91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to surged
Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
I think that quite a few major disadvantages of the meter socket arrestor have been brought up here and are as I thought. If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk.
The user replaceable version that ties to the panel at least can be maintained regularly.
While a motor generator combo offers isolation, it is also costly to operate and noisy.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! |
|
dervari
join:2000-01-17
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| said by 91439306  :If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk. How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement? |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
| said by dervari :How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement? My guess is if it took a hit that bad the utility company will be showing up anyhow to replace some of their equipment. Anyhow worst case would be open the main cut the meter seal pull the surge protector replace the meter and power back up. Then have the utility reseal the meter and maybe have a new surge protector there waiting on them.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to ArthurS
said by ArthurS :As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty! One problem I see is they do not seem to have anything over twenty amps which is not too practical for protecting an entire structures electrical system.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| They say they want the equipment close to the protected device.
I think another reason is that if you are trying to do this series mode protection on a 200A service you'll need some "industrial strength" semiconductors and inductors  |
|
ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| reply to Splitpair
said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS :As an alternative, you may want to consider using surge protectors that are not MOV based, that use a non-destructive protection technology to keep equipment safe. Expensive yes, but I have yet to find a failed device in the 8 years I have been specifying/using them in mission critical systems, some in areas where electrical storms can be very nasty! One problem I see is they do not seem to have anything over twenty amps which is not too practical for protecting an entire structures electrical system. Wayne Surgex does not have whole house products, particularly because the series mode technology used by Surgex is a feed through protection device, whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. Read Surgex's white papers on the differences, they're huge (particularly the one written by Neil Muncy, a world reknown authority on technical power). Besides the big problem of MOV's being a component that loses it's effectiveness after sustaining enough surges, note that shunt based protection puts the surge on the ground and/or neutral conductors, potentially providing another path for the surge to enter equipment and causing damage!
While everyone is entitled to their opinions on the validity of one approach vs another approach, I personally favour series mode protection, furthermore it is my belief that protection at the equipment end is a better albeit more expensive approach than the "12 gauge shotgun" approach of a whole house surge protector. Just another point of view to muddy the waters here!  |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| Surgex does not have whole house products, particularly because the series mode technology used by Surgex is a feed through protection device, whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. Ok then that would be excellent at the point of use if proper grounding was available. Still I would want a whole home unit at the service entrance.
said by ArthurS : whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. A number use solid state surge protectors with MOV as a failsafe backup. The solid state unit takes the bulk of the hits and is monitored that is backed by a crowbar which can handle a few cycles and then the MOV’s come into play for the hard crosses to power that sometimes follow a severe hit. By that time the surge protector has done it job it is shot and will indicate such a condition.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS : Surgex does not have whole house products, particularly because the series mode technology used by Surgex is a feed through protection device, whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. Ok then that would be excellent at the point of use if proper grounding was available. Still I would want a whole home unit at the service entrance. Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)!
said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS : whereas whole house protectors use MOVs in an attempt to shunt surges to ground or neutral. A number use solid state surge protectors with MOV as a failsafe backup. The solid state unit takes the bulk of the hits and is monitored that is backed by a crowbar which can handle a few cycles and then the MOV’s come into play for the hard crosses to power that sometimes follow a severe hit. By that time the surge protector has done it job it is shot and will indicate such a condition. Wayne Despite the many flavours of how these devices are constructed, they still depend on destructive technology, of which you spin the roulette wheel hoping that the protected equipment does not sustain damage should you be very close to the end of life of your surge protector and it's unable to clamp down on the surge completely. Apart from the plume of smoke from a humongous "hit", how do you know the condition of your surge protector apart from looking at the indicator lights? More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel! The power strip kind sits on the floor under your desk, perhaps hidden from view. IMHO, a false sense of security!
Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage. This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders!  |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| said by ArthurS :Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)! I understand series mode and while it is not the end all of surge protection it can be counted as a piece in the puzzle.
As for not having proper grounding I totally disagree as proper grounding and bonding are key components to a good surge protection system.
More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel! Like the engine under the hood it pays to open it up once in awhile and check to be sure all is ok.
Many units such as the Joslyn I installed on my service entrance have in addition to the LED indicators have relays that can be wired to a remote alarm or indicator very handy for use in an un-attended applications such as remote transmitter sites.
Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage. Not with proper bonding.
This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders!
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS :Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)! I understand series mode and while it is not the end all of surge protection it can be counted as a piece in the puzzle. As for not having proper grounding I totally disagree as proper grounding and bonding are key components to a good surge protection system. For a regular shunt mode surge protector, yes proper grounding and bonding are absolutely crucial, but for series mode it isn't, because the surge is slowly released over the neutral conductor, the ground is completely untouched by the surge (this is not to say that safety grounding of equipment can be avoided):
»www.surgex.com/library/32001.html
said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS : More than likely the whole house protector will be out of sight, out of mind, hidden in a closet or basement, only to be seen when a breaker blows on your service panel! Like the engine under the hood it pays to open it up once in awhile and check to be sure all is ok. Many units such as the Joslyn I installed on my service entrance have in addition to the LED indicators have relays that can be wired to a remote alarm or indicator very handy for use in an un-attended applications such as remote transmitter sites. For those in the know checking protection circuits is standard and regular procedure, but for an average user the only time they typically check is when they smell something burning! Funny how UPS's have a buzzer that beeps during power failure, yet most surge protector manufacturer don't have a similar sounding device when it requires replacement. Good to see the Joslyn has a contact closure for this purpose!
said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS : Besides this, the ground still gets polluted by this "shunted" surge, thus any other equipment that shares the same ground potential may sustain damage. Not with proper bonding. If all equipment plugged directly into the whole-house-surge-protected-breaker-panel (within a a few feet), then yes, your statement regarding bonding is true and applicable. Plug an additional shunt mode surge protector anywhere in the house on a branch circuit far enough away, and now you're dealing with wire resistance to your ground bonding point, hence the potential for elevating the ground plane when a surge is shunted to ground. Add to this any interconnections between equipment, how chassis are grounded between said equipment, and now you have a mess on your hands. Study some of the research that Henry Ott has produced on this.
Furthermore, get a sufficient enough surge happening (lighting strike close by), and all bets are off on how it behaves and what path it finds to ground (path of least resistance). Then again, a direct strike (or one immediately adjacent to house or building) will bypass any protection you have in place (you say power cable, speaker wire, ethernet cable, etc., lightning says "antenna" for thousands of volts of inducted energy)! You are better off just unplugging things!
said by Splitpair :said by ArthurS : This reason alone is a significant factor why most surge protector warranty claims are declined by the manufacturers. The moment your computer or TV is hooked up to any other device that has a ground, your warranty becomes invalid according to the manufacturer of the surge protector. Nice loophole to appease the shareholders! I wouldn’t bother with a surge protector equipment warranty they are all fluff and no action. Wayne You and I agree definitely on this one! |
|
91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to dervari
said by dervari :said by 91439306 :If you have to call the utility company every time it takes a hit, you're not protected for days, and with daily severe thunderstorms, you're at risk. How many times are you actually going to get a hit that would completely knock it out and require a replacement? It depends on the location and the utility system in that area. At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage. No sooner do we replace the MOV units in the Islatran, then another storm hits that very night and takes out not only the MOVs, but the HV rectifier bank in the Harris transmitter. Multiple hits DO happen, and if you're in an area with a history for this, then you need to be concerned about rapid replacement of your protective devices.
Personally, I'd like to see big 'ol spark gaps as a first line of protection, like we have on end fed AM towers.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
My Kurzweil Music at: '»www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
'»www.basspig.com Bass Pig's Lair
'»www.mwcomms.com
'»www.adventuresinanimemusic.com Stereo Feed! |
|
91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to ArthurS
I agree that series mode protection is superior to shunt mode, however, the practicality of installing one of these on EVERY power outlet in a home or business needs consideration.
My approach is to use a shunt at the mains panel, and series protection on critical devices upon which a large investment exists, or which are critical to business function. |
|
ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| said by 91439306 :My approach is to use a shunt at the mains panel, and series protection on critical devices upon which a large investment exists, or which are critical to business function. A wise and cost effective plan, though get a shunt at the main panel that has a contact closure to a warning light/buzzer telling you when it needs servicing like the one mentioned above.  |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to 91439306
said by 91439306 :It depends on the location and the utility system in that area. At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage. You hit a good one with location.
I work with a number of sites here in SFL that take direct hits on a regular basis yet we suffer little damage and I believe that is due to the fact that here we work with a rather conductive soil close to the underground water.
While we may be in the lightning capitol of the U.S. we also have one of the best grounding conditions an engineer could ask for.
Multiple hits DO happen, and if you're in an area with a history for this, then you need to be concerned about rapid replacement of your protective devices. You have that right after getting a e-mail I logged into a system and noticed we lost two mods in a Nautel got kicked out and after logging back in it was three. Zap zap and zap again. Hello Nautel.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to ArthurS
Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)!
Somebody at SurgeX is seriously confused.
The snippets of pseudo science are not very helpful.
MOVs do not shunt any surges, but rather clamp voltage and dissipate energy by conducting the surge current. The surge energy is measured in I^t, not voltage.
A basic single center tapped phase service surge protector consists of three MOVs, one from each side to ground, and one across the ends. This arrangement clamps differential and common mode voltage.
It does not "redirect" surges.
MOV is basically a mesh of diodes which partially short after a big surge. Failure mode is a short. Normally there is a disconnect fuse which disconnects service when the MOV shorts. The fuse limits I^t and prevents vaporizing the MOV by unlimited current. |
|
electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to 91439306
Personally, I'd like to see big 'ol spark gaps as a first line of protection, like we have on end fed AM towers.
A spark gap is the primary protective device used by utilities. A spark gap will limit direct lightning hit to several kV on the line, which is expected to be clamped by end user equipment.
If you are frequently loosing MOVs, you need to spec a bigger size.
For best results specify multilayer MOVs, which have a better defined clamp voltage, and can dissipate more energy for the same size compared to std bulk MOVs. |
|
ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
1 edit | reply to electric6
said by electric6 :
Study the principles behind series mode protection, a ground is *not* necessary at the equipment end for proper protection using a series mode device (and can prove to be an advantage in older homes that do not have grounded receptacles)!
Somebody at SurgeX is seriously confused. The snippets of pseudo science are not very helpful. MOVs do not shunt any surges, but rather clamp voltage and dissipate energy by conducting the surge current. The surge energy is measured in I^t, not voltage. A basic single center tapped phase service surge protector consists of three MOVs, one from each side to ground, and one across the ends. This arrangement clamps differential and common mode voltage. It does not "redirect" surges. MOV is basically a mesh of diodes which partially short after a big surge. Failure mode is a short. Normally there is a disconnect fuse which disconnects service when the MOV shorts. The fuse limits I^t and prevents vaporizing the MOV by unlimited current. Exactly what pseudo science are you referring to on the Surgex site? Some of the white papers are written by some of the brightest in the industry, Neil Muncy for one is an independent consultant, is world re-known in the field of technical power, and openly embraces this technology, if there is anyone who would smell a hint of BS, it would be him (and I have known him for many years).
If surge energy is not measured in voltage, then why does IEEE/ANSI C62.41-1991 quantify power protection standards using voltage (and current)?
In one paragraph you say MOV's clamps voltage and dissipates energy, yet the next paragraph you say the arrangement of MOV's clamps differential and common mode voltage, yet it doesn't redirect surges. So where does all that energy go while the MOV remains active in the circuit?
There may be a disconnect fuse on a few surge protector designs, but I also have seen plenty of vapourized MOV's!
Oh, and how about identifying yourself as a regular user and not anon? |
|
dervari
join:2000-01-17
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to 91439306
said by 91439306 : At one of my client radio stations, the transmitter site took multiple hits in July, with thousands in equipment damage. No sooner do we replace the MOV units in the Islatran, then another storm hits that very night and takes out not only the MOVs, but the HV rectifier bank in the Harris transmitter. Multiple hits DO happen, Where was the actual hit at? Seems to be a transmitter site with a 100' steel tower would be more at risk than a residence. |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to electric6
said by electric6 :
A spark gap is the primary protective device used by utilities. A spark gap will limit direct lightning hit to several kV on the line, which is expected to be clamped by end user equipment. Spark gaps have a tendency to not self extinguish at distribution voltage levels and above as such MOV's based units are the most popular surge protectors used by utilities.
The actual MOV's used in 7.6/13.2 Kv distribution are round about the size of a hockey puck (3.5" wide x 1.5" high) and are stacked under pressure from a stainless steel spring inside a rather heavy duty ceramic or silicone/fiberglass tube.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
·T-Mobile US
| reply to dervari
said by dervari :Seems to be a transmitter site with a 100' steel tower would be more at risk than a residence. Actually while the chances of being hit are greater the chances of damage can be considerably lower due to the proper grounding and bonding that can be found at a properly engineered transmitter site vs. the average home.
»Well Grounded PCS Site.
Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician. |
|
