91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to jig
Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
I chose to install one dedicated dual 20a breaker for mine. You could add multiple units, but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off.
Residential power is split-phase (single phase) 240.
At work, I work with mostly 3-phase power for radio and television transmitters. There are three separate phase angles, not one half of the same phase as with residential power.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| said by 91439306  : but I don't recommend piggybacking, unless you don't mind having to track down the tripped circuit or wonder why your fridge is off. the problem i have with not piggybacking, if i understand everything correctly, is that if the power company is futzing with stuff, hits you with one surge that take out your protection, then you are completely unprotected when (not if) they hit you with a second surge as they put everything back together.
having the breaker go when the protector goes seems safer, unless you think that that kind of pop would cause significant damage to wound motors and such (should as long as there is a ground path, right?).
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Breakers work in this application because of the crest factor with spikes--it's extremely high and ckt breakers can handle momentary spikes many, many times their rated hold capacity. A spike will probably not trip the breaker. The breaker would definately trip if the transient suppressor were to fail in the shorted mode. That would be a continuous high current load (a short circuit) and the breaker would do its job.
Case in point, my sound racks have multiple 20A breakers. Each breaker has a QSC Powerlight amplifier running off it. The amplifier can draw 95 amperes if driven to full power. A short musical burst at full power won't trip the 20A breaker, but if the program is too dense and unrelenting, the breakers will trip in seconds. The lights dim rather scarily when it's cranked up very loud, but the breakers hold because the crest factor is over 9dB, nearly a ten to one power ratio, so the average current at the breaker is under 20A and everyone is happy.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! |
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nonymous
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ
| reply to jig
said by jig :when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart? it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart). also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there? if you just want to use one to protect the whole house, do you need a whole house breaker? we don't have either a mechanical switch OR a master breaker between the mains and any of the branch breakers. sucks for self wiring. i've wondered if i could have the power company come put in at least a master switch for free.... cause if they won't do it, then i'd just rather replace the whole thing to make room for stuff like the surge protection and a better organized distribution of power. You need a master breaker. |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
| reply to jig
said by jig :also, question: for you guys that have 2 or three of the 1240s installed... do you install them on the same circuit/breaker as (for example) the washing machine? so you don't actually put in a new breaker, you just piggy back on what's already there? In my case the primary surge protector is an older Joslyn model is bridged on the load side of the main breaker at my service entrance panel. The secondary surge protectors are bridged on the load side of the breaker on the circuit they protect.
The idea is to cascade the protection if the surge knocks down one wall maybe the next will block it.
The only step to raise that level would be to replace the main breaker with equally rated fuses.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to jig
said by jig :when they say single phase, does that include two phases that are 180 degrees apart? it just seems strange to offer a product for single phase at 200A. i though that the vast majority of residential service drops are 2 phase 240 (180 degrees apart). Residential 2 hot 1 neutral 120/240 service is considered single phase.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs: 
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to steve1515
Actually, steve1515, I have posted the below link about 1/2 dozen times here at DSLR trying to spread the word, I used to install a different brand of these when I worked as an electrician way back in the day:
»www.deltasurgeprotectors.com/
They are "passive" devices, therefore they don't actually consume electricty or turn on/off per se. They work somewhat like a valve that shorts the spikes, surges, and transients **Directly** to your ground stake or ground loop of your house. You want to have a VERY GOOD ground stake implanted for these to work most optimally.
IMHO, EVERY residence in the USA should have these, by law! As a juiceman, I saw a few different houses that burned partially or completely down due to lightning, saw homes with lots of damaged electonics and appliances INCLUDING refridgerstors and things with motors, and so on. I became really convinced of these products after seeing what the *can* prevent.
Keep in mind that surge protectors, some types (most?) depend upon the ground lead to protect your electronics. But what happens when the lightning bolt flows down your service drop from the pole, or across the underground line at the ground level transformer (yet, IT DOES HAPPEN, and I have seen terrible aftermaths!) and flows along BOTH Service legs of 120VAC AND the Neutral, which is terminated to ground in your electrical panel?
That is where these protectors come in. You MUST buy the four+lead models (if you have a non-120VAC run to, as some homes do around the country, you will need one specifically for that as well). There will be a lead for each of the two hot 120VAC leads, one for the Neutral, and one that runs ***DIRECTLY*** to ground, rather than to the ground bus of the panel.
I VERY strongly urge all homeowners and any renter possible to install these three items.
Oh, and BTW, no, they don't produce a Cable TV product as well, and seem uninterested in making one, for some reason, as I have asked and suggested...
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Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short. |
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
|
Delta "Lightning arrestor"
3 wire single phase. 60,000 amps maximum current 2,000 joules per pole Unlimited number of surges. No leak current at double the rated voltage. PVC case material.
This appears to be just a "patented" MOV in a plastic can.
It is not a lightning arrestor, it is only a transient voltage surge suppressor.
The thin little wires instead direct mount on the bus bars do not inspire confidence either.
The main reason for using a whole house surge protector is to clamp surges at the entrance. Secondary surge protectors will then be subjected to much lower surges and will clamp at a lower voltage, thus offering better protection to the end user equipment.
The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal. |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs:
·Future Nine Corpor..
·AT&T Southeast
| Yuppers, MUCH more expensive to install, as a homeowner can actually install the ones I pointed out. I didn't know that the type you are talking about were available for residences. Do you have models and weblinks, by any chance?
Thanks.
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Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short. |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT | I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? |
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no_one
 from:
signmeuptoo
| reply to steve1515
A meter mount arrestor where you pull the meter is not a homeowner install. The meter has no fusing so well an error and it will just sit there frying.
Setting and replacing a meter is not rocket science yet an untrained homeowner should not do this. |
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| reply to 91439306
said by 91439306 :I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? I think this is an issue with any MOV based surge protector, whether or not it has LED indicator lights showing the protection circuit is working or not. The problem lies with the fact that the damage that occurs inside an MOV is *accumulative*, so depending on how much/many surge events the MOV has been hit with, you may be on the last legs of what the surge protector can perform, so perhaps the last hit (even a small one) can cause damage to the equipment it is supposed to protect! No LED indicator I know of will tell you that the MOV is almost at the end of it's life and that you're at greater risk.
The moral of the story, if you're using MOV based surge protectors to protect your house/equipment, replace them with some frequency (perhaps every few years), the 10 year old surge protector you have kicing around may very well be just an expensive power strip as far as a surge is concerned! 
As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty! |
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Relkin
join:2006-03-05
nightmare | reply to 91439306
Our utility company here offers a whole house surge protection service. It covers cable, phone, and electric. For the electric they use one of the meter mounted units and it had two red leds on the bottom of the unit to indicate it was functional. |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to 91439306
said by 91439306 :I still haven't found out how the meter-mounted surge arrestor indicates it's functional condition. If it takes a big enough hit and is no longer functional, by what means does the owner determine whether it's replacement time? »www.efinet.com/pdfs/wi_hg.pdf
I would say by this it does
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to ArthurS
Very good advice about the MOV-based protectors, however, the Surge-X products are not 'whole house' arrestors, so they don't really fit into the scheme of things here. Although they are an excellent choice for downline protection of critical pieces of equipment, or perhaps to protect a branch circuit. |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| reply to steve1515
hmm.well, the best surge protection ever, and best noise reduction system, is to have 1 motor and 1 generator per phase and a really heavy yet very well balanced and bearing'd flywheel in-between. some mechanical replacement parts over time, and you might lose a motor now and again, but nothing bad from the power company ever gets through.
anyway. to be clear, when these surge protectors go, they short to ground in a way that pops the circuit breaker they are associated with, including if they are tied to the house breaker?
--
A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin |
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dervari
join:2000-01-17
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
1 edit | reply to Splitpair
I called Georgia Power and they said they would have no problems with me having this device installed. I would just have to arrange a time for one of their people to come out and pull the breaker on the pole and unseal the meter. I have a shooting buddy that's a licensed electrician and he said it would take about 10 minutes to install. I did find somewhere that sells them to consumers for $179 with a 7 day lead time for orders.
»www.omnicontrols.com/lists/Efi-H···VSS.html
I'm going to be ordering one when I get back in-town.  |
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surged
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to electric6
The meter socket version is the most effective and simplest to use. It can be installed or replaced by a complete idiot in seconds.
The only drawback is the truck roll by the utility to replace the meter seal.
If many neighborhood transformers takes a hit, as it does when there is a heatwave, getting a truck roll could take many days. It would be a different truck roll than the transformer replacement crew too. If one breaks the seal out of desperation, that could cause billing disputes with the utility. |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| the service still works when the meter socket protection is burned out? so really you're just waiting to get protected again, not to get power back, right?
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A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law. -Ben Franklin |
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surged
@sbcglobal.net | reply to surged
I should clarify that the above reply is in the context of needing to replace the under meter surge protector if fried by a transformer outage |
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