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steve1515
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Peabody, MA
 ·Speakeasy
| Whole House Surge Protector? I've looked at whole house surge protectors and am wondering how they work. All the manuals I've read say that all you need to do is connect them to circuit breakers on each bus (and neutral & ground). I don't see how this could protect anything. Wouldn't the surge go out to every circuit?
Can someone explain how these things work? | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
| said by steve1515  :I don't see how this could protect anything. Wouldn't the surge go out to every circuit? Can someone explain how these things work? They work by either shunting the surge across the hots or shorting the surge to ground. The theory of operation is the surge protector takes the brunt of the surge until it either the surge clears or opens a protective device (fuse/breaker) ahead of the surge protector isolating all downstream equipment from the source of the surge.
This is one of the reasons the first line surge protector should be installed at the service entrance. Then if needed secondary protectors can be installed on branch circuits as required. Try to stop the surge ahead of the point where it enters the building and before internal distribution.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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no_one
| It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is? | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by no_one :
It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is?
As Wayne said, it shorts across the hot e.g 230VAC or to ground. The ground is provided courtesy of your power company. | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by no_one :
It needs a very good earth ground to work properly.
How does one measure how good the earth ground is?
I use a Megger it's an older unit but works just fine.
»www.megger.com/us/story/Index.php?ID=125
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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no_one
| Yes and no. The ground is at the service meter I believe usually. Installed by the builder at construction time. The utility may approve it but things happen over the years. is there a way to test it?
The utility does have other grounds on its system but this is the one the whole house would use I think. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| On this topic, I found a decent, inexpensive Intermatic surge protector at Home Depot this week. It's rated for 60KA surge suppression capacity and protects both legs of 240vac. There are two green LEDs, indicating each 120v leg energized, and a red LED for when the unit has been sacrified to a lightning hit. $39 each at HD is cheap insurance for everything in the house.
Even though my computers, music synths, etc, are all powered by a 3kVA UPS, which is running off a Sola CVS installed on that circuit, my sound system is too big for a UPS or a Sola of any manageable size, and our other major appliances are also not on the 'clean' circuit. So the Intermatic unit appears to be a good piece of insurance in this stormy summer.
I am most familiar with the Islatran units we use in broadcast transmission facilities, and from what I can tell, this little Intermatic unit is just about as good. The Islatrans have MOV protectors, inside 3x4x6" plastic boxes, mounted in a 2 cu ft NEMA box and sell for about a grand. The specs are probably similar.
I highly recommend this little gem from Home Depot. CHeap insurance!
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
inexpensive Intermatic surge protector at Home Depot this week. It's rated for 60KA surge suppression capacity and protects both legs of 240vac
Use caution in relaying on these little things.
First of all 60kA abs max is a bit low, and surge spec (I^2)t rating is not included. Also the connecting wires are too thin.
MOV elements are not expensive, and using bus rails and wide Cu straps you can construct a high rating inexpensive suppressor.
By the way the best location is the socket under the electric meter. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? Yes, 60KA is not a huge amount of protection, but for $39, it's way better than no protection.
I took issue with the wire size too, which is why I mounted mine as close as possible to the main ckt breaker and cut the wires to the shortest possible length to make a direct run to the breaker pair and ground bus.
Ideally, the best place to clamp is outside the building, but that's a costly affair. A spark gap is ideal for direct hits, but you also need a lower clamp voltage for the benefit of reducing the spike amplitude that sensitive equipment may endure.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
| | | |
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by 91439306 :I took issue with the wire size too, which is why I mounted mine as close as possible to the main ckt breaker and cut the wires to the shortest possible length to make a direct run to the breaker pair and ground bus. You don't want that device on the main breaker. If goes into a hard fault it needs a breaker that sized to the unit per the instructions to trip and not become a fire hazard.
Example the IG1240RC wants either two 15 or 20 amp breakers.
»www.intermatic.com/images/instru···40RC.pdf
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? Did I say that I connected it to the main breaker? No. I said I placed it as close as possible, so that the wire length would be as short as possible, and that the protection is at the main breaker end of the panel, ahead of the rest of the breakers. The instructions called for a dual 20A breaker for its connection to the panel, which I used.
The EFI surge protector certainly is functionally great, however, I have two issues with it:
1. when it fails, how do you know it's failed (LED? Where?)
2. probably requires an elecrician to install and replace every time it takes a hit and sacrifices itself.
If anyone can answer to the two issues above, then I'd be more apt to look into it.
In forty years at this address, we have never had even one ac powered device fail due to lightning down a power line, however, I am not taking chances with the sheer quantity of costly equipment I have in service in my studio, not to mention the wife's new washing machine, with all its computerized wizardry. We're fortunate to have a good electrical drop (albeit somewhat inadequate to power my stereo to full power, but that's an extreme situation) as far as surge hazards and while neighbors to either side of us regularly lose TVs, well pumps and stereos during storms, for some reason, we have had none of that. Perhaps it's due to the pole pigs on either side of us--we're isolate from both ends of the power line.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by 91439306 :1. when it fails, how do you know it's failed (LED? Where?)
What’s the model? On the IG1240RC which is a common consumer model if either green light is out or the red light is on the unit is pooched another is by smell.
I had a 1240 go hard fault after a power company transformer failure. I ended up with two breakers tripped the main and the branch circuit the 1240 is on In addition to that there was a pungent odor of electronics turned to smoke emitting from somewhere around the breaker panel.
After transferring to generator and determining the power companies transformer was off-line (the cutout was laying in my yard again) I left the main (mine) open and reset the branch circuit. Instantly the generator loaded up the breaker tripped and another puff of smoke emitted from the 1240 reminding me not to do that again.
2. probably requires an elecrician to install and replace every time it takes a hit and sacrifices itself. If you wired it you should be able to replace it.
not to mention the wife's new washing machine, with all its computerized wizardry. I have a single 1240 on the utility room circuit due to in part an LG washer in there. Very nice machine low power and water consumption but will all of it’s electronic magic it cannot recover from a simple power failure I ended up putting an APC UPS on it to compensate for our power companies lack of reliability.
BTW Intermatic replaced the toasted unit no charge.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the Intermatic. I was referring to the EFI model that installs at the utility meter. I believe that requires an electrician to install. And after a surge happens, say, when you're at work, the smoke would be long gone and I wonder how you would determine whether the unit is still protecting. If you reread my two points, I think you'll be able to answer those questions.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
| | |
SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| said by electric6 :
Use caution in relaying on these little things.
First of all 60kA abs max is a bit low, and surge spec (I^2)t rating is not included. Also the connecting wires are too thin.
MOV elements are not expensive, and using bus rails and wide Cu straps you can construct a high rating inexpensive suppressor.
By the way the best location is the socket under the electric meter.
60KA per leg is in the middle to high end of the recommended range for 220V residential service.
The wire size doesn't bother me if it's kept short. It's going through the breaker which is probably going to have more effect on the response than the wire. One could certainly construct their own but I'm not sure how that would sit with the NEC and your insurance company.
The meter box may be an ideal location, however opening it up to add a couple of MOV's would probably be against code and fairly dangerous. I believe MOV's when hooked to the mains require a "protection" device to prevent a shorted or burning MOV hanging on the main feed.
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My computer has more memory than I do!
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by SparkChaser :The meter box may be an ideal location, however opening it up to add a couple of MOV's would probably be against code and fairly dangerous. I believe MOV's when hooked to the mains require a "protection" device to prevent a shorted or burning MOV hanging on the main feed. Use the correct product and you should have no problem.
»www.efinet.com/index.php?mode=pr···ly_id=36
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA | Re: Whole House Surge Protector? That's a nice solution, Wayne! Definitely the way to do a meter.
Ron | |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart?
it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart).
also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there?
if you just want to use one to protect the whole house, do you need a whole house breaker? we don't have either a mechanical switch OR a master breaker between the mains and any of the branch breakers. sucks for self wiring. i've wondered if i could have the power company come put in at least a master switch for free.... cause if they won't do it, then i'd just rather replace the whole thing to make room for stuff like the surge protection and a better organized distribution of power.
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? I chose to install one dedicated dual 20a breaker for mine. You could add multiple units, but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off.
Residential power is split-phase (single phase) 240.
At work, I work with mostly 3-phase power for radio and television transmitters. There are three separate phase angles, not one half of the same phase as with residential power.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by 91439306 : but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off. the problem i have with not piggybacking, if i understand everything correctly, is that if the power company is futzing with stuff, hits you with one surge that take out your protection, then you are completely unprotected when (not if) they hit you with a second surge as they put everything back together.
having the breaker go when the protector goes seems safer, unless you think that that kind of pop would cause significant damage to wound motors and such (should as long as there is a ground path, right?).
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? Breakers work in this application because of the crest factor with spikes--it's extremely high and ckt breakers can handle momentary spikes many, many times their rated hold capacity. A spike will probably not trip the breaker. The breaker would definately trip if the transient suppressor were to fail in the shorted mode. That would be a continuous high current load (a short circuit) and the breaker would do its job.
Case in point, my sound racks have multiple 20A breakers. Each breaker has a QSC Powerlight amplifier running off it. The amplifier can draw 95 amperes if driven to full power. A short musical burst at full power won't trip the 20A breaker, but if the program is too dense and unrelenting, the breakers will trip in seconds. The lights dim rather scarily when it's cranked up very loud, but the breakers hold because the crest factor is over 9dB, nearly a ten to one power ratio, so the average current at the breaker is under 20A and everyone is happy.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! | |
| | | | | | nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
| said by jig :when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart? it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart). also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there? if you just want to use one to protect the whole house, do you need a whole house breaker? we don't have either a mechanical switch OR a master breaker between the mains and any of the branch breakers. sucks for self wiring. i've wondered if i could have the power company come put in at least a master switch for free.... cause if they won't do it, then i'd just rather replace the whole thing to make room for stuff like the surge protection and a better organized distribution of power. You need a master breaker. | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by jig :also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there? In my case the primary surge protector is an older Joslyn model is bridged on the load side of the main breaker at my service entrance panel. The secondary surge protectors are bridged on the load side of the breaker on the circuit they protect.
The idea is to cascade the protection if the surge knocks down one wall maybe the next will block it.
The only step to raise that level would be to replace the main breaker with equally rated fuses.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by jig :when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart? it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart). Residential 2 hot 1 neutral 120/240 service is considered single phase.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs: 
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
·AT&T Southeast
| Actually, steve1515, I have posted the below link about 1/2 dozen times here at DSLR trying to spread the word, I used to install a different brand of these when I worked as an electrician way back in the day:
»www.deltasurgeprotectors.com/
They are "passive" devices, therefore they don't actually consume electricty or turn on/off per se. They work somewhat like a valve that shorts the spikes, surges, and transients **Directly** to your ground stake or ground loop of your house. You want to have a VERY GOOD ground stake implanted for these to work most optimally.
IMHO, EVERY residence in the USA should have these, by law! As a juiceman, I saw a few different houses that burned partially or completely down due to lightning, saw homes with lots of damaged electonics and appliances INCLUDING refridgerstors and things with motors, and so on. I became really convinced of these products after seeing what the *can* prevent.
Keep in mind that surge protectors, some types (most?) depend upon the ground lead to protect your electronics. But what happens when the lightning bolt flows down your service drop from the pole, or across the underground line at the ground level transformer (yet, IT DOES HAPPEN, and I have seen terrible aftermaths!) and flows along BOTH Service legs of 120VAC AND the Neutral, which is terminated to ground in your electrical panel?
That is where these protectors come in. You MUST buy the four+lead models (if you have a non-120VAC run to, as some homes do around the country, you will need one specifically for that as well). There will be a lead for each of the two hot 120VAC leads, one for the Neutral, and one that runs ***DIRECTLY*** to ground, rather than to the ground bus of the panel.
I VERY strongly urge all homeowners and any renter possible to install these three items.
Oh, and BTW, no, they don't produce a Cable TV product as well, and seem uninterested in making one, for some reason, as I have asked and suggested...
--
Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short. | |
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
Delta "Lightning arrestor"
3 wire single phase. 60,000 amps maximum current 2,000 joules per pole Unlimited number of surges. No leak current at double the rated voltage. PVC case material.
This appears to be just a "patented" MOV in a plastic can.
It is not a lightning arrestor, it is only a transient voltage surge suppressor.
The thin little wires instead direct mount on the bus bars do not inspire confidence either.
The main reason for using a whole house surge protector is to clamp surges at the entrance. Secondary surge protectors will then be subjected to much lower surges and will clamp at a lower voltage, thus offering better protection to the end user equipment.
The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT | Re: Whole House Surge Protector? I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? | |
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by 91439306 :I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? I think this is an issue with any MOV based surge protector, whether or not it has LED indicator lights showing the protection circuit is working or not. The problem lies with the fact that the damage that occurs inside an MOV is *accumulative*, so depending on how much/many surge events the MOV has been hit with, you may be on the last legs of what the surge protector can perform, so perhaps the last hit (even a small one) can cause damage to the equipment it is supposed to protect! No LED indicator I know of will tell you that the MOV is almost at the end of it's life and that you're at greater risk.
The moral of the story, if you're using MOV based surge protectors to protect your house/equipment, replace them with some frequency (perhaps every few years), the 10 year old surge protector you have kicing around may very well be just an expensive power strip as far as a surge is concerned! 
As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty! | |
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See 18 replies to this post | |
| | | | Relkin
join:2006-03-05
nightmare | Our utility company here offers a whole house surge protection service. It covers cable, phone, and electric. For the electric they use one of the meter mounted units and it had two red leds on the bottom of the unit to indicate it was functional. | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by 91439306 :I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? »www.efinet.com/pdfs/wi_hg.pdf
I would say by this it does
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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surged
@sbcglobal.net
| The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal.
If many neighborhood transformers takes a hit, as it does when there is a heatwave, getting a truck roll could take many days. It would be a different truck roll than the transformer replacement crew too. If one breaks the seal out of desperation, that could cause billing disputes with the utility. | |
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See 12 replies to this post | |
no_one
 from:
signmeuptoo
| A meter mount arrestor where you pull the meter is not a homeowner install. The meter has no fusing so well an error and it will just sit there frying.
Setting and replacing a meter is not rocket science yet an untrained homeowner should not do this. | |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| hmm.well, the best surge protection ever, and best noise reduction system, is to have 1 motor and 1 generator per phase and a really heavy yet very well balanced and bearing'd flywheel in-between. some mechanical replacement parts over time, and you might lose a motor now and again, but nothing bad from the power company ever gets through.
anyway. to be clear, when these surge protectors go, they short to ground in a way that pops the circuit breaker they are associated with, including if they are tied to the house breaker?
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin | |
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
I'm considering getting one of those big-ass isolation transformers and putting it in the line between the meter base/disconnect and the inside panel.
The ultraisolation transformer works best with higher frequency noise, not the low frequency surges and sags you probably see.
A more effective solution is to use a full on line UPS rather than the APC cheapos with mechanical relays. | |
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alphapointe
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
clubs:
·Mediacom
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? Are those the ones where the inverter runs all the time and the load runs off the battery with the battery being constantly charged with no direct connection between load and line?
I'll have to check into that before I blow up a PA or controller.
--
Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| quote:
The word surge suppressor is sort of a misnomer (IMO). There is another term used TVS (Transient Voltage Supressor) which is closer to reality.
Just an FYI - the industry is moving away from the former 'TVSS' (transient voltage surge suppressor) terminology, to the more encompassing terminology: SPD (surge protective device). I am not really sure, but this is where things are headed. | |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs:
·Future Nine Corpor..
·AT&T Southeast
| Guys, I hope it is ok to jump in here again, I have some questions from those of you with more hands on experience and knowledge than me:
I see now that a series solution that attaches in series with a house meter exists, and is very desirable. Wouldn't it be good to have an additional line of defense such as the intermatic some of you posted or the Deltas I posted?
Also, what do you guys think about upgrading a home's grounding, what steps could and should be done to add a layer of improvement in that area.
Next question: What about telephone line and Cable TV line protection. What products are there that can install at the service entrance for each of them? I know of the delta product for the telco line, but is there anything better? And I don't know of anything for Cable TV/ Dish TV.
One more question: Isn't it true that it is very bad to have 2 MOVs protectors in series, or something to that effect? I remember reading that it is bad to have a surge protector of MOV type in series with a UPS because the UPS would be damaged if it is of a certain type. Which types of UPS would be damaged and what other types of surge protectors and UPSs are there, and do you have links explaining the technologies, because it has been many years since I have been exposed to anything on the topic.
Thanks and sorry to pepper you all with so many questions.
For now on I am going to link people to this thread when they talk about surge protection in other threads, and not just suggest the Delta branded products. This is a very informative thread, one of the best ones EVER at DSLR, but it seems there are questions left hanging here...
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Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short. | |
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See 21 replies to this post | |
whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
1 edit | quote:
So, you are saying that this is not a series device?
Don't think so, other than fuses if it has them, but I don't believe it does.
Like all other surge protectors I've seen, its goal is to 'shunt' transients to ground; hence the ground wire.
The meter-pan SPD in your link is not UL listed as a 'primary protector', but rather is listed as a 'secondary protector'. Thus it doesn't even meet the UL requirements for protecting your service entrance, although that is what the mfr wants you to think. Perhaps there is not enough room in the socket for the heavy-duty components necessary for primary protection rated equipment.
The meter pan SPD is only rated at 10kAIC short circuit current, which will violate utility company requirements if they require 20kAIC (Which could be disastrous should you have a short circuit between the meter pan and your main circuit breaker).
Better suggestion - get a 'whole house' surge protection device that attaches to a two-pole circuit breaker in your main panel board, and is rated as a 'primary protector', and thus is beefy enough to really protect your system. Square 'D' and Current Technologies make good one. And make sure your electrician keeps the wires between the panel board and the device as short as possible, ideally the length of the leads that come with the device (this is very important). Believe it or not, the gauge is not as important. Use a #6 minimum ground wire.
Square-D and Current Technology make very good whole-house SPDs:
Square-D
Current Technology | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by whizkid3 : The meter-pan SPD in your link is not UL listed as a 'primary protector', but rather is listed as a 'secondary protector'. Thus it doesn't even meet the UL requirements for protecting your service entrance, although that is what the mfr wants you to think. Well it is the same exact device Florida Power & Light is leasing to their subscribers for $8.95 per month. I got the link and model off the side of the one my next door neighbor installed.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| IMHO, Current Technology makes the best SPDs on the market. You can tell simply by their specs. I have been to a few technical presentations by them on SPDs. They have perhaps the best SPD testing lab in the country, and love to blow these things up. In the process, they have learned how to build the best.
Don't know the ansers to your questions, though. | |
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steve1515
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Peabody, MA
·Speakeasy
| I see.
So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps.
I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way.
A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff...
How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel?
If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses? | |
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by steve1515 :I see. So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps. It doesn't know anything about the operation of the system, it simply provides an elegant solution for AC power and power sequencing. In the control booth you have one of these remote control switches to turn the system on or off, which is manually controlled by the operator. It even has a key switch to prevent the custodians from cranking the system late at night!
said by steve1515 :I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. It is a standard Square D load centre, they added on the low voltage control compartment and the isolation ground compartment, but have not subtracted anything from the load centre itself (it has to meet code requirements). I have never received any complaints from electricians that they were short on neutral buss bar space.
said by steve1515 :A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff... How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel? The isolation ground systems I design follow a star topology with sub panels, so from the *main* system isolation ground buss bar, a very heavy gauge copper wire is run to the sub panel isolation ground buss bar, and from there isolation ground is routed to receptacles serviced by the sub panel. It all comes down to keeping wire resistance as low as possible.
said by steve1515 :If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses? Ultimately the isolation ground must be bonded to the neutral and building ground at *one* point, and one point only. On smaller systems, this may be the main grounding rod(s) for the entire building, on larger systems serviced by an isolation transformer, the isolation ground gets bonded to the neutral and ground at the transformer. One way or another, isolation ground must meet neutral and regular ground, but the key here is it must meet it at one point only, and that the wire resistance is as low as possible to keep the ground plane low and noise to an absolute minimum. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Whole House Surge Protector? And how! This last point is absolutely true and I had a very effective demonstration of it when I converted my sound system racks' electrical system over to 240 split phase. For kicks, I tried it with the existing 3-wire cable, but because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet, the system produced a very loud 60Hz hum when powered on.
Upon running a new 4-wire cable across the studio auditorium to the breaker panel, and isolating the grounds from eachother, the hum was vanquished. I wish I could have had the foresite to videotape that effect and include it in an expert opinion before a court, or before some of these building inspectors who insist on bonding at the outlets...
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Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
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steve1515
Premium
join:2000-08-07
Peabody, MA
1 edit | Re: Whole House Surge Protector? Ground (isolated or not) and neutral should never be bonded at the outlet. I don't think those inspectors know what they're doing. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
2 edits | quote:
How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel?
Yes. You must have a separate isolated ground bus in each sub-panel, insulated from contact with the metal panel. The isolated ground system is kept isolated except at the point where the main building grounding electrode system (your ground rods, etc) is bonded to the equipment safety ground system.
quote:
If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses?
No, you can not. You must have a separate isolated ground bus bar. Is it the same? No, not exactly.
Of course, as Arthur S. described, things are different when you have a separately derrived source (i.e. the case of the isolation transformer he discussed is one example.) | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| quote:
because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet...
This is a verybad idea. The safety ground and neutral are never to be bonded (connected together) at the outlet. They are only supposed to be bonded together at one place, the enclosure containing main disconnect switch/circuit breaker, where the grounding electrode system is also connected.
Having them connected at the outlet is a fire and an electrocution hazzard. | |
| nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
1 edit | ok.I know telephone more than power. But the builders in Phoenix hire electricians to do all. The phone well is sometimes bad on a certain crew by crew basis. If phone is bad the electric must be much worse. | |
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