91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| reply to Splitpair
Re: Whole House Surge Protector?
Indeed, location is a huge factor. Even where I live, both of my nearest neighbors suffer catastrophic damage to appliances almost yearly, while we, in 40 years, have had none at all. I'm attributing this to the two transformers on either side of our lot. We're isolated from the neighbors, interestingly enough and are the only home on that short stretch of line.
We have a high water table, even though we're mountaintop, so ground conductivity is pretty good here too, but so do the neighbors. But I've always believed in multiple layers of protection because I have far too much invested in rare, somewhat hard to replace electronics.
One of the issues with solid state transmitters is the fact that PA modules can and do fail with these hits. I had an Energy Onix 300W PA fail at a translator site not long ago, and upon inspection, it was a solder joint that lifted off the airline trace at the output of the PA combiner. I resoldered it and the amp worked fine after that.
Spark Gaps:
gas tubes are another possible aid in this challenge. They are used in some pretty heavy surge suppression applications and are reusable to a great extent.
However, I'd like to have spark gaps at the entrance to the building's utility line, as additional protection in case of a direct hit on the line.
The MOVs we're losing at the station are a rather expensive 3-phase Islatran unit, which was purchased by the station a few years ago and installed by an electrician. While there is a lot of room in the large NEMA box for larger devices, Islatran only makes certain replacements for this unit.
The actual hits seem to come in via power and phone lines. One particular summer, two of three phases burned up on the Islatran protection modules for those phases. Anything that hits the 300' tower, goes staight into the ground, as it's a grounded FM tower. We lose a lot of Burk ARC 16 dialup voice units as well as the 2 wire dedicated modems. We finally added an optical isolator for the phone lines and that's a much less expensive sacrificial lamb.
The station was originally built in 1982 by a couple of fanatical engineers, one who was an Avionics engineer at Sikorsky and they used textbook engineering practices for wiring and grounding. The entire building has copper strapping round the whole structure, tied to a common ground that everything else is tied to. The location is just fraught with power problems. Probably a long run of lines with no transformers nearby to absorb the brunt of the shock.
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alphapointe
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
clubs:
 ·Mediacom
| reply to steve1515
I have a repeater site just outside of town that is plagued by power problems (very long line with no transformers.) I have the meter-socket protector, a whole-house protector in the service panel, and APC UPS's in the rack. All coax cables have protectors on them, obviously. I still get power issues. The UPS's are showing lots of noise and spikes from the power line. I'm considering getting one of those big-ass isolation transformers and putting it in the line between the meter base/disconnect and the inside panel. What do you all think?
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Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current. |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| reply to electric6
said by electric6 :
Somebody at SurgeX is seriously confused.
The snippets of pseudo science are not very helpful. I’m not sure what documents you are calling pseudo science. As with any literature, one has to consider the source and any bias. It is after all a business.
said by electric6 :
MOVs do not shunt any surges, but rather clamp voltage and dissipate energy by conducting the surge current. The surge energy is measured in I^t, not voltage. A basic single center tapped phase service surge protector consists of three MOVs, one from each side to ground, and one across the ends. This arrangement clamps differential and common mode voltage. It does not "redirect" surges Would you define I^t for me, are you trying to say Joules? While energy is definitely dissipated in the MOV, as with all electric circuits, it is 2 wires and if a 500 amp pulse is on the hot phase and goes “through” the MOV it is going to be present on the neutral/ground. This current and ground resistance will cause a voltage.
said by electric6 :
MOV is basically a mesh of diodes which partially short after a big surge. Failure mode is a short. Normally there is a disconnect fuse which disconnects service when the MOV shorts. The fuse limits I^t and prevents vaporizing the MOV by unlimited current. MOV do definitely fail shorted but they also fail open from overwork. There is an accumulative effect which renders it ineffective. There have been advances since they were introduced 30+ years ago. The original ones used to die rather quickly. (I found out the hard way  )
The thread seems to have drifted far from the OP's question  but interesting dialog as usual.
The Surgex or any series device is certainly good protection. However, the cost ($500+ per box) is prohibitive for typical residential users. The MOV’s type protection is far better than no protection and at a cost of $50-$100 for the whole house, a worthwhile investment IMHO
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy). Sometime this is specified as actual Joules.
MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.
The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.
Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.
Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.
Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment.
MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection.
The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables. |
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electric6
@sbcglobal.net
| reply to alphapointe
I'm considering getting one of those big-ass isolation transformers and putting it in the line between the meter base/disconnect and the inside panel.
The ultraisolation transformer works best with higher frequency noise, not the low frequency surges and sags you probably see.
A more effective solution is to use a full on line UPS rather than the APC cheapos with mechanical relays. |
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alphapointe
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
clubs:
·Mediacom
| Are those the ones where the inverter runs all the time and the load runs off the battery with the battery being constantly charged with no direct connection between load and line?
I'll have to check into that before I blow up a PA or controller.
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Resistance is NOT futile...It's voltage divided by current. |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to electric6
said by electric6 :
MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy). Thanks for the clarification, the joule integral makes more sense than I^t.
said by electric6 :
MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.
The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.
Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.
Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.
Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment. MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection. Agreed
said by electric6 :
The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables.
I don’t own or plan to buy one of their devices so this is just an academic discussion  . The SurgeX is a series device. It does not use clamping to stop the “spikes”. Therefore the current rating is not the important number but what voltage can it handle before breaking down, they spec 6000 volts. I never did any power work but I do see some “hockey pucks” rated that high.
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| reply to electric6
said by electric6 :
MOVs have a voltage clamp rating, but the main rating is the I^2*t surge rating(proportional to energy). Sometime this is specified as actual Joules.
MOVs need a fuse in the power supply to disconnect service when the I^2*t value is exceeded to prevent disintegration of the device. MOVs convert the surge energy into heat.
The common mode current flows into ground, and raises the local ground. For best protection obviously any site should have a low impedance ground.
Any device which is not ground referenced cannot possibly clamp common mode surge voltages common in lightning strike type events.
Any active clamp device using semiconductor devices needs to be much bigger for given I^2*t rating compared to MOVs, because energy is dissipated only in the junction area.
Power quality is not cheap. It is always a trade off between the cost of proper protection, or the cost of downtime and replacing equipment.
MOVs are currently the most cost effective choice for service entrance protection.
The surgeX site somewhat resembles audio "expert" sites where the experts claim to be able to hear oxygen atoms dissolved in copper cables.
Good for you to clarify yourself on the finer points of MOV's (and reiterate some of the weaknesses of MOV based designs), however you still haven't shed any light on what pseudo science or confusion you have found on the Surgex site. Instead I still read insinuation and innuendo from you. Surgex's market focus is very different than what you assume it is.
Surgex is a very well respected brand in the professional AV community, and openly embraced by some of the brightest EE's who vehemently oppose the nonsense spewed by the ultra pure oxygen cable crowd. Even though Surgex may be a bit pricey, they are not the same as "high futility" type power conditioners you see out there that are considerably more expensive than the most expensive Surgex product. |
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jig
join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
| i think it's actually oxygen "free" copper they go on about. it actually is a better thermal conductor, though i'm not sure how that would translate into a "better listening experience".
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA | I think you have to inhale pure oxygen while you're listening to the music |
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| reply to steve1515
LOL, you guys are funny! I forgot to include the word "-free" after the word "oxygen" doh! I guess I need more oxygen before I type!  |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to steve1515
quote:
The word surge suppressor is sort of a misnomer (IMO). There is another term used TVS (Transient Voltage Supressor) which is closer to reality.
Just an FYI - the industry is moving away from the former 'TVSS' (transient voltage surge suppressor) terminology, to the more encompassing terminology: SPD (surge protective device). I am not really sure, but this is where things are headed. |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs:
 ·Future Nine Corpor..
 ·AT&T Southeast
| reply to steve1515
Guys, I hope it is ok to jump in here again, I have some questions from those of you with more hands on experience and knowledge than me:
I see now that a series solution that attaches in series with a house meter exists, and is very desirable. Wouldn't it be good to have an additional line of defense such as the intermatic some of you posted or the Deltas I posted?
Also, what do you guys think about upgrading a home's grounding, what steps could and should be done to add a layer of improvement in that area.
Next question: What about telephone line and Cable TV line protection. What products are there that can install at the service entrance for each of them? I know of the delta product for the telco line, but is there anything better? And I don't know of anything for Cable TV/ Dish TV.
One more question: Isn't it true that it is very bad to have 2 MOVs protectors in series, or something to that effect? I remember reading that it is bad to have a surge protector of MOV type in series with a UPS because the UPS would be damaged if it is of a certain type. Which types of UPS would be damaged and what other types of surge protectors and UPSs are there, and do you have links explaining the technologies, because it has been many years since I have been exposed to anything on the topic.
Thanks and sorry to pepper you all with so many questions.
For now on I am going to link people to this thread when they talk about surge protection in other threads, and not just suggest the Delta branded products. This is a very informative thread, one of the best ones EVER at DSLR, but it seems there are questions left hanging here...
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| said by signmeuptoo  :For now on I am going to link people to this thread when they talk about surge protection in other threads, and not just suggest the Delta branded products. This is a very informative thread, one of the best ones EVER at DSLR, but it seems there are questions left hanging here... I have a question for you since I gave the link for the Delta based on your recommendation
Do you know what the difference is between the SOV (silicon oxide varistor and the MOV (metal oxide varistor)? Delta seems to use the SOV in many of their products. There's tons of stuff on the MOV but not much on the SOV. Thanks!
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs:
·Future Nine Corpor..
·AT&T Southeast
| No, I am a disgrace to my college instructors and professors, heh, it has been nearly a decade and a half and I am very rusty on my electronics. I suppose we could dig up some information if others here don't have something to offer. I no longer have my electronics components catalogues, if I did I could look up stuff. And my textbooks are so buried it ain't funny.
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Let's be nice to each other, k? Life's too short. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to signmeuptoo
said by signmeuptoo : see now that a series solution that attaches in series with a house meter exists, and is very desirable. Wouldn't it be good to have an additional line of defense such as the intermatic some of you posted or the Deltas I posted? There is nothing (I know of) that attaches in series to your house's electrical distribution system to protect it from transients. Service entrance surge protective equipment (known as 'whole house surge protectors') attach in parallel, and almost universally via a two-pole circuit breaker in the primary distribution panel (circuit breaker panel). And its a very good idea.
quote:
Also, what do you guys think about upgrading a home's grounding, what steps could and should be done to add a layer of improvement in that area.
Making sure its up to code, should be the first step. Assuming this is the case, there are other steps that can be taken if you want to go to the extreme. Some additional ideas to improve grounding and surge protection:
- increase the size, where possible, of grounding conductors.
- increase the size, and quantity of ground rods. (The soil can also be prepared for lower resistivity.) A ground loop can even be put in around the house.
- installation of isolated ground circuits for computer and other sensitive equipment. (Proper installation. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, it is the rare electrician that understands proper installation of isolated grounding. To do so right, may require details from a qualified engineer.)
- Mulitple levels of AC power surge protection. Surge protectors are available that replace standard 15A and 20A receptacles.
- proper installation of primary surge protectors and grounding at low voltage cable (i.e. telephone, cable TV, satellite dish) entrances to the house. Ideally, a metallic entrance plate (I prefer annodized alluminum) with heavy grounding to the house's grounding electrode system. On this will be mounted gas-discharge-tube surge protectors for all coaxial cables, and telco-style lightning protectors for telephone lines and extensions.
- And if it warrants, a professionally designed lightning rod system.
These are all items that are improved a such for data centers, and telco central offices; no reason the same can't be done for a residence.
quote:
Next question: What about telephone line and Cable TV line protection. What products are there that can install at the service entrance for each of them? I know of the delta product for the telco line, but is there anything better? And I don't know of anything for Cable TV/ Dish TV.
Already answered, see above.
quote:
One more question: Isn't it true that it is very bad to have 2 MOVs protectors in series, or something to that effect?
No. In fact proper protection dictates multiple levels of surge protection; at the service entrance, and at the equipment for a household. |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs:
·Future Nine Corpor..
·AT&T Southeast
| So, you are saying that this is not a series device?
»www.efinet.com/index.php?mode=pr···ly_id=36
I thought it was from the conversation here.
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ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
Premium
join:2000-10-28
Hamilton, ON
| said by signmeuptoo :So, you are saying that this is not a series device? That is correct, it is not a series type device. Read the spec sheet carefully, especially under "Circuit Type." |
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
join:2001-11-22
LOSTinSpace
clubs: | Ah. |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| reply to whizkid3
said by whizkid3 :- installation of isolated ground circuits for computer and other sensitive equipment. (Proper installation. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, it is the rare electrician that understands proper installation of isolated grounding. To do so right, may require details from a qualified engineer.) Terms check by isolated ground, do you mean a single (undisturbed) ground from the outlet to the panel?
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