manshack_one
join:2006-08-11
Crockett, TX | BPL competition
Well, I was just thinking about ordering some equipment when I heard we're getting BPL in our county next year. I'm not sure if it's still worth trying to roll out a wisp if BPL is coming. Any opinions? |
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rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA | The ham guys might get it shut down |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| I will even suggest you accelerate your WISP deployment after revising your business plan to lower your costs and monthly fees. 
Doc on BPL interference from the CEO of ARRL:
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/f···mner.pdf
Plus a "what-to-do" guide if BPL comes to town:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/guidance.html |
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manshack_one
join:2006-08-11
Crockett, TX | Yeah, my dad is a ham and signed a petition the other day. So, the interference wouldn't really bother anything in our spectrum right? It's just the millions of dollars the utilities can throw at it that is the biggest threat. |
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Keithb
join:2003-09-16
US
| reply to manshack_one
I don't forsee the BPL ever being shut down, or stopped, including from the HAM operators. I don't understand why someone who does something as a hobby wants to stop something that could benefits the entire world. I honestly see no point in HAM, and would not miss it if it left personally.
If BPL comes down to realistic pricing, we will be one of the BPL ISP's. We own all infrastructure, and currently use Power Line Carrier to inject 12.5khz on the 60hz on existing lines that a local HAM claims we are interfering with which was BS in his statements. We are very familiar with pushing data over power-lines and is much more feasible for us, rather than WISP if the costs were not so high.
Flame away!!..  |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| It seems hams are given good adviced by ARRL in the "what-to-do" link.
...Contact your electric utility and establish a good line of communication. If you can, determine location and dates of the trials or BPL installation
...
If the system isn’t in place yet, make measurements of pre-system noise ... You are establishing a baseline so that you can document any change in noise levels.
Work with your power company as appropriate. The intent is to determine if they are using amateur spectrum in any way and to demonstrate to them any interference that occurs... |
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wispman
join:2004-12-21
USA
| reply to Keithb
said by Keithb  :I don't forsee the BPL ever being shut down, or stopped, including from the HAM operators. Flame away!!.. They have already stopped and shut down many projects.....
BUT.....I heard that there are a few newer trials going on with certain gear that have gotten the ARRL "stamp of approval". BPL is coming. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON | I heard new BPL systems will use many carriers in the KHz range (like OFDM) rather than using carriers in common HAM bands. |
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rawgerz
In Debt we trust
Premium
join:2004-10-03
Grove City, PA
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| reply to manshack_one
Hams are good people. I never participated but they shouldn't be silenced.
BPL has interfered with emergency bands too.. I don't know bout' ya'll but I don't want to need assistance and they can't communicate because of BPL.
As long as power lines are unshielded, there will always be crushing interference.
But I think most power co's are looking at this for remote meter reading, not BB. |
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gmcintire
Graham
Premium
join:2005-08-09
Blue Ridge, TX
| Thanks rawgerz, you have some good points.
An extremely basic antenna is hardly more than an unshielded wire -- exactly what the power company has to use. The power companies are looking to directly offer broadband speed via BPL. Our co-op already uses a "Turtle" device, apparently made by Hunt Technologies for automated meter reading, without BPL.
Lutful, from what I've seen various BPL systems operate anywhere from 1.7 MHz - 80 MHz with various modulations depending on the equipment being used.
I could shout about this issue until I go hoarse, but I'll refrain. Ham radio operators (myself being one) have always been the "good guys" in regards to interference. The majority of the time if an issue comes up where a ham is interfering with a neighbor's tv set, etc, they'll do everything they can to make the other person happy even though they have no legal obligation to do so. There are always bad apples in every bunch, so there will be some hams that act like total jerks and try to run the world because they're licensed.
Quite frankly I hope BPL succeeds overall and the companies working on it find a way to eliminate interference to HF bands. I think it's a viable "last mile" solution that will fill in the gap where WISPs have not been able to thus far. However, if I fire up my 6 meter rig and hear a good BZZZZZZ when I'm anywhere close to power lines the power co-op will be getting some complaints from myself, my wife, my mom, and my dad (all licensed.)
KC5VQD |
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Keithb
join:2003-09-16
US
| reply to manshack_one
The Turtle system is a form of BPL, but more Power Line Carrier (PLC). It's the same principle but far smaller bandwidths. It might take a turtle meter 2 weeks to send in a reading, thus the name turtle. The system we use has devices that can be read in real-time and meters read in less than 3 seconds.
I'd like to see any venture succeed that will provide broadband to rural residents. We are a co-op and that is our goal, to provide services to areas that investor owned companies won't. They should all work together, but not STOP it in it's tracks. I don't believe it will ever be stopped, maybe modified. I think it will be a matter of cooperation, and a matter of making it cost effective.
I personally don't even know the use of Ham, or ever seen the radios, although I've seen homes with 20 antennas on a tower. lol Not something I've ever looked into I suppose. |
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lutful
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
| said by Keithb :It might take a turtle meter 2 weeks to send in a reading, thus the name turtle. A genuine turtle meter.
Did some more research ... it seems that current BPL chips use standard OFDM with carriers in the Mhz range. So any nearby HAM transmission could reduce BPL throughput. 
But if the carriers were in the KHz range, almost no one will complain about BPL interference. Very reliable and interference-free 1-10 Mb/s over PL should be possible depending on cable length and transformers, etc.
But most likely they need to use MIMO technology like this one used for 10 Gb/s Ethernet over unshielded CAT6 cable.
»www.solarflare.com/ |
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LLigetfa
join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
| reply to gmcintire
said by gmcintire :Ham radio operators (myself being one) have always been the "good guys" in regards to interference. The majority of the time if an issue comes up where a ham is interfering with a neighbor's tv set, etc, they'll do everything they can to make the other person happy even though they have no legal obligation to do so. LOL
That is why they never say Television Interference on the air but rather talk about Tennessee Valley Indians.
Just kidding... some of my best friends were hams and I might have been one if could have mastered morse. |
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Keithb
join:2003-09-16
US
| reply to lutful
said by lutful :A genuine turtle meter. Actually, that's not a turtle meter, just a standard GE electro-mechanical meter with the Turtle module. The turtle module can be put on just about any meter, as they now even have a solid-state module that's used with Icon/Sensus solid state meters, or Itron. I can't remember.
We do not use Turtle for a bunch of reasons, but they use the same PLC technology. Our PLC is similar to the 900mhz. We have a CCU (Carrier Control Unit), an SCU (Signal Control Unit) that couples to capacitors and Primary capacitors.
I was hoping we would be able to do a pilot program for one of the BPL vendors but I guess our pockets aren't big enough although we're 90% rural. |
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