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pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA
 ·Mediacom
| reply to Nate425
Re: Skype now $29.95 a YEAR unlimited calls
Your argument still holds no weight.
You have to "buy" something to use ANY VoIP service. Period. Whether that comes in the form of a higher monthly rate (many are paying $29.95 plus per month) or some other form.
Most of the complaints I've seen relate to Skype's protocol being proprietary and it not being SIP-compliant. Big deal. I don't see anyone handing out free SIP boxes.
Skype doesn't tether you to a PC any more than your telco tethers you to your house to use your POTS line. | |
B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| said by pabster  :Most of the complaints I've seen relate to Skype's protocol being proprietary and it not being SIP-compliant. Big deal. I don't see anyone handing out free SIP boxes. There's no logical flow in that paragraph. "Proprietary" implies neither "free of cost" nor "for pay". The closed, proprietary software and closed, proprietary protocol means that not only don't you know what their software is doing on your computer or other device, you also don't know (and can't know) what it's transmitting or to where it's transmitting it and how secure it is from abuse by Skype or other parties. In addition, the non sequitur itself is arguably false as many VoIP providers do in fact hand out nominally "free" (bundled) or loaned SIP boxes with their paid service.
Skype doesn't tether you to a PC any more than your telco tethers you to your house to use your POTS line.
Uh, so it does require that your PC be on or that you have a funky handset that amounts to a PDA? And this for EVERY handset you wish to use at home? As far as I can tell the Linksys Skype phone product you have IS very much tethered to a PC, but the Netgear product is not.
I don't understand how such ridiculously fragile and expensive requirements can be compared to the ease with which any SIP adapter can be added to any telco-wired home in the world and make use of EXISTING or newly purchased traditional corded or cordless phone and accessories from thousands of manufacturers, all using an open and interoperable (where they let it) protocol, and one not reliant upon a single, benevolent dictator of a service, not to mention one with a history of innovation in spyware. As noted earlier, Skype seems to appeal to the same kind of willfully ignorant people that AOL did.
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA
·Mediacom
| said by B :said by pabster :In addition, the non sequitur itself is arguably false as many VoIP providers do in fact hand out nominally "free" (bundled) or loaned SIP boxes with their paid service. Ah, so you've proven my point, again. The "free" SIP adapter isn't really free, now is it? The cheapest regular VOIP service I could get would still cost 3X what Skype will for a year, and I think we both know which one wins on reliability. Uh, so it does require that your PC be on or that you have a funky handset that amounts to a PDA? And this for EVERY handset you wish to use at home? As far as I can tell the Linksys Skype phone product you have IS very much tethered to a PC, but the Netgear product is not. A funky handset? The Linksys CIT200 looks just like a modern cordless phone. In fact, most people don't even notice it is not. The WiFi phones are awesome, BTW. In a heavily WiFi covered area (large cities, for example) these can easily replace a cell phone for a fraction of the cost. I don't understand how such ridiculously fragile and expensive requirements can be compared to the ease with which any SIP adapter can be added to any telco-wired home in the world and make use of EXISTING or newly purchased traditional corded or cordless phone and accessories from thousands of manufacturers, all using an open and interoperable (where they let it) protocol, and one not reliant upon a single, benevolent dictator of a service, not to mention one with a history of innovation in spyware. I'm going to assume you're one of the open-source junkies I referenced earlier. If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to use a SIP adapter, go right ahead. I'll put the reliability of Skype up against a SIP-based system any day. As noted earlier, Skype seems to appeal to the same kind of willfully ignorant people that AOL did. If getting superior VoIP for a fraction of the cost makes me "willfully ignorant", so be it. | |
christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
 ·VOIPo
| Well, to start off with Skype in a way to make it somewhat equal to a normal SIP based voip system, where a PC isn't required, would cost approximately $250 to get started. That includes the phone and a year of Skype out/in service. After that, it would be about $70 a year for the service. (Assuming the prices stay about where they are).
Without the PC being on, wiring the house up for multiple phones isn't an option. Being able to adapt it to the many other POTS simulation needs like fax, directv, etc... is also not an option. (Again, without the PC portion involved).
Now, there are definitely some major advantages to Skype. If you are single, or want an auxillary phone, have the PC on all the time and it doesn't bother you, etc... Then Skype seems like a very good choice. If you were a college student living on campus where Wi-Fi is very available, the Skype Wifi would definitely be a great cell phone replacement. You could wonder all over camput and many of the local resturantes without issues. Definitely a plus. Even at $250, that's 6 months of cell service. However, it's not like you can get rid of the cell phone. People do go outside of campus and such, and the skype phone isn't going to be able to replace a cell phone totally.
So, if the PC isn't an issue for you, the Skype definitely appears to be a great choice. $30 for a decent USB phone and $53 for a year's worth of phone service. Can't beat that. If however the PC is an issue, then $250 for the first year isn't such a good thing. I realize that most of us pay that much for traditional voip, but there are many more advantages to traditional voip. "Most" adapters are reusable with another provider. Multiple phones/jacks/extra devices like fax/etc... are capable. So, dollar for dollar, the start up cost of Skype (PC FREE VERSION) and traditional VOIP is close to the same. It's just a matter of which one can offer you what you want. e.g. expandability, portability, 911, reliability, trust, etc... Excellent pro/con debate without fighting. Too cool. Later... Mike... | |
B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
1 edit | reply to pabster
said by pabster :said by B :said by pabster :In addition, the non sequitur itself is arguably false as many VoIP providers do in fact hand out nominally "free" (bundled) or loaned SIP boxes with their paid service. Ah, so you've proven my point, again. The "free" SIP adapter isn't really free, now is it? The cheapest regular VOIP service I could get would still cost 3X what Skype will for a year, and I think we both know which one wins on reliability. Really? 3 times the cost?? You wrote earlier that "full service" with Skype would run you about $6 per month. My current Sunrocket contract is about $7 per month ($7.29) for 2 years. And I have none of the many, many limits a Skype user has to endure. As to reliability, I'll take the reliability of my old corded phones any day over the kind of stuff you have to use with Skype. There's exactly one funky device between my old phone setup and my new one, and can add as many phones as I like for nearly ZERO cost. (Also, there's no "again"; as far as I recall that was my first post in this thread. If your "point" was that Skype hardware costs were comparable to SIP hardware costs, you certainly have NOT made it, even assuming no bundling. SIP: $50 adapter + $5-$20 per phone. Skype: $1,000 PC + $200 per phone.)
A funky handset? The Linksys CIT200 looks just like a modern cordless phone. In fact, most people don't even notice it is not.
The WiFi phones are awesome, BTW. In a heavily WiFi covered area (large cities, for example) these can easily replace a cell phone for a fraction of the cost. The point about the Skype-specific phones is that your choices are very limited, costly, and/or tethered.
Yes, that roaming ability of the WiFi phone sound interesting, assuming one has a casual attitude about using other people's access points and wireless networks without permission. If not, then coverage is awfully limited and/or expensive. (And frankly a PDA or PDA phone, running either a Skype or SIP soft client, seems like a MUCH more flexible solution for this sort of leeching.)
It's interesting to hear you and others say Skype is "superior" VoIP. While I understood that in-network Skype calls were always quite good, from the posts in this forum it had seemed that SkypeOut's quality was iffy at best, let alone "superior" to anything, and particularly bad since the free service was announced. And the PSTN is what it's all about...
Anyhow, continued good luck with Skype.
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY | reply to Agrajag
Here's a really good link for those wanting more info on Skype. Some good reading. Pros and Cons. Later... Mike....
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype | |
Agrajag
join:2005-04-04
Cherry Hill, NJ
1 edit | reply to elios
Like most things of this type, Skype is hardly flawless. People keep asking why one might not find it to be the best quality. At times I've had great conversations with it. At other times it's been hit-and-miss. I call Germany often with it and talk to guys at work with it. We like it but I've certainly had better POTS calls as well.
Additionally, have you ever tried talking to someone and sending a file to them via Skype's feature to do that? Best of luck. It's usually terrible. The smallest file takes forever to send and meanwhile the quality of the call drops way off. Also, on many calls, if the person you're talking to runs any application that involves some overhead, the call goes to hell. Granted you don't do that with VoIP but it's just another item in the list.
Again, I posted this not as a Skype fan or a critic but as a fan of any kind of competition. I would like to see phone technology finally evolve far more from where it's been for seemingly ever. The more people in the space pushing the envelope, and the price, the better even if some of those solutions aren't 100% apples-to-apples comparisons. | |
bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
 ·SureWest Internet
| reply to christcorp
said by christcorp :Now, there are definitely some major advantages to Skype. If you are single, or want an auxillary phone, have the PC on all the time and it doesn't bother you, etc... Then Skype seems like a very good choice. I work for a global company with over 1600 people. Over half use Skype on a weekly basis. Everyone in the company is issued a Lenovo Thinkpad and even with laptop's builtin mic the sound quality is superior to regular telephones -- even when making calls to the UK, Germany, India, China, Japan, etc. Full disclosure, if you are in a room with an echo then you need a headset or must position yourself near the laptop mic (I pack a small headset for use with cellphone). Our company has significantly cut telecom expenses without any new equipment or providers. Its easy to see why some businesses are jumping on Skype, integrated IM/phone/video, superior sound quality, and free in-network calls.
In my mind Skype complements telephones (traditional and VoIP), at this time it is not a phone replacement unless you are tech savvy. | |
elios
join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO
·Mediacom
| reply to Agrajag
i dont see what the big deal about having your PC on is i never turn mine off
calls sound fine to me and its dirt cheap compared to a pots line
if i want to send files ill use IRC
and all it takes is a bit a QoS on your router to keep other stuff on your network from choking it out | |
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs: | I try to keep mine off to conserve electricity. | |
76766337
join:2004-09-26
Riverside, IL
|  reply to christcorp
Skype is not (yet) currently designed to replace old style legacy VOIP service such as Vonage, SunRocket, ViaTalk or Packet8. Skype is an adjunct service.
Would I purchase one of the new Non-PC based DECT Skype phones for $200, or course not. These phones are just being introduced into the market, there will be improvements and with competition the price will drop.
For the time being I am perfectly satisfied with SunRocket, it is cheap as dirt and convenient.
Would I purchase a dedicated Skype WI-FI phone for $200? Of course not. Again, these phones are just being introduced and they do not have browser authentication which limits their use. In addition the price of the phones will drop like a rock and at some point in the future they will be sold in bubble packs in Supermarket checkout lanes as semi-disposable phones with included SkypeOut minutes.
I do have Skype installed on a Pocket PC which I rarely use to make PSTN calls (I use my cell phone) while in the United States. Traveling outside of the United States is another matter and I frequently use Skype so as to make and receive PSTN calls from my Pocket PC.
Currently, I am in front of my PC at home. Would I use Skype to make a PSTN call, maybe, maybe not, it depends. I have an Herman Miller Aeron chair and I am constantly changing sitting positions depending upon my mood. If I am leaning back in my chair with my feet resting on my desk, I may use Skype to make a PSTN call simply because I don't feel like changing positions and reaching for the phone so as to make a call. The quality is the same and the cost is negligible so I am indifferent. On the other hand if I were planning a conference call with several people I would almost always use Skype due to the convenience. In addition if I am speaking with someone over the PSTN and we both have Skype, we will frequently hang up and switch to Skype simply for the improved fidelity and convenience.
Many people have the silly idea that they must use a headset with Skype, not so! Simply let Skype adjust your audio devices and you will have zero feedback. I currently have my microphone positioned literally 6 inches from my right speaker and there is no echo. In addition, I can and have literally walked 40 feet away from my microphone and speakers and continued in conversation, the sensitivity of the microphone while using Skype is simply amazing.
Skype is very different animal with a very unique economic model. It's benefits are not obvious until you use it. Try it Mikey, you will like it. 
--
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left. Do not be be hectoring or arrogant. Those who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid or insane. Nobody needs to be described as silly;let your analysis prove it. | |
76766337
join:2004-09-26
Riverside, IL
1 edit |  reply to bbarrera
There you go, I could not have said it better myself.
If you check the "Let Skype adjust my sound devices settings" under tools/options/sound devices in Skype then you should be problem free. | |
macaholic
Premium
join:2003-08-31
Jackson Heights, NY
| reply to 76766337
low quality or not... it saved my bacon in Europe when my cell phone did not work... it well worth the cost just for emergency situations and then some..
Ben
--
"You don't subject minority rights to a referendum." Justice Minister Irwin Cotler of Canada | |
ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs:
·VOIPo
·Metrocast Communic..
·AT&T DSL Service
·ViaTalk
| reply to pabster
said by pabster : I don't see anyone handing out free SIP boxes. How much does it cost to download Asterisk? | |
Wild Goose
join:2006-12-03
| reply to Agrajag
I will just say that I am among those that hates the idea of needing to have the computer on to use the phone. My experience has been that computers are not that reliable - for example, I have an external USB drive and if I turn it on the whole computer freezes up for about 3-4 seconds. And then there's the question of what happens if the computer crashes in the middle of a call.
Some people have made the FALSE claim that there are hardware adapters that work independently of the computer. These people would have you believe that they are the rough equivalent of a Linksys PAP-2 or a Sipura device. But they are not. There is a HUGE difference - every single one of them requires a USB port connection! There is not a single one that directly connects to a router. Now, say it with me kids, what do we need to have turned on to have a working USB port? Yes, that's right, a COMPUTER. And not just ANY computer will do. If you look in the technical specifications for these devices, you will always read something like "Minimum System Requirements: Windows® XP SP2 or Windows 2000 SP4, Skype™ Software Version 1.1.079 or Higher, 25MB Hard Disk Space, CD-ROM Drive, USB Port (1.10)" (those are for the D-Link device but other units have similar requirements). How many of the things on that list do I need to have for any VoIP provider that uses a hardware ATA? Exactly zero. If I have a Linux computer, or no operating computer at all, I can still use service from one of those commercial VoIP companies we talk about here.
Some people obviously have different standards - that is fine and bless you all. But, I want a telephone to look and work like a telephone. I don't want to have to fiddle with volume levels or mess with some software client when I want to make a call, I want to pick up the phone and dial. I do not want to have to turn a computer on first, or wait for it to finish a virus scan or defrag or whatever it may be doing that's eating CPU cycles like crazy. And I most assuredly do not want to pay for an external device that in the end is still dependent on a computer in order to function - if I need to have the computer on, I might as well use the infernal softphone client, and that isn't going to happen!
And I don't care if the connection is CD quality in 5.1 audio - in fact I don't want that, who needs to hear a mouse relieving itself in the next room when you are trying to communicate information? Granted I wouldn't mind a little better audio quality, but not if it makes it harder to place a phone call or demands that the computer be turned on, running a specific piece of software, and have the audio set just so.
Show me just one Skype adapter that does NOT use a USB connection, AND does NOT require that a computer running Windows be operating, and I may retract some of my above comments. But for me, Skype is of absolutely zero interest - I didn't use it when it was totally free and I'm not going to use it now! | |
christcorp
Premium
join:2001-05-21
Cheyenne, WY
·Bresnan Online
·VOIPo
| reply to macaholic
Not saying anything about it's usefulness. I believe that is a given by all people. I think the main thing being debated if Skype is up to Par with other voip providers and services, and as such a viable option. On vacations, business trips, etc... probably any type of softphone would be a good thing to have. Or, as I do, bring a small PAP2 and wireless bridge so I can still get voip without my PC. That seems to be the debate. Skype is somewhat better than a traditional softphone because with money, you can get a Wifi version. Again, I do this with PAP2. On a broader scope, beyond the occasional business trip or vacation, I still don't see Skype as a better alternative to traditional voip like vonage, packet8, sunrocket, viatalk, etc.... Later... Mike.... | |
B
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-28
| reply to Wild Goose
Well said, Wild Goose. I agree with everything except the "CD quality" dismissal -- sometimes you WANT to hear that mouse doing its business, and any increase in quality or sense of being-there is a good thing.
What's weird is that there aren't any such ATA-analogous adapters -- if they can do it in a standalone no-PC-required handset like the Netgear WiFi handset, why not an ATA-workalike (that we all know would really just be a small PC or PDA mated to an FXS port) too?
-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function | |
76766337
join:2004-09-26
Riverside, IL | reply to Agrajag
For your perusal. New Skype Video WI-FI phone coming from Philips.
»img187.imageshack.us/img187/5364···evc0.jpg | |
pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA | reply to ptrowski
How much does it cost for the PC to run it on?
And how much am I going to shell out to pay someone to actually configure it?  | |
bbarrera
Premium,MVM
join:2000-10-23
Sacramento, CA
clubs:
·SureWest Internet
| reply to christcorp
said by christcorp :I think the main thing being debated if Skype is up to Par with other voip providers and services, and as such a viable option. Well from my perspective that is not debatable, Skype is relied upon by businesses just like POTS and VoIP.
Honestly it seems your argument is less "up to Par" and more "I want to replace POTS with VoIP that uses ATA to hookup my POTS compatible phones." You've taken a reasonable position about requirements as it is (relatively) simple to use and setup ATA based VoIP phones. Mind you my parents aren't comfortable plugging anything into a router so they will stick with POTS. My business phone is delivered over Surewest fiber and even simpler, the installer just connected the home gateway box on the side of the house to my existing phone wiring, of course I can't take it with me like traditional VoIP but that is why I have a cellphone for US calls and Skype for International biz calls (free, they have Skype).
I think we can all agree Skype doesn't meet your requirements at this time although it is clearly moving in that direction.
While I understand your position I don't agree with it. On business trips I bring a laptop and cellphone (usb charger) and tiny headset, everything needed to communicate with the world. My cellphone is my vmail hub, all calls (office, cell and Skype) not picked up in a couple of rings are forwarded to cellphone vmail. I don't want or need a VoIP provider that adds unnecessary baggage (the small PAP2 and wireless bridge you mentioned). Another great thing is Skype works on Windows, Mac OSX and Linux. Sometimes I travel with my MacBook Pro and it has integrated camera which allows for video chats with the wife and kids from just about anywhere in the world I get a decent broadband connection (90% of hotels I stay in).
I make calls from Skype to POTS phones and sound quality is much better than cellphone and similar to POTS. | |
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