Whole House Surge Protector?

Splitpair Premium join:2000-07-29 Cow Towne ·T-Mobile US	reply to ArthurS Re: Whole House Surge Protector? said by ArthurS : Be aware that the price of copper has skyrocketed recently, so heavy gauge wire that I would prefer in an isolation ground system can be rather expensive (I just had a church client flip out when they got quotes from a few electricians)! No kidding #2 stranded THHN 4kf almost $10 grand. Wayne -- If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-26 10:17:27 ·
nonymous join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ	reply to signmeuptoo No new subdivisions I know of in Phoenix has lightning protection even thou Arizona has alot of lightning. So no builder demand no electricians caring. Special jobs as cell sites etc. of course and more money. Little homeowner well ???
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-24 23:03:59 ·
nonymous join:2003-09-08 Glendale, AZ 1 edit	reply to steve1515 ok.I know telephone more than power. But the builders in Phoenix hire electricians to do all. The phone well is sometimes bad on a certain crew by crew basis. If phone is bad the electric must be much worse.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-24 22:55:41 ·
signmeuptoo Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast Premium join:2001-11-22 LOSTinSpace clubs:	reply to ArthurS Thanks. I don't own a house but this is stuff I never learned, I worked for an electrician and we did residential, but he wasn't a genius, let's put it that way... -- Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-22 04:53:49 ·
ArthurS Watch Those Blinking Lights Premium join:2000-10-28 Hamilton, ON	reply to signmeuptoo said by signmeuptoo : In that zip file, the annotation to the diagram, item #9: A question, they are talking about a three phase system there, right? So that bond/run #9 is to the Neutral Bus with the connection to the service feed? If so, then #9 doesn't apply to us in residences, right? Or does it, because I am wondering how dangerous it might be to misinterpret that and use the house neutral that way... Also, in the image you posted: I assume, as I don't know ANYTHING about Commerical electrical installations, that the reason that is called an "isolation" is becuase you are saying the the ground bus is in a totally separate compartment with the bus in it, instead of in the distribution panel? If so, you are saying that we want to get our own little box with a ground bus and make it a secondary isolated ground bus box? I am a bit unclear on what you are saying, I apologize for being so dense! No apologies necessary! The diagram I posted earlier is just a tiny detail of a much larger drawing set that is my specification for isolation ground and technical power system specifically designed for professional A/V systems that are a part of my consulting practice (think performing arts theatre, large church, concert hall, sports stadium). That said, it's assuming a commercial installation, where typically a shielded isolation transformer is being used to provide a separate technical power service complete with sequencing panel and isolation ground. I think part of the confusion here is that whenever you put a transformer for a sub panel into the equation (common in large commercial buildings), electrical code requires that your ground (both building and isolation ground) and neutral be bonded together at this point (at the transformer), then run separate conductors to the breaker (sub) panel. Your transformer in residential applications is found on the street either on a pole or in an underground vault! So depending on how things are wired up in your panel, you might have your electrical wiring coming into your house from the electrical provider, with a separate ground tied to your water pipe or separate grounding rod, with neutral and ground being bonded together according to code. That said I have a number of smaller installations where I have the electrician install an additional isolation ground buss bar within an existing electrical service panel, no extra compartment needed! The isolation of the isolation ground buss bar is achieved through insulative bushings between it and the panel/box it's physically mounted to (to keep it from shorting the isolation ground to the building ground at this point). The key here is that you don't want your isolation ground buss bar to short to building ground at the breaker panel, you only want it to be bonded to building ground (and ultimately neutral) either at the transformer (in commercial installations) or at the main service entrance grounding conductor. (Read this last sentence over and over until you have it memorized!) The breaker panel of which I attached a link to has the isolation ground buss bar in a separate enclosure (the case of which is bonded electrically to the main breaker panel case). The primary goal here is to make sure some meathead electrician doesn't mix up the grounds, and help keep things separate, neat and tidy. There is no reason why this isolation ground buss bar can't be inside the main breaker panel (or a household breaker panel) if properly installed and maintained (make sure it's insulated from the panel itself). A very heavy gauge insulated grounding conductor should be run directly from your breaker panel isolation ground bus bar and bonded to your grounding point at your service entrance. You should have the electrician make sure you have a really good grounding point at the service entrance, and not just some cheapo wire clamped to your water pipe! said by signmeuptoo : Could you create a schematic or graphic, please? Edit: So after all is said and done, these are the devices that are most advisable for a home owner to install:(?) »https://currenttechnology.com/product.xh···entGuard Thanks. If I had more time, I might be able to draw something (the drawing I posted was a simple copy and paste I did in a matter of seconds), but alas, I'm up to my eyeballs with work and a kitchen renovation this week (I promised my wife a working sink by the end of the week)! I hope with the information I provided, you can have a licensed electrician put together an isolation ground system for a residential application that meets local codes and keeps the inspector happy. Just make sure he/she knows and understands NEC 250-75 really well. Be aware that the price of copper has skyrocketed recently, so heavy gauge wire that I would prefer in an isolation ground system can be rather expensive (I just had a church client flip out when they got quotes from a few electricians)! The whole house solution from current technology seems to offer good protection.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-22 04:16:58 ·
whizkid3 Premium,MVM join:2002-02-21 Queens, NY ·Earthlink Cable Mo..	reply to steve1515 quote: because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet... This is a verybad idea. The safety ground and neutral are never to be bonded (connected together) at the outlet. They are only supposed to be bonded together at one place, the enclosure containing main disconnect switch/circuit breaker, where the grounding electrode system is also connected. Having them connected at the outlet is a fire and an electrocution hazzard.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-21 07:49:41 ·
signmeuptoo Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast Premium join:2001-11-22 LOSTinSpace clubs: ·Future Nine Corpor.. ·AT&T Southeast 1 edit	reply to ArthurS said by ArthurS : Hmmm, I would have to do a lot of digging to find pictures of completed system, but here is a great pic of a sequencing technical power panel with a separate isolation ground compartment (on the right side). For my systems I always go with a single phase three wire panel instead of the three phase panel shown. Attached you will find a detail from my technical power drawing set showing what's involved in wiring an isolation ground receptacle. In that zip file, the annotation to the diagram, item #9: A question, they are talking about a three phase system there, right? So that bond/run #9 is to the Neutral Bus with the connection to the service feed? If so, then #9 doesn't apply to us in residences, right? Or does it, because I am wondering how dangerous it might be to misinterpret that and use the house neutral that way... Also, in the image you posted: I assume, as I don't know ANYTHING about Commerical electrical installations, that the reason that is called an "isolation" is becuase you are saying the the ground bus is in a totally separate compartment with the bus in it, instead of in the distribution panel? If so, you are saying that we want to get our own little box with a ground bus and make it a secondary isolated ground bus box? I am a bit unclear on what you are saying, I apologize for being so dense! Could you create a schematic or graphic, please? Edit: So after all is said and done, these are the devices that are most advisable for a home owner to install:(?) »https://currenttechnology.com/product.xh···entGuard Thanks. -- Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-21 02:15:37 ·
whizkid3 Premium,MVM join:2002-02-21 Queens, NY ·Earthlink Cable Mo.. 2 edits	reply to steve1515 quote: How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel? Yes. You must have a separate isolated ground bus in each sub-panel, insulated from contact with the metal panel. The isolated ground system is kept isolated except at the point where the main building grounding electrode system (your ground rods, etc) is bonded to the equipment safety ground system. quote: If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses? No, you can not. You must have a separate isolated ground bus bar. Is it the same? No, not exactly. Of course, as Arthur S. described, things are different when you have a separately derrived source (i.e. the case of the isolation transformer he discussed is one example.)
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-21 01:50:13 ·
steve1515 Premium join:2000-08-07 Peabody, MA 1 edit	reply to 91439306 Ground (isolated or not) and neutral should never be bonded at the outlet. I don't think those inspectors know what they're doing.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 23:50:00 ·
91439306 15,000 Watts of Bass Power join:2002-10-16 New Milford, CT	reply to ArthurS And how! This last point is absolutely true and I had a very effective demonstration of it when I converted my sound system racks' electrical system over to 240 split phase. For kicks, I tried it with the existing 3-wire cable, but because the safety ground and neutral wires were bonded at the outlet, the system produced a very loud 60Hz hum when powered on. Upon running a new 4-wire cable across the studio auditorium to the breaker panel, and isolating the grounds from eachother, the hum was vanquished. I wish I could have had the foresite to videotape that effect and include it in an expert opinion before a court, or before some of these building inspectors who insist on bonding at the outlets... -- Take care, Mark & Mary Ann Weiss My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm '»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair '»www.mwcomms.com '»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed!
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 23:27:52 ·
ArthurS Watch Those Blinking Lights Premium join:2000-10-28 Hamilton, ON	reply to steve1515 said by steve1515 : I see. So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps. It doesn't know anything about the operation of the system, it simply provides an elegant solution for AC power and power sequencing. In the control booth you have one of these remote control switches to turn the system on or off, which is manually controlled by the operator. It even has a key switch to prevent the custodians from cranking the system late at night! said by steve1515 : I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. It is a standard Square D load centre, they added on the low voltage control compartment and the isolation ground compartment, but have not subtracted anything from the load centre itself (it has to meet code requirements). I have never received any complaints from electricians that they were short on neutral buss bar space. said by steve1515 : A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff... How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel? The isolation ground systems I design follow a star topology with sub panels, so from the main system isolation ground buss bar, a very heavy gauge copper wire is run to the sub panel isolation ground buss bar, and from there isolation ground is routed to receptacles serviced by the sub panel. It all comes down to keeping wire resistance as low as possible. said by steve1515 : If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses? Ultimately the isolation ground must be bonded to the neutral and building ground at one point, and one point only. On smaller systems, this may be the main grounding rod(s) for the entire building, on larger systems serviced by an isolation transformer, the isolation ground gets bonded to the neutral and ground at the transformer. One way or another, isolation ground must meet neutral and regular ground, but the key here is it must meet it at one point only, and that the wire resistance is as low as possible to keep the ground plane low and noise to an absolute minimum.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 11:15:13 ·
steve1515 Premium join:2000-08-07 Peabody, MA ·Speakeasy	reply to steve1515 I see. So, how do these breakers know that you turned on the mixer so that they can turn on the amps. I was looking at that panel in the picture and it looks like there are many breakers/circuits available, but there are very few terminals for neutral connections. Strange. Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way. A few more questions about the isolated ground stuff... How does it work with a sub panel? Do you still have to run the isolated ground back to the main panel even though the circuit breaker is in a sub panel? If you only have a main panel and no sub panels, can you just bond the isolated grounds to the regular ground & neutral bus? Wouldn't it be the same as having a separate one right next to it and bonding both buses?
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 01:17:40 ·
ArthurS Watch Those Blinking Lights Premium join:2000-10-28 Hamilton, ON	reply to steve1515 said by steve1515 : Cool pictures! I have a few questions... So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel? Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground? Each receptacle should have it's own separate isolation ground conductor that goes back to the panel, however if two immediately adjacent receptacles are sharing the same circuit, it is acceptable in some cases to "daisy-chain" the isolation ground conductor to another isolation ground receptacle as long as the electrician is careful to preserve the integrity of the isolation ground. said by steve1515 : In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead? What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire? Yes to both cases, and in the case of a separate non-insulated ground conductor bonded to the metal back box, it provides an extra layer of protection, and may appease the demands of an electrical inspector. I prefer the use of EMT conduit and metal boxes over plastic ones since the layer of metal helps with shielding. said by steve1515 : What's a sequencing panel? I've never seen one before. It looks like the breakers are outputting low voltage, but without a transformer. How do these things panels work? Sequencing panels are a very unique product, I use them to turn my professional audio systems on and off in a certain sequence to prevent any loud "bangs" that may ruin the loudspeakers. Mixer on first, amps on last, amps off first, mixer off last. The breakers in this panel are motorized, using a low voltage relay system (the circuit boards on the left compartment) to turn on/off each individual AC circuit breaker. Other than the "special" breakers, this is an ordinary Square-D panel with two separate side boxes attached, in fact there may be a bunch of circuits within this panel that remain on at all times, and are not part of a sequenced on/off. There are some fancy added features, including an immediate shut down when a fire alarm is activated, or a properly sequenced system turn on should power be restored after an electrical outage. You can "daisy chain" these sequencing panels with other similar panels, and remotely control them as well.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 00:52:45 ·
ArthurS Watch Those Blinking Lights Premium join:2000-10-28 Hamilton, ON	reply to SparkChaser said by SparkChaser : The purpose of this kind of system is to keep any building noise on the ground system isolated from the ground on your equipment, is that the idea? Thanks for the education Yes, that's one reason, the other is to keep all grounds at the same plane, ideally as close to the main building ground as possible. Careful management of the resistance of the ground conductor must be followed, which is why on very sensitive systems you will find a very large wire gauge (00 gauge) being used between the main isolation ground buss bar and the main grounding point. On longer runs I will insist on a large gauge wire to the receptacle. Having all your electronic equipment on the same ground plane (consider that most electronic equipment has it's chassis connected to ground) helps keep noise potential on interconnecting wiring to a minimum. This particularly holds true with professional audio and video equipment, where ground loops can be troublesome if equipment chassis are at different ground potentials.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-20 00:27:08 ·
whizkid3 Premium,MVM join:2002-02-21 Queens, NY ·Earthlink Cable Mo..	reply to steve1515 quote: Well it is the same exact device Florida Power & Light is leasing to their subscribers for $8.95 per month. I got the link and model off the side of the one my next door neighbor installed. So? Sounds like they are making a fortune. Obviously, FP&L requires only a 10KAIC rating. Still not a very good SPD for service entrance, regardless of who is selling or leasing them. said by steve1515 : So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel? Yes. Its the best way to do it, rather than daisy chaining the ckts together. You can also 'home run' the isolated grounds. quote: Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground? Yes, not the best, though. quote: In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead? Yes. You'll have to have a green wire, and a green with yellow stripe wire. (Or you can tag one of the green wires at every box with a yellow stripe.) quote: What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire? Its not unlawful. But you will lose any of the big advantages of noise reduction from having the isolated ground inside of a grounded conduit (shield).
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 13:10:17 ·
steve1515 Premium join:2000-08-07 Peabody, MA ·Speakeasy	reply to ArthurS Cool pictures! I have a few questions... So when installing isolated ground receptacles, each one must have a separate ground that goes back to the panel? Or, can you connect the isolated ground from one plug to the isolated ground of the next outlet down the line as long as you don't bond it to the regular ground? In the diagram, you're using the the metallic conduit as a regular ground. Can you just use regular cable and add a fourth wire for the regular ground instead? What about using plastic boxes and leaving out the fourth regular ground wire? What's a sequencing panel? I've never seen one before. It looks like the breakers are outputting low voltage, but without a transformer. How do these things panels work?
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 12:54:35 ·
Splitpair Premium join:2000-07-29 Cow Towne ·T-Mobile US	reply to whizkid3 said by whizkid3 : The meter-pan SPD in your link is not UL listed as a 'primary protector', but rather is listed as a 'secondary protector'. Thus it doesn't even meet the UL requirements for protecting your service entrance, although that is what the mfr wants you to think. Well it is the same exact device Florida Power & Light is leasing to their subscribers for $8.95 per month. I got the link and model off the side of the one my next door neighbor installed. Wayne -- If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 10:31:19 ·
Splitpair Premium join:2000-07-29 Cow Towne ·T-Mobile US	reply to ArthurS said by ArthurS : I have a spendy AC circuit tester that plugs into a isolation ground receptacle, I sometimes catch a few "short cuts" that a few electricians have taken in wiring up isolation ground receptacles, Isolated ground receptacles grrrrrrrr. If I had a buck for every time I caught a cub electrician bonding the isolated ground to the metallic box I would buy you all a round. But what really pisses off the Good Humor Man is when the electrical inspector red tags the work for not being bonded. Then you have two options go before the BRA and have the inspector over-ruled (maybe a 30 day process) or get the permit signed off and rip out the bonds now that's profitable. P.S. It's rumored that in Miami-Dade County they have the best inspectors money can buy so that sort of adds a third option. »www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/ne···0702.htm Wayne -- If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 10:19:25 ·
whizkid3 Premium,MVM join:2002-02-21 Queens, NY ·Earthlink Cable Mo..	reply to steve1515 IMHO, Current Technology makes the best SPDs on the market. You can tell simply by their specs. I have been to a few technical presentations by them on SPDs. They have perhaps the best SPD testing lab in the country, and love to blow these things up. In the process, they have learned how to build the best. Don't know the ansers to your questions, though.
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 09:29:16 ·
SparkChaser BURY BECK Premium join:2000-06-06 Downingtown, PA ·Verizon FIOS ·Comcast	reply to whizkid3 said by whizkid3 : Square-D and Current Technology make very good whole-house SPDs: Square-D Current Technology Wow a selenium stack! I haven't seen those in a lot of years Do you know how Current Technology is using it? I couldn't find anything on the site. Also, I wonder if their filtering affects line signaling devices like X10. Interesting link. -- My computer has more memory than I do!
	to forum · permalink · · 2006-08-19 05:54:14 ·


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