McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs:
 ·GCI.net
 ·PTIAlaska.NET
| My own mini-ISP OK, Here is my epiphany,
Those who know me, know that I've been desperately trying to get our telco to get us off of pair gain and get DSL out here. Which is very feasible considering there are about 400-500 homes in the vicinity, and all are on pair gain.
So, talking to a buddy of mine, who happens to be a tech for this company (I'm not going to mention a company name, but from this point on, said telco company will be referred to as "Smegma", due to my vast hate toward their operations (and their retarded slogan "We're there")), I was talking to him and he said Smegma has T1 offers for about $500/month. So I figure, if a get a T1 from Smegma, have it run to my garage, get all the necessary hardware to run a wireless ISP (similar to Clearwire) out of my house. I seriously have about 500 neighbors, all without broadband (some may have satellite, but who can really call THAT broadband?), would it seem worth the cost? | |
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n1zuk
My wood is stacked
Premium
join:2001-10-24
South Burlington, VT | Re: My own mini-ISP I don't think you will be running that many users off a T1. | |
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MrFixitSC
Premium,VIP,ExMod 2001-06
join:2000-12-01
Moncks Corner, SC
1 edit | a full T-1 cicuit is 1.544 Meg up and down... I believe you need line-of-sight to every potential subscriber for it to work as well.. | |
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rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA
·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: My own mini-ISP Yeah unless you have lots of time and want to make this into atleast a part time business don't pursue it. wireless is more complex than a simple land line. plus your forgetting that radios are $100-500 depending on what you get, antenna's are about $50 each, LMR cable is not very cheap, etc. You also don't realize that you have to manage this ISP, if just one person uses bittorrent with out any limitations set in place by you they can bring everything to a crawl.
+ you have to be allowed to resell the T1
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"Hows your French toast?" "Smelly and ungrateful, but this AMERICAN toast is great!" | |
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PetePuma
How many lumps do you want
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-13
Arlington, VA
| said by McLovin  :The way I understand it is, that every IP that is attached to the T1 gets 1.544Mbps, not the whole line (i.e. 1.5 Mbps Cable/DSL). Also wanted to clear this up: you are wrong; it is EXACTLY like Cable/DSL. The pipe is 1.544, regardless of the # of IPs. You will be sharing that amongst everyone. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by PetePuma :You will be sharing that amongst everyone. You can allocate as much or as little bandwidth as you wish to each user on a per user basis, or create groups (like "basic" and "premium") with different bandwidth characteristics and assign users to those groups.
There are many ways to manage your bandwidth...
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | I probably won't. I'm just tired of this dial up BS. I'm ready for something better.
SUCKS! | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp | Re: My own mini-ISP Post your lat/long...
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ | How about just starting as a co-op with a few of your closer neighbors? Start with cheap gear and carve that T1 cost up between 5-10 people... If you like the "work" of running a tiny ISP, then expand slowly... | |
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Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey
·Comcast
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by sporkme :
How about just starting as a co-op with a few of your closer neighbors? Start with cheap gear and carve that T1 cost up between 5-10 people... If you like the "work" of running a tiny ISP, then expand slowly...
Not to mention once it's stable and there's good word of mouth the co-op can add more T1 lines with investors cash. Investors can agree, by neighborhood, if they want wireless or wired and the cost of running the wires.
At $500/mo per T1 line, that's only $50 per 10 people. Done in groups of 12 or 14, there's still some profit for the co-op. Doing it in small groups would also help in management
I think what I would do is put an ad in the local paper stating you're thinking of starting a co-op, some basic thought of the terms and plan a meeting for all those interested. If one person shows up, you've limited your expense to the ad. If most of the town shows up, you can begin a commitee to get to work on doing it legally and so you have no personal financial obligation if it goes wrong.
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The most courageous thing you can do is be honest. | |
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | 60N 32' 9.82"
60.53606
6,712,600.0
151W 06' 56.05"
-151.11557
603,400.0 | |
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PersComp
Premium
join:2005-08-17
Cayce, SC | Re: My own mini-ISP In the bay near Anchorage, Alaska????? | |
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| | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| If you install a short tower, you can serve many neighbourhoods around you, but it will be best to use the 190ft high ridge (King Salmon, Ridgetop) for the PtP link.
Can you get T1 line (or even business DSL) at Kenai? That may be a good start to your WISP.
Later, you can explore a 2-hop backhaul from Anchorage. You can also use dedicated VSAT as the backhaul, but monthly cost will be higher than T1. | |
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PersComp
Premium
join:2005-08-17
Cayce, SC
| RM doesn't seem to like that area..... It seems to think the land ends right below Skilak lake. 
That was why I thought the coordinates were in the middle of the bay. I didn't lay a Mapquest over the topo when I looked after getting the coordinates so it just looked like water. I'll see if I can figure out any other way to get some topo data in RM...
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Are these instructions or corrections??? | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by PersComp :RM doesn't seem to like that area..... It seems to think the land ends right below Skilak lake. RM is fine ... there has been very few Shuttle missions recently to update some gaps in SRTM elevation data. | |
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PersComp
Premium
join:2005-08-17
Cayce, SC
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by lutful :said by PersComp :RM doesn't seem to like that area..... It seems to think the land ends right below Skilak lake. RM is fine ... there has been very few Shuttle missions recently to update some gaps in SRTM elevation data. Well, let's call someone and get a shuttle in the air! For the sake of wireless propogation, we need data!!! 
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Are these instructions or corrections??? | |
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PersComp
Premium
join:2005-08-17
Cayce, SC | Re: My own mini-ISP That is COOL! Do you get to pick which direction you are looking at too?
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Are these instructions or corrections??? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by PersComp :That is COOL! Do you get to pick which direction you are looking at too? Yes...I do! And elevation.
A bunch of stuff!
The elevation shown in that pic is shown at 8X.
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| inova
join:2006-05-03
Macnutt, SK | That is cool! How did you make that pic John? | |
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Descent
Wrap It Up
Premium
join:2000-11-10
WDC Suburb | If you're serious about doing it, skip the T1, get a fractional T3 and start your WISP off right. | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: My own mini-ISP I will second the fractional T3 suggestion to go with a 2-hop 5Ghz wireless backhaul from Anchorage.
Google Earth and Delorme shows many customers in relatively flat coastal communities. This is WISP heaven. | |
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| | milbrath
join:2006-03-27
Dresden, TN
| Re: My own mini-ISP You people are crazy suggesting a start up get a fractional T3. Here even with a three year contract a fractional T3 starts out about 8,000 per month. Does a start-up really need that, NO! Maybe he can get better rates than we can, maybe not. Look to the local telco/cable operator in a nearby town, and backhaul from there. Or start out with a T1 and wait till you need more. I'm waiting on a quote from Charter for a fiber connection, price is $125 per mb + build out costs. Way cheaper than our T1's or a T3 will ever be in this area. A T1 is a nice place to start, and he should be able to get close to or more than 80 people on it so long as they restrict/monitor usage and get a bandwidth shaper. You'd be supprised how many people a poor old T1 can really handle.
BM | |
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| | | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | Re: My own mini-ISP Yes, he could start his mini-WISP with a T1 or even a business-class DSL from Kenai or Anchorage.
We don't even know if anyone offers fractional T3 in Anchorage which also has limited VSAT coverage. | |
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53059959
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
1 edit | Re: My own mini-ISP you could setup a few computers to act as proxys for common web content if you have or know someone who has the expertise.
that way you don't consume a lot of bandwidth on your outgoing pipe when ppl do things like checking e-mail and pages like google and news/weather. for that small amount of users the machines don't have to be super powerful.
edit:
oh, and also t3h sux0rz, but you could create a transfer cap. you could make like a download limit of 10gb per month, and charge extra for usage over that. that way you would discourage p2p and bittorent users. I know most power user geeks here @ bbr scowl at the idea of transfer caps, but it sounds like your trying to get internet to average joe's and small businesses. | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by McLovin :I may place a cap, depending on if it becomes an actual issue. It will...you can be sure of that.
You might want to consider using a Mirkotik router to prioritize the P2P. This will allow the P2P users to DL when it is slow....and push them to the bottom of the priority list when it is busy.
Your new partner should be aware of this hardware and its functionality...
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | Re: My own mini-ISP Yeah, I hope it all works out. | |
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | I can just use the three PC's I have in the house already, and just use the Proxy software in the background. | |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| I will suggest that you plan ahead and work with Kodiak Kenai Fiber Link (KKFL) that will have a landing point right at Kenai.
Alaska to Get New Cable
JULY 17, 2006
PARIS -- Alcatel (Paris: CGEP.PA and NYSE: ALA) today announced that its Maersk Defender cable ship is about to start laying a regional submarine cable network for Kodiak Kenai Cable Company - a subsidiary of the Alaskan Old Harbor Native Corporation - in Seward, Alaska. The turnkey deployment of the new Kodiak Kenai Fiber Link (KKFL) will provide the first fiber optic connections from Anchorage and Seward to communities on the Kenai Peninsula and Kodiak Island, serving the communications requirements of approximately 60,000 citizens as well as for the Alaska Aerospace Development Corporation Launch Complex on Kodiak Island.
Designed to provide an ultimate capacity of about 1 Tbit/s, the KKFL will stretch more than 900 km with landing points in Anchorage, Homer and Kenai, Mill Bay and Narrow Cape. The project completion is scheduled by December 2006.
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | Re: My own mini-ISP We are talking about this, and I think for the user capacity that we are going to start with (about 30 users), a bonded T1 will serve us nicely (either 3Mbps or 4.5Mbps, undecided). | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by McLovin :We are talking about this, and I think for the user capacity that we are going to start with (about 30 users), a bonded T1 will serve us nicely (either 3Mbps or 4.5Mbps, undecided). Planning ahead for a transition is very wise.
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | Do you think that a single T1 would handle well for 30 users? Should I step it up to a dual or triple bond T1? | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
1 edit | Re: My own mini-ISP said by McLovin :Do you think that a single T1 would handle well for 30 users? Should I step it up to a dual or triple bond T1? Yes...but have an upgrade path well-considered...in advance.
Don't worry about adding capacity until you get to a consistent 1MB traffic level, then add some more capacity.
Sure...the burst level will get there, but that is a transitory condition. The burst will "always" consume the whole pipe.
Have a plan...!
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| said by McLovin :Do you think that a single T1 would handle well for 30 users?
Yes, it will. With the proper bandwidth management in place, 30 customers will be very happy. Just make sure that You setup a Mikrotik or M0n0wall box to watch over the traffic, otherwise the first person to open up BitTorent, Limewire etc program will CRUSH Your T1.
said by McLovin :Should I step it up to a dual or triple bond T1? The rule of thumb I always follow is to only buy what You need. Prices of bandwidth are always dropping, so just getting a T1 until You need more bandwidth is the best policy, as You would be really mad if You were locked into a 3 year contract for $500 per T1 and right after You signed up, another provider could give You a T1 for $350 per line. Take Your time and think things thru, as most of Your decisions will have a long term effect on Your wallet. 
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/ | |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by superdog :...as most of Your decisions will have a long term effect on Your wallet.
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Descent
Wrap It Up
Premium
join:2000-11-10
WDC Suburb
1 edit | Yikes, sorry. It's just that in this day and age, 1.5mb of down speed just isn't enough in this world of gigabytes and terabytes. Granted, Wireless isn't cable, and I wouldn't expect to see any speeds over 300kb/s but 100kb/s won't cut it for most users and they will jump ship as soon as something better is available. The point im trying to make is not that a T1 can't handle 30-90 users when provisioned correctly with traffic shaping and smart bandwidth control, but the most you'll ever see is 150kb/s bursts between those 30-90 users and that's not fast at all in today's day and age.
Atleast if you had a fractional T3 or bonded T1's then you could offer 2-6mb down 1.5mb up or something along those lines  . in no way did i say I wanted the OP to get a 45mbps 10k/mo T3.
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College Inquiry.com
66.208.104.33:27015 - OutKast Clan CS Source »cstrike-planet.com | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| said by jbob :It would only take about 27 users given 56k each to saturate(if downloading/uploading at the same time) that same T-1. This will only be true if all 27 users phone each other ahead of time and start downloading large files at the same time from 27 different sites.
Otherwise, left to pure statistics, the 27 people on a single T1 will all think they have a 1Mbps pipe if they engage in typical web browsing, checking e-mails and only occasional file downloads.
If the poster eventually hooks up with KKFL fiber at Kenai landing point, I will suggest he consider a 10Mbps Ethernet link burstable to 100Mbps. Many smaller DSL ISPs use that sized pipe for hundreds of users. | |
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joshg409
join:2005-05-03
Ottumwa, IA
| Yes you can do this with a T1! Most of us on this forum have provided at least 256K service to multiples of happy customers. We have a 4.5M Pipe that runs at 75% usage at peak times and sell connections from 256 to 1M. A t1 is not cable or DSL as others have mentioned. A T1 is full duplex 1.544 up and down at the same time, I can resell my T1 and I have 2 Class C subnets of IP's to assign. I have a service level agreement with my provider that gaurantees QOS on the pipe. I can't get any of that from DSL/Cable. Keep in mind speed is relative as is the speed of your PC. A cable subscriber will never dump his 3M cable connection for your 256K wireless, he/she knows what a 3M pipe can bring them. Just as you wouldn't trash your 3.2ghz PC for a P90 with a floating point error. A 56K dialup user won't know the difference between a 256 and 512K connection but will cry tears of joy when he sees how fast either one of them are! What I am saying is don't sell a 512K connection right off, sell 256 to start and sell speed increases if they get tired of 256. Sell 256K up and down and you can easily get 75-100 subs on the T1 with the right bandwidth shaper. We all dream of a quiet spectrum and no competition from DSL/Cable. You probably have both, start out small and work your way up. Most T1 providers will be happy to increase your speed and add t1's when you need it, but they won't let you go down in speed or services once the contracts are signed. | |
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| | milbrath
join:2006-03-27
Dresden, TN
| Re: My own mini-ISP I have found that we can oversell anywhere betweem 35-40x in my area. Yours may be different. Ideally you should be able to oversell by a multiple of atleast 30. So selling 512k connections may very well handle 90 users, maybe not. Keep in mind that the larger the pipe you have the greater number you can oversell by.
BM | |
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Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey | Re: My own mini-ISP Can't he simply have several T1 lines laid? That will not only give the needed bandwidth but if one goes down the others can cover temporarily.
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The most courageous thing you can do is be honest. | |
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| | | | lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: My own mini-ISP I asked around a bit and it seems that T1 and SDSL availability is extremely limited right now.
Kodiak island is being used for the US missile shield program, so there is some urgency in getting the Kodiak-Kenai Fiber Link (KKFL) completed quickly. That fiber will also extend to Anchorage. | |
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | So 30-40 users at 512/512 on a single T1 shouldn't pose a problem? | |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| Re: My own mini-ISP said by McLovin :So 30-40 users at 512/512 on a single T1 shouldn't pose a problem? I would say 30 users is about right. Not everyone is going to click on a link at the same time or download at the same time. I would also limit Your upload to 256k, as that will give You a little more headroom to operate with.
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/ | |
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Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
Premium,MVM
join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey | Re: My own mini-ISP Any term for contracts and discounts? | |
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uscomputing
join:2005-01-26
Buffalo, NY | Hey, when did superdog1 become superdog? | |
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superdog
I Need A Drink
Premium,MVM
join:2001-07-13
Lebanon, PA
| Re: OT said by uscomputing :Hey, when did superdog1 become superdog? About 3 weeks ago. I only had the 1 after my name because another user has used plain old "superdog". It was now available, so I switched.
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»www.wavecrazy.net Join WISPA today! »www.wispa.org/ | |
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| | inova
join:2006-05-03
Macnutt, SK | Re: OT Congrats! Now you are the 'top' dog. | |
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | back in topic plz
any good backhaul providers anyone knows about? Waiting on a call from bandwidth.com | |
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| lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | Re: My own mini-ISP What about TelAlaska?
Do you plan to do multi-hop backhaul from Anchorage? Your choice is very limited in Kenai at the moment. | |
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McLovin
Chicka chicka yeah
Premium
join:2005-06-12
Fairbanks, AK
clubs: | Re: My own mini-ISP GCI is supposed to call today with info and pricing. ACS wants to lay fiber and do a 10Mbps Ethernet backbone (100Mbps burst) for $1800 a month.
Don't want to take that option really though. Thoughts? | |
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Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
Arnprior On.
| Re: My own mini-ISP FAR more B/W then you're going to need. Keep costs down and scale up later... you're going to need cash flow for all the OTHER things that are going to cost ya . They may consider a 1Mbps VLAN with 10Mbps burst for less ? You seriously don't need more than a couple Mbps to service 50-100 users. | |
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| | | | milbrath
join:2006-03-27
Dresden, TN
| Re: My own mini-ISP I've voiced about a T1 being more than enough for the beggining. That being said, if you feel that the system will grow quick enough a 10mb dedicated connection for 1800 is not that bad, cheaper than what we are forced to pay for (2) T1's. So it comes down to numbers, can you grow quick enough to start out at that point.
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