under the Team Helix banner. What I do care about is just as you said: crunching under a BBR-sanctioned project, and making sure the science gets done.
I appreciate the fact that strong feelings exist, but if those are truly the priorities, then both are currently happening. They just happen to be taking place under the name Team Helix rather than Team Starfire. I really don't believe that anyone is being forced to crunch elsewhere.
It is not my intention to belittle the pride of anyone involved, or to attack personally. Obviously there is some strong anger over things that have been said or done. But I also believe that, in the end, we all have pretty much the same goals here. In all that's been said, it seems to me that the DC community at DSLR/BBR is strong indeed. If we're willing to work together, we can accomplish some amazing things.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by jons :Thank you, Mark - and that was really my point. Right now, I don't care much about the reasons people have for not wanting to crunch under the Team Helix banner. What I do care about is just as you said: crunching under a BBR-sanctioned project, and making sure the science gets done. I appreciate the fact that strong feelings exist, but if those are truly the priorities, then both are currently happening. They just happen to be taking place under the name Team Helix rather than Team Starfire. I really don't believe that anyone is being forced to crunch elsewhere. It is not my intention to belittle the pride of anyone involved, or to attack personally. Obviously there is some strong anger over things that have been said or done. But I also believe that, in the end, we all have pretty much the same goals here. In all that's been said, it seems to me that the DC community at DSLR/BBR is strong indeed. If we're willing to work together, we can accomplish some amazing things. Jon
Well said...
One question though, not that I want to draw things out further, but what of those people who do feel marginalised and aren't crunching things under the BBR banner due to them not wanting to join one of the other teams?
The science is mainly being done under the BBR banner, but I know there others who would be likely to jump on-board if they could crunch under any name but Helix/Discovery/Starfire.*
If a simple compromise can be found to even say let them have their own team, under it's own name, but say point the url on that teams project page to the 'official' teams forum, and ask them to keep all discussion of the project in the 'official' teams forum, where would be the harm in that? It gives both sides something IMO, it gives the people who currently feel marginalised a choice, and it gives the official team recognition, and further promotion from the referring url by people who otherwise have been crunching off site.
This isn't something I'm asking for just for Team Starfire either, the same would be applicable to all teams who wanted to do the same, that way an even playing field is provided.
*Delete team name as appropriate.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job I would have to strongly disagree with your idea, only because in my mind you have it backwards. (and I think several others would agree)
I would be fine running Rosetta under the name Helix, if it could be discussed either in the StarFire or Boinc forums. Not saying one is right or one is wrong, but the Helix forum has a very different feel than what I am used to, and what I prefer. My objection to the way things have gone down is only that we can't discuss the project in the forum(s) we are comfortable in.
I have brought this idea to our DCS rep, waiting for a reply.
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job said by Camelot One :I would have to strongly disagree with your idea, only because in my mind you have it backwards. (and I think several others would agree) I would be fine running Rosetta under the name Helix, if it could be discussed either in the StarFire or Boinc forums. Not saying one is right or one is wrong, but the Helix forum has a very different feel than what I am used to, and what I prefer. My objection to the way things have gone down is only that we can't discuss the project in the forum(s) we are comfortable in. I have brought this idea to our DCS rep, waiting for a reply.
I'm not bothered which way round it occurs, I just want to see all the bitching and infighting stop.
Either way is good, all I care about is taking the focus away from the current situation and let us carry on crunching and having fun.
I just stated what I thought could be one solution.
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clubs: | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job I think you are moving in the right direction. | |
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job Well, I think we are getting off topic, but just so its out there....
The forums are run differently. It is not a member issue, and I'm not suggesting Helix is run in a bad way. Just differently. For me the forum is home, and it needs to be a place I am comfortable. I am comfortable in StarFire and Boinc, I am not in Helix.
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1 edit | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job never mind | |
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4 edits | said by Camelot One :Well, I think we are getting off topic, but just so its out there.... The forums are run differently. It is not a member issue, and I'm not suggesting Helix is run in a bad way. Just differently. For me the forum is home, and it needs to be a place I am comfortable. I am comfortable in StarFire and Boinc, I am not in Helix. Ok, the problem is not as much as of not wanting to be a part of the other teams, it’s about posting problems, questions, jokes and hanging around the people in the Team Starfire forum. Ok, look at it this way. This is from the TV sitcom Cheers Theme:
“Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
And they're always glad you came;
You want to be where you can see,
Our troubles are all the same;
You want to be where everybody knows your name”
However, there are other considerations to take into factor. The Seti@home forum alone was a crowded forum to begin with (not over crowded but had a large group of people). By this I mean there was fair amount of post to read daily. Adding the other projects, it added even more posts than before. I believe that some people find the extra number of threads generated by the new BOINC projects to be over whelming; and as such they feel the need for those projects to have a home of their own. But because there are already dedicated forums to the other causes, some feel there is no need to create two forums for the same cause. Such as crunching for a cure for cancer; some feel one forum is enough. But that goes back to wanting to post threads where their favorite people post threads. | |
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clubs: | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job And I have no objection to the projects having a home. Just to the issue of those threads not being permitted outside that home. | |
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| I do agree with where you're coming from (assuming I've understood it correctly!  ). Personally, I like the discussions that seem to take place within Team Helix. It's still a new place for me to adjust to, but I don't have a problem with visiting more than one forum, and getting to know more people. The Starfire forum will probably always be my (main) home, though. I enjoy the humor, the camaraderie, the rivalries, the people, and everything else!
As I've mentioned before, I don't necessarily disagree with everything "the 10" want to achieve. In fact, I'm probably more in line with those thoughts than most people realize. I know than not every DC project will use BOINC, and I see no reason for that to happen - but I would like to see a unified BOINC presense under the general DSLR/BBR banner, regardless of team orientation. I don't know the best way to achieve that, but I don't see why someone can't crunch Seti, Rosetta, and Einstein, Fold, etc. - heck, run every BOINC and non-BOINC project out there! But still visit their favorite forum and post where they want to post. Or maybe visit their team's forum for fun, and post regarding the specific project in another place, like you said. It's obviously going to be more of a concern for those of us who BOINC, because those who do not are not really affected in the same way.
Right now I think there are many people who Fold for Team Helix, crunch Seti for Starfire, etc. It was never an issue before - people had membership in multiple teams all the time! That's why I don't have a problem with it now.
Again, my biggest issue with all that's happened here lately is over how things were done, and over the fact that most Team Starfire members were not consulted
before hand. There was talk when BOINC came out about moving Team Starfire away from DSLR, and I would have followed if everyone felt it had to be done. I'd have still visited DSLR all the time, because it has so much to offer and has been a main Internet stopping point for me for years. Obviously the DSLR association is a good one for Team Starfire, though. I hope we can all come to an agreement and understanding that is beneficial for everyone. | |
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join:2002-12-19 | Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job I'm sure things can be settled to the satisfaction of all, and I hope it is done soon.
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1 edit | Fair enough. Then we need an alternative. I don't want to disucss rosetta in the Helix forum. I don't want to be a part of Helix. Any posts about Rosetta in the boinc forum get moved to the Helix forum. I want to crunch rosetta with my teammates, who have been made to feel unwelcome in the Helix forum. Yes, I'd like to crunch for a team with BBR on it, but not for Helix. I was told I'd have to "conform to their culture or go someplace else" or something similar to that.
What's your suggestion?
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1 edit | Actually Justin, I agree with what you just posted 100%. I'm not taking the team anywhere.
DCS is supposed to work to a common good. It's also supposed to work for the members it represents and it doesn't. Rather than beat our heads against the brick walls we left. It was hurting too much.
You appointed an extra management rep to try to help us work some things out and it got nowhere which was really disappointing.
We aren't taking a ball and going home. That is a misconception. So, let's work to fix things.
Edited for spelling.
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| Well, this in response to your first post in this thread justin , what you say in it is 100% spot on, no disputing that, but nobody is taking/has taken the ball and gone home. I won't say yet either, because that's not something that should ever have to be done.
From my personal viewpoint, no trying to speak for others here, but I think one of the major issues I have needs to be addressed, so here goes...
I have a question to put to you, and to the various reps of the DCS, if a project receives site approval, and a version of that project is available for BOINC, why should I have to go to Team Helix, or Team Discovery or whoever decides that project is part of their bailiwick?
I want to crunch BOINC projects under the BBR/DSLR name, but I don't want to have to join one of the other teams to do so. Why can't Starfire run it alongside the other team? It will have no impact on the other teams, because I will not run it for them anyhow, the science will still get done, and that's all that should matter to them if they are true to their claims, it just won't be done under their banner.
All I'm asking for is a simple answer.
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paul myers
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| Re: The Biggest Problem With My Job quote:
I want to crunch BOINC projects under the BBR/DSLR name, but I don't want to have to join one of the other teams to do so. Why can't Starfire run it alongside the other team? It will have no impact on the other teams, because I will not run it for them anyhow, the science will still get done, and that's all that should matter to them if they are true to their claims, it just won't be done under their banner.
That sounds an awful lot like what I was thinking. WHY NOT INDEED?
Paul Myers
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