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bcerhart
Premium
join:2004-07-29
Brea, CA

 [Other] VoiceStick Unlimited is not unlimited

I signed up for service with i2Telecom in August of 2006 via their website (voicestick.com). On their website the offer "Unlimited USA/Canada" residential calling plans for $19.99/month. On November 9 my service stopped working, and I received the following email:

Dear Mr. Erhart,

We have made a final business decision to revoke your Residential
account with Voice Stick. Our typical residential user is running
about 450 minutes a month and our typical SOHO Business class user
around 1500 minutes.

Your account had incoming and out bound calls of around 6600 minutes
in the last 30 days, along with a high number of total calls.

We invite you to take your business to Vonage, Packet 8 or some other
company that allows for this high amount of usage.

I contacted them and requested a resolution, because I was not notified prior to this email that I was over my minutes on an "unlimited" plan. They offered to switch me to their business plan for $45/month which was not feasible, and I requested a refund for their service. They denied my request so I disputed the transaction with my bank. I am filling this complaint as I believe that this company is fraudulent and unethical. It is very important that the public be aware of their misleading practices.

PhilAIV

join:2002-02-16
Carrollton, GA
clubs:
·AT&T Southeast

Not to sound rude, but at 6600 minutes a month I don't know of a single Voip company that won't boot you after a couple months on a residential account. Maybe you can sign up with a company that offers a good price on business accounts.

PhilAIV


loudvoice

@telus.net

I don't agreen with you, PhilAIV. If he join a "Unlimited" plan. He should get Unlimited access to the service during his billing period ( As the plan state) . If the company don't let him do that, This is a false advertisement. The company should change the plan name to 6000 minutes instead of "UNLIMITED" and state 6000 mins MAX in the plan. By the way, just do a simple math. 6600 min / 60 = 110 hrs. 110/ 30 = 3.6 hrs. Hey, everydays talk 3.6 hrs isn't much in deed considering the phone is using by the whole family like size of 5+.

PhilAIV

join:2002-02-16
Carrollton, GA
clubs:
·AT&T Southeast

reply to bcerhart
Sorry, but my statement was not an opinion, but an observation. This is a reoccurring problem and I agree that there is no such thing as unlimited (in any industry) and therefore companies shouldn't lie by saying there is. The problem isn't just with voip providers, but with most industries. (cellphone, & internet providers to name a few.)

Though to also play the devil's advocate: The consumer has to take some of the responsibility as well because no one can expect the world for the price of a small third world country.

PhilAIV

rizzo2dial
Premium
join:2004-08-05

reply to bcerhart
said by bcerhart See Profile :

We have made a final business decision to revoke your Residential
account with Voice Stick. Our typical residential user is running
about 450 minutes a month and our typical SOHO Business class user
around 1500 minutes.
450 minutes/mo for $19.99/mo??? They're on CRACK! They offer a Next To Nothing plan for FREE w/ unlimited INCOMING calls. On top of that they charge $0.02/min for outgoing domestic calls. 450 outgoing mins @ $0.02/ea = $9.00!
 
 
said by bcerhart See Profile :

Your account had incoming and out bound calls of around 6600 minutes
in the last 30 days, along with a high number of total calls.
Going back to my previous point, their Next To Nothing plan includes FREE UNLIMITED INCOMING calls. Of that 6600 minute figure above, only the OUTBOUND minutes are relevant.
 
 
said by bcerhart See Profile :

They offered to switch me to their business plan for $45/month which was not feasible
At $0.02/min, that only covers 2250 minutes of outgoing talk time. Before you know it, they'll want you to switch to their $79.99/mo plan.
 
 
said by bcerhart See Profile :

I requested a refund for their service. They denied my request so I disputed the transaction with my bank.
You should have no trouble winning this dispute. The word "Unlimited" is posted clear as day on VoiceStick's web-site. Upon losing the dispute, not only will the charges be reversed, they'll likely be charged a dispute penalty of perhaps $50 - $100.
 
 
said by bcerhart See Profile :

I am filling this complaint as I believe that this company is fraudulent and unethical. It is very important that the public be aware of their misleading practices.
Thank you for making the BBR VoIP community aware of VoiceStick/i2Telecom's practices!

bcerhart
Premium
join:2004-07-29
Brea, CA

There is also several things to consider that I did not mention before. I was using their i2Bridge feature which allowed me to use their service from POTS without incurring long-distance charges. I also had call-forwarding setup to redirect to my mobile phone. The method in which it would connect and calculate minutes is approximately 2 minutes per call received that was not answered, and 1 to 2 minutes for every call made not received.

I also had several issues in which the service would call me back, or call back the outgoing number after disconnecting. This incurred additional minutes, plus several minutes of blank voicemails that it would leave on my mobile phone. I probably used close to 2500 minutes, which is no where close to unlimited. They also disconnected the service before the end of the billing cycle, and did not offer any refund. The person I spoke with claimed to be the Vice President, but his language and emails were very unprofessional. I'll be happy to post those soon.


cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

reply to bcerhart
It's their business model. It's their decision to make. Unfortunately you got screwed in the deal. File the dispute and hope for the best.

Thanks for letting us know of their practices. Whoever you decide to go with, be sure to check with them prior to making a long term commitment to make sure they don't have a similar policy.

That being said...this is the same type of problem many ISPs have had when they would advertise "Unlimited" broadband, but it ends up there was some type of cap or expectation that usage would be below a particular level. I find it hard to imagine that the typical user only uses 450 minutes a month. I would have expected it higher. But using 6600 minutes also does not fit what I would expect for typical residential use either. That's nearly 4 hours on the phone every day. Definitely not impossible, but seems like a lot as well.
--
Quis custodiet custodes ipsos?

NGOwner

join:2000-11-21
Leawood, KS

reply to bcerhart
This is why you have to read the terms of service you agree to sign up for the service:

»www.voicestick.com/Information/T···ice.aspx

quote:
2. RIGHTS TO WITHOLD OR CANCEL SERVICE. End User authorizes i2telecom to verify its creditworthiness with a credit reporting agency to determine End User's eligibility for Service. If End User is approved for Service, End User agrees not to resell the Service (For distributor information visit www.i2telecom.com/distributor.html ). End User agrees and represents that they are buying the Services and/or the Equipment for their own internal, personnel and private use only. End User also agrees not to use Service for any unlawful or abusive purpose or in such a way as to create damage or risk to i2telecom's business, reputation, employees, facilities, third parties or to the public in general. THE COMPANY RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CANCEL OR WITHHOLD SERVICE TO ANY PARTY REGARDLESS OF REASON WITHOUT NOTICE. i2telecom may require an activation fee or deposit to resume terminated or suspended Services.

11. TERMINATION. i2telecom reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to suspend or terminate the Services without advanced notice for any reason, including without limitation, misuse of the Services in any way, End User's breach of this Agreement, End User’s failure to pay any sum due hereunder, resale of the Services, suspected fraud or other activity by End User that adversely affects i2telecom. i2telecom reserves the right to determine, at its sole discretion, what constitutes misuse of the Services and End User agrees that i2telecom's determination is final and binding on End User. i2telecom may require an activation fee to resume terminated or suspended Services.

Emphasis Original
You made your bed. Go lie in it.

[NG]Owner
--
It is impossible to create an idiot-proof product. Humanity is simply too adept at churning out better idiots.

sokhapkin
Premium
join:2003-05-08
Somerset, NJ


1 edit
reply to bcerhart
Never trust "unlimited" marketing scam All "unlimited" US plans (except for unlimited local PSTN calls) are LIMITED. Voicestick "unlimited", Verizon EVDO "unlimited"... Search BBR for other examples of "unlimited".

In most cases "unlimited" means "average Joe usage".

--
»www.callwithus.com


christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo

reply to bcerhart
Hey, if you all want to get legalistic about all this; "It helps having a wife who works as part of a large law firm"; no where in ANY of the promotions or advertisements when they use the word "UNLIMITED", does it include the word "MINUTES".

Almost every one I have seen, it says or implies "UNLIMITED CALLING". Now, some may argue that unlimited calling is the same as unlimited minutes. No, it's NOT. "Calling" and "Minutes" can mean 2 totally different things. "Calling" can mean that you aren't limited to certain days, times, locations, etc... i.e. You can call unlimited phone numbers anywhere in the United States or Canada. There is no place that you are limited to or restricted from.

The key is to focus on that most of these providers say "UNLIMITED CALLS" and NOT "Unlimited Minutes". Read it as you like. Interpret it as you like. The point is, it can be argued, and probably successfully, that unlimited calls does not mean the same as unlimited minutes. At least in a court of law Later... Mike....

mazilo
From Mazilo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
Lilburn, GA

reply to sokhapkin
said by sokhapkin See Profile :

In most cases "unlimited" means "average Joe usage".
FCC should punish those (VoIP/PSTN) telco that ONLY claim to provide an unlimited service.
--
Mazi (UK Non-Geo Phone: +44-703-194-2574)

bellhater
Premium
join:2003-10-08
canada


2 edits
When will the dictionary be updated on the word UNLIMITED from:
1. not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2. boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3. without any qualification or exception; unconditional.

to:

1. Does have limits.
2. unlimited till we say so
3. hit the road jack, 450 minutes is all you get.

I bet if you sue the companies that use the word, it is false and deceptive advertising and if the court is going to change the dictionary, then someone better call webster cause hes got it all wrong!

oh by the way, when you do go to court, be sure to bring the dictionary with you.


christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo

Don't know jsb. Most of the definitions you posted are being done. Just not to customer's liking. "Where" you call is NOT LIMITED, RESTRICTED, CONFINED. When and where you call is BOUNDLESS, INFINITE, VAST, UNLIMITED SKIES. They are also WITHOUT QUALIFICATION or EXCEPTION.

It is very easy to define "UNLIMITED CALLS" to mean that where and when you call is without limits. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending these providers. I myself have a 500 minute plan. I also understand that the average person is going to define unlimited to include "MINUTES USED". It just that we have seen "Fine Print" and such our whole lives. They are not doing anything that we haven't seen in the past.

I have yet to see a provider actually use the words "UNLIMITED MINUTES". On the other hand, using 10,000 minutes a month, is not NORMAL AVERAGE residential use. And, most providers separate residential from business usage. If you do use 10,000 minutes a month, then the provider is losing money. Until they print "Unlimited Minutes" I think they can define it the way they want. Later... Mike....


scots
Can we have Twinkies?
Premium
join:1999-12-06
Raleigh, NC
·AT&T U-Verse
·ooma
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage

said by christcorp See Profile :

I have yet to see a provider actually use the words "UNLIMITED MINUTES". On the other hand, using 10,000 minutes a month, is not NORMAL AVERAGE residential use. And, most providers separate residential from business usage. If you do use 10,000 minutes a month, then the provider is losing money. Until they print "Unlimited Minutes" I think they can define it the way they want. Later... Mike....
ViaTalk's web site actually says unlimited MINUTES: "The VT_Unlimited plan includes unlimited local and long distance calling minutes to anywhere in the U.S. and Canada."


christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
You are correct. They use "Unlimited Calling", but they do describe also "Calling Minutes". The questions begs then; has viatalk told anyone that they are "Using Too Many Minutes"? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm. Later... Mike...


CyberSultan
Premium
join:2006-07-20

reply to scots
said by scots See Profile :

ViaTalk's web site actually says unlimited MINUTES: "The VT_Unlimited plan includes unlimited local and long distance calling minutes to anywhere in the U.S. and Canada."
Except that their TOS then define what is meant by unlimited minutes in the context of normal residential usage:

"Service Use

You acknowledge that ViaTalk offers both plans for residential users and commercial/small business users. You agree that ViaTalk residential service plans are not to be used in conjunction with regular, consistent activity which could be considered commercial or for-profit in nature. You agree that all usage is subject to audit and review by ViaTalk. A single account shall not be used for purposes inconsistent with regular residential usage patterns as defined by ViaTalk as more than six times the average monthly usage of a ViaTalk residential customer. This figure is currently approximately 5100 minutes of usage over a 30 day period. ViaTalk will be the sole and final arbitrator in regards to decisions related to what constitutes acceptable average use of service. If ViaTalk finds that you are using a residential plan commercially or for operating a home office, we reserve the right to terminate service immediately or place your service on a commercial plan and bill your account the commercial rate."


RockyBB
Premium
join:2005-01-31
Longmont, CO

reply to bcerhart
I agree and empathize with you about the no-notice immediate service cancellation. But realistically, one could substitute any carrier's name in the title of this thread. To my knowledge not a single VOIP provider offers really really really unlimited calling minutes on a consumer account ($30/month or less)...they all have unpublished caps or limits. Just last week, the SunRocket forum had a similar thread »How many minutes are normal? , and a few months ago we heard about it with ViaTalk, and I'm sure we'll hear about it again. It is an industry standard practice to publish "unlimited" and not mean it. Everybody does it. I don't think it's right, but not one carrier cares what I think. On this issue of them inappropriately counting your minutes, realize that carriers pay for all minutes (in and out and forwarded) -- if you're up in the 2500 minute range and their costs are simply 1¢/minute, then they have already lost money on you.

sensfan2k6

join:2006-11-13
Beverly Hills, CA

1 edit
reply to bellhater
Voicestick is quite the SCAM. Unlimited until they deem otherwise and their support is non-existant. Canceled my account after 7 days and kept my $$$

Danny

sensfan2k6

join:2006-11-13
Beverly Hills, CA

1 edit
reply to bcerhart
Not sure who you were speaking with but Bruce Nicklin was quite rude and unprofessional as well. I attempted to contact someone else at i2telecome and they sound like they're running this out of a basement somewhere.
Danny

canam101

join:2005-02-18

reply to bcerhart
This complaint has been made before by other people who think they can get something for nothing, i.e., a business phone line for a residential price.

In another forum where this came up, the explanation as to why the service doesn't spell out the real limit, was that they don't want to make it too obvious what their profits are.

So they call it 'unlimited', which, for most people, it is. They make a big profit on some users and lose a bit on others, so they will probably put up with somebody who is costing them money, but not oo much money.

For the ones who really try to stick it to them, and then play lawyer, there is the fine print in the tos.
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