Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors I read all but one of the articles (one won't load) and it is not clear to me what happens here. We get a Vista that forces Microsoft's search engine on us and forces Microsoft's version of a pdf reader on us and we can't buy the AV of our choice because the APIs that are being offered to certain vendors are only for the European and Korean versions? Only the Europeans and Koreans get a decent version of Vista? All because the Department of Justice is asleep?
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"If you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy." Ross Anderson in "`Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions"
»www.ie7.com/ | |
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 dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors There's nothing in the article I can see that says the changes made to satisfy the EU will be available in the EU only.
(There is some mention of Korea "getting a unique view" but I don't know what that means). | |
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 | Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
1 edit | Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors UPDATE 6-Microsoft makes changes to Vista in EU, S. Korea
»today.reuters.com/news/articlein···ype=qcna
It's that title that makes me wonder if the changes Microsoft agreed to are ONLY for the EU version (and Korea gets it own totally separate version according to another article).
To me it sounds like the changes are only for the EU.
EDIT: According to this article:
"Even with the changes, which will be included in all versions the company ships worldwide,..."
The article goes on to say that the European version and Korean will not have WMP and the Korean version will also not have Microsoft's IM software. So, it appears the other changes will be in all versions worldwide. 
»www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/···109.html
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"If you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy." Ross Anderson in "`Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions"
»www.ie7.com/ | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| said by Mele20  : and forces Microsoft's version of a pdf reader on us 1) How does Microsoft offering a new tool have even the slightest impact on whether you can install and run Acrobat?
2) When users have the native ability to create whatever Microsoft's PDFs are called, without having to spend money for a third-party solution (have you ever priced the Acrobat product that does this?), is this really such a bad thing?
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site | |
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| dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors said by Steve :have you ever priced the Acrobat product that does this? Please try and keep up.
"Professional" operating system = $299 : exorbitant price, abuse of monopoly power.
"Professional" document production software = $199 : appropriate price for product of independent software vendor.
(As usual when discussing price, I have to make this clear: Of course I prefer lower prices. But what I'm interested in here is the perception that some prices are too high in principle.) | |
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| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors Hmm, I got my price for Acrobat Pro from a google-selected web retailer. They said it was the retail package. Looks a little suspicious that they're selling it for less than half what you quoted.
(Though of course your figures make my point even better: multifunction OS = price gouging, single application = fair price).
The XP Pro price is MS's list price. | |
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INHCNN
join:2001-12-15
Lansing, MI
| said by dave :"Professional" operating system = $299 : exorbitant price, abuse of monopoly power. "Professional" document production software = $199 : appropriate price for product of independent software vendor. How the heck is $300 exorbitant for an OS whereas $200 is appropriate for an application that you use a faction of the time that you're using the OS? Call me back when it's $20.
...and independant! That's like calling Sony Music an indie record label. Pfft.
oh... independant of M$. Got it. Nothing trumps blind hate for 'ol evil M$.
said by Steve :Perhaps you have no need to create a PDF, but many many others do, and most of those resent having to spend hundreds of dollars for Adobe's software. True, there are third party programs that do PDF creation, but none of them are as good as Acrobat. True that. In fact, there's a fourth party market for apps that convert PDF to DOC. But guess what? Adobe's going to force (sarcasim) their PDF to DOC converter in version 8 (it's one of the new features). So, so far as MS being "unfair" to PDF by being the bigger fish and offering a competitive product, Adobe is doing the same thing to companies smaller than they. Big bank takes little bank.
Wow, talk about OT. Good job Mele.
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"Pressure makes diamonds."
--General George S. Patton | |
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| | | dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors said by INHCNN :How the heck is $300 exorbitant for an OS whereas $200 is appropriate for an application that you use a faction of the time that you're using the OS? Uh, I think your sarcasm sensors need immediate adjustment.
I assumed it would be obvious that I was ridiculing a viewpoint that is prevalent in this forum. | |
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| Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| said by Steve :2) When users have the native ability to create whatever Microsoft's PDFs are called, without having to spend money for a third-party solution (have you ever priced the Acrobat product that does this?), is this really such a bad thing? The reader is free...so, no, I haven't tried to price a free product. 
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"If you want to do DRM on a PC then you need to treat the user as the enemy." Ross Anderson in "`Trusted Computing' Frequently Asked Questions"
»www.ie7.com/ | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors said by Mele20 :The reader is free...so, no, I haven't tried to price a free product. Yes, the reader is free (and very good), but the software to create those PDFs you're reading for free is not - somebody else is spending money for the PDF writers.
Perhaps you have no need to create a PDF, but many many others do, and most of those resent having to spend hundreds of dollars for Adobe's software. True, there are third party programs that do PDF creation, but none of them are as good as Acrobat.
Should a company be allowed to give away a "free" tool if it's only to drive demand for its expensive software?
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site | |
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AB
Premium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors said by Steve :. . Should a company be allowed to give away a "free" tool if it's only to drive demand for its expensive software? Steve Good question. I wonder what Microsoft's response to that would be? | |
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| | | Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI | I thought Microsoft was giving away a pdf reader not a tool to create PDF's. | |
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Steve
I'm a PC, so shut up
Consultant
join:2001-03-10
Yorba Linda, CA
| Re: Microsoft Opening Up Vista Kernel To Security Vendors said by Mele20 :I thought Microsoft was giving away a pdf reader not a tool to create PDF's. No. Microsoft has invented a new portable-document format, the XML Paper Specification (XPS), that is meant to compete head to head with PDF. Vista will ship with tools for reading and writing, and though I haven't really looked at the details, being based on XML looks to be a pretty big win for the open-standards folks - there are a LOT of tools that work with XML now.
There are a lot of unanswered questions about this:•Is the format actually any good?•Will people actually adopt it enough to drive demand?•Will the open source folks be able to produce/consume XPS documents?•What's the license look like?•Will this actually hurt Adobe?•(If "Yes") does this matter? If this takes off, consumer will have yet another useful tool included in the OS that they used to have to pay real money for.
Steve
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Stephen J. Friedl • Unix Wizard • Microsoft Security MVP • Tustin, California USA • my web site | |
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| | astirusty
Premium
join:2000-12-23
Henderson, NV
·AT&T Southwest
| said by Mele20 :said by Steve :2) When users have the native ability to create whatever Microsoft's PDFs are called, without having to spend money for a third-party solution (have you ever priced the Acrobat product that does this?), is this really such a bad thing? The reader is free...so, no, I haven't tried to price a free product. Maybe -- Windows Vista should be free; just like Adobe's PDF reader?
Let MS make money charging for the tools to create your own version of Windows Vista, similar to how Adobe charges for the tools to create your own PDF documents. | |
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Martinus
Premium
join:2001-08-06
EU
4 edits | said by Mele20 :We get a Vista that... 
Only those who buy Vista - or download a cracked Vista - will get Vista. It's not like it's going to be pushed by Windows Update to everybody. You've got nothing to worry or complain about.
said by Mele20 :...I have said repeatedly for a long time that I have no plans to upgrade this 8 month old gaming computer to Vista. Since this is a new computer, I won't be buying another for some time. So no Vista. »Re: Microsoft 'taking security risks'
Edit: Added self-explanatory content with link | |
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