MPScan
Premium
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA
| reply to justin
Re: Hybrids
said by justin  :said by MPScan :It's going to be a blast when Why is it going "to be a blast"? You are THAT emotional about someone elses choice of transport that you'd be cheering any troubles they have?
I'm not emotional at all. If fact, I applaud the auto industry for pioneering this technology and attempting to refine it so that the typical consumer would choose an alternative fuel source.
However, I do believe that those car companies who have produced these hybrid vehicles have not been completely honest with the people who purchase them. If they were, they would have offered the option of an extended warranty which would cover replacement costs of the components of these vehicles which they know will wear out after their standard warranty has expired.
Honestly, I am simply a smart business guy who always does a cost/benefit analysis when making any major purchase. Frankly, I don't think that the hybrids that auto makers are pushing on us these days are the real solution to our energy woes. Hybrids are the "in thing" these days, but aren't the long term solutions.
The car companies know this. They also know that the products they have produced (which also offer federal tax credits) are short lived and are easily targeted to the masses.
The car makers know they can turn a short term profit at the long term expense of the consumer. They're not offering a real solution.
Just IMHO. |
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justin
Australian
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Brooklyn, NY
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2 edits | So you're not going to "have a blast" after all?
Anyway you should probably do some reading, unless you think Toyota is lying when they say:
quote:
"The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.”
It doesn't sound like these cars are "short lived" at all. Unless you think 180,000 miles with no deterioration is "short lived".
This isn't your cellphone or laptop here.
You can also look at the maintenance record for a 2001 prius taxi that did over 331k. Do you see a battery replacement there?
»www.hybridexperience.ca/Pages/im···scan.pdf |
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MPScan
Premium
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA
| I'm not in the position to debate "lab data" or some subjective evidence that Toyota hasn't replaced parts (on newer vehicles).
It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years.
I am not knocking the technology. I'm simply curious if their "lab data" actually proves to be true in the near future. |
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iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL | reply to MPScan
Actualy Hybrid technology have been around for a LONG time. And the Prius has actualy been sold starting in Japan in 1997 and has had no failures. |
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lotusracer
Premium
join:1999-11-26
Moline, IL
| reply to MPScan
said by MPScan : It's going to be a blast when, in the next year or two, the 1st gen hybrid's need battery replacements which aren't going to be cheap. There are many Prius owners on the Yahoo Prius list with several hundred thousand miles on their cars.... and with no hybrid battery problems.
Andrew Grant became well known for using a Prius as a taxi in Vancouver... ran it for over 200,000 miles. Toyota bought it back from him for testing and he bought a new Prius to take it's place!
One of many places you can read about him: »www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08···_wit.php
Don't think your wish for Prius battery failure is going to come true. |
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3SGTE
ST215W
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-23
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| reply to iLive4Apple
said by iLive4Apple :Actualy Hybrid technology have been around for a LONG time. As far as manufacturing experience goes, Toyota has decades of experience selling/manufacturing/maintaining electric vehicles (battery powered forklifts).
They are not 'new' to this.
--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
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dandeman
Premium,MVM
join:2001-12-05
Chapel Hill, NC
 ·AT&T Southeast
4 edits | reply to MPScan
said by MPScan :I'm not in the position to debate "lab data" or some subjective evidence that Toyota hasn't replaced parts (on newer vehicles). It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years. I am not knocking the technology. I'm simply curious if their "lab data" actually proves to be true in the near future. You might think about whether Boeing, NASA, IBM, Intel, Toyota, or any other high technology company has the luxury to wait for "real world" experience to know if a design is robust enough to survive its intended environment, before putting that design into production..
The cost of failure on a large project can easily break a large company financially given the scale of some of the projects these companies undertake. I've read that the R & D cost on the Prius was around $4 billion. What would you guess Boeing's R & D would on the 777 would be for example?
You better believe their "lab data" work has been done to know what the failure rate will be, otherwise they would be blindly betting the company.. I speak from personal experience from my first career as an electrical engineer at one of the above companies directly involved in reliability and product design quality.
Sure, every once in a while there's a highly publicized miss.. usually involving a new and previously unknown failure mechanism, e.g. foam striking the shuttle wing with enough force to penetrate for example.
Reliability engineering, and accelerated life testing methodologies have been around a long time. For example, the lowest level classification of reliability testing on electronic parts we did was to a 100,000 hour power on life cycle.. Without going into details to relate this to a vehicle life cycle, that's around a 10X factor to a vehicle lasting 200,000 miles..
btw in my second career, we engineer and install power plants that provide uninterrupted AC power to keep telephone systems and IT data centers running when the commercial power blinks. These systems use industrial battery systems that are warranted for 20 year life cycle, the lesser batteries to 10 years. Even what we sell as 3 year batteries are actually designed to a 10 year life cycle..
Do you really think Toyota is blindly betting their long hard earned reputation for producing quality products, risking major customer dissatisfaction and loss of market share?
Now some car companies have done that, but I believe the track record is that they pay dearly financially for being so careless or short sighted....
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burgermeister
All Computers Are Junk
join:2000-10-23
Utica, MI
1 edit | reply to MPScan
Re: Hybrids
said by MPScan :It's new technology. Nobody on here, no matter what you think, can actually account for real world experience. We're all in new territory. Frankly, we won't be in a position to evaluate the end results for a few more years. It is newer technology, no doubt. But if everyone were like you and didn't try new "unproven" technology, nothing would change.
As I hybrid owner, I purchased because I am concerned for the future. I didn't do it because it was the "in thing" nor did I do it simply to save money on gas; I did it to use less fuel and run a cleaner car -- and less fuel simply translates in the less $$$ at the pump, obviously. I wanted to spend my money on progressive technology and I'm willing to pay more to enable the development. After all, if nobody buys these cars (and future alternative fuel cars), no company would build them.
For the most part, hybrid owners are voting for change using their wallet. They put their money where there mouth is.
It's not always about the money.
You mentioned that you say what you say because you're a smart businessman. I say what I say because I am a smart resident of the planet and want to leave a smaller footprint. Hybrids may not be the final answer, but they're a step in the right direction. And I have no problem helping to finance development through my purchase. |
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iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL | reply to iLive4Apple
Yea and most people think Hybrids are way over priced. My Toyota Prius is not, its in the same price range as any other mid sized sedan is. I bought mine because it is cool, it can run with the electric motor only, saves money at the gas pump too. |
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lotusracer
Premium
join:1999-11-26
Moline, IL
| said by iLive4Apple :Yea and most people think Hybrids are way over priced. My Toyota Prius is not, its in the same price range as any other mid sized sedan is. I bought mine because it is cool, it can run with the electric motor only, saves money at the gas pump too. I think that most people see a fully loaded Prius (or other hybrid) and don't compare it to a similarly equipped "regular" car. When we bought our Prius new in 2001 a similarly equipped Corolla was only $1,000 more. The 'gee-whiz' fun factor of the Prius was well worth that alone. |
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iLive4Apple
Hybrid power
Premium
join:2006-07-13
Helena, AL
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| Yea Lol, thats why I bought it, but I did freak out when driving it off the lot ( gas enigne turned off and I thought it stalled)
I also do like the push button start too.
Wow so you had one of the first Prius car's to be sold in the US. Thats awsome! How is it running still, no battery failures or major problems? |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | And the early tax breaks for the hybrids were very good as well - effectively took the price for a lot of hybrids in the last 3 years to $10K but a lot of that did depend on the state and the state tax breaks... |
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lotusracer
Premium
join:1999-11-26
Moline, IL
| reply to iLive4Apple
Hybrids
said by iLive4Apple :Yea Lol, thats why I bought it, but I did freak out when driving it off the lot ( gas enigne turned off and I thought it stalled) When we test drove it, I had my wife pull it into the garage so she could see if she liked the feel of it.... since it was shaped differently than her boxy previous Nissan Sentra. She put it into park, but didn't think to shut the key off because the gas engine wasn't running. We got out, and as we walked around the car, it started up! Sure surprised us both. 
said by iLive4Apple :Wow so you had one of the first Prius car's to be sold in the US. Thats awsome! How is it running still, no battery failures or major problems? We are a long way from owning one of the first Prius in the US. I think that one of the earliest Prius owners on the Yahoo Prius list bought his car about 9 months earlier than us. Back then, you placed your order on the net, and then went into your Toyota dealer to finalize it and put $500 down. The car showed up 3 months later.
Ours is running great, with no major (or minor) problems. We've even still got the original 12 volt accessory battery in it. In the earlier Prius, it is quite common to kill the 12 volt accesory battery by leaving a door ajar overnight. Once you flatten that battery, it usually never comes back. It's similar to a riding lawnmower battery, and about it's only duty is to boot up the computer so the car will start off of the hybrid battery. I haven't seen any complaints about this in the 'newer' Prius, so perhaps they changed something. |
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