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imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

[Line Problem] Cant upgrade but im close enough

So i have had 3.0 speeds at my place before but now i only have 1.5. I try to upgrade and they say no cause of my line test

Trunk Status IS-NR

DSL Down
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 57
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 11
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 17
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 2880
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 1536
Cell Count 2378820949

DSL Up
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 53
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 16
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 1
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 15
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 800
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 384
Cell Count 678814042

So what do those tests mean.

I know were the co with the dsl is at. I only live about 3 blocks from there.
The co distance check from this site shows this

Tehama, Red Bluff
CA 96080
Phone: 530-527-XXXX

about 1120 feet

Wire center (CO)
RDBLCA01

My modem is a 4100
Is there anything i can do on my end to improve these readings and be able to upgrade.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7
Something is strange here.

This: "Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24" means that your line is relatively short. Short enough that it should qualify for any speed plan. BTW, the line distance estimator here at DSLReports is very approximate and almost always grossly underestimates the actual wire distance, but that attenuation reading agrees with a short loop length estimate.

This: "Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 17" means your modem isn't even using all the power available to it. It could go up to 20.0 dBm if it needed a better signal at your phone jack.

This: "Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 2880" means your line simply can't handle 3008 sync speeds, but that is in extreme disagreement with what a typical 24.0 dB line attenuation can do.

Is there any chance that you have the modem wire plugged into t the wrong side of one of the dual-jacked, microfilters? I'm trying to see why your line's potential speeds are so anomalously low.


David
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The other thing I am curious about is why is your capacity so high? 57% at 1536 and according to the modem 100% would be 2800. That seems to be a bit high (or low) for a line that has a 24db signal attenuation. my first thought would be a really old or bad modem. I have seen really bad wiring inside a premise do this as well. Although i will have to agree with d_l See Profile as well, you don't have it plugged into the phone side of the filter do you?

WCS is plug it in at the nid and see if you can get a reading from outside (depending on modem).
--
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d_l
Barsoom
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join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7
David See Profile at the time I wrote the above, the wrong side of a microfilter was all I could think of that might cause the strange conditions, but with more thought I concluded that phone side of the filter would raise the attenuation much higher than 24.0 dB so I don't favor that idea now.

If a passive problem (something like a wrongly connected filter) isn't the problem, then maybe an active and continuous RFI source is cutting down the line's maximum capacity. This sort of problem wouldn't affect the attenuation.

The modem maximum sync tool: »SBC DSL FAQ »How can I check for the maximum attainable sync speeds with a 5100b/4100 modem? might show if something like this was the problem. The tone bin loads might have a "chewed up" or even a "picket fence" look if there was an interference problem.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 2608
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690

Bit tones with notches/missing bits:

bit(s) 38 163.875 - 168.1875 KHz
bit(s) 51:52 219.9375 - 228.5625 KHz
bit(s) 62 267.375 - 271.6875 KHz
bit(s) 110 474.375 - 478.6875 KHz
bit(s) 113:115 487.3125 - 500.25 KHz
bit(s) 142:255 612.375 - 1104 KHz

»www.hostmystuff.net/myimage/albu···blin.png

there is the info from my tech readout but i have no clue what I'm seeing other than the max rates.

i checked the phone plug and its plugged in correctly. One thing i noticed is the phone line to modem goes under the flouresent lights in the room. Would that affect this.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7
reply to imsystem
It might, especially if the connecting cord is of a flat (untwisted wire), satin type. If it is causing interference, it would have to be forcing all your download tone bins to the left of the potential frequency range.

Otherwise that chart looks fairly normal for the 1536/384 speeds. There is no "picket fence" effect that would have explained the anomalously low max attainable sync speeds as compared to your low attenuation. At least the tool, pretty much confirms the max rates that were reported to you (note the tool will always err on the conservative side of the max attainable speeds). If the tool knew that your modem was only using 17.0 dBm out of 20.0 dBm possible, it could probably be much closer in its estimated max speed.

Maybe you could test your line stats at your NID: »AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How to check modem stats, synch rates & speeds from test jack at the NID. to see if there is any improvement there. That would eliminate any problems your inside wiring might be causing.


David
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I would try it at the NID/SNI/MPOE (gray test jack) at the interface, and re-run the above test. Least then the NID/SNI/MPOE would be where you would meet the AT&T network before hitting your own IW.

I would give that a shot and see what you get, if it's really that close then this test should differ a great deal (capacity going lower, noise margin increases, etc. etc.).

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
so if i test at nid and the capacity drops and noise margin raises i have a problem with in home wiring. but if it stays the same its a problem on the outside line.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7
reply to imsystem
If the IW is picking up RFI, noise margin would go up as well as max sync capacity; however, the bin chart didn't give much indication of a noisy line.

Attenuation might drop very slightly. Yours is already so low that isn't the problem though.

Basically the NID test can rule out your IW as a problem.

Also you might check the modem's log for the hybrid number it is using: »SBC DSL FAQ »What do the hybrid numbers mean and what do they tell you about your line? I would expect it to be using either 1 or 2 which would be typical, but who knows, maybe your strange conditions might show up as a 3 or 4.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
2007/01/09 21:45:50 GMT E |DSL |HYBRID 3

according to the link you sent me. I understand that means there is a bridge outside of my home and i should call an at&t tech. Is that correct. If so will that cost me any money to have fixed.i haven't yet hooked up to the nid. However the line i have plugged into modem now is wired directly to the nid. I ran the test on this line and i still only get 2800 dwn and 765 up for maxes.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7
reply to imsystem
If a bridged tap exists beyond your NID and if AT&T removes it, they pay for the removal charge. That hybrid 3 info will give the techs here such as David See Profile more to work with to determine why your line has such a low max sync potential.

If you run the NID test, be sure to check that the hybrid 3 is still in use. Although it isn't common, a #3 hybrid condition could still be caused by inside wiring if the inside wire runs were long enough. I can't conceive of +300-foot long wiring runs within a private residence, but I suppose anything is possible.

On the other hand, if the bridge tap is inside your house causing the #3 hybrid, the NID test should really show improved results because testing at the test jack would disconnect that bridged tap from the network.

If you have multiple inside phone wires all connecting at the NID, then your inside wiring is making short bridged taps too. Ideally DSL needs a continuous wire pair from the DSLAM to your modem without any branches or stubs off that one pair. Each time the wire branches, you have another bridged tap.


David
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reply to imsystem
said by imsystem:

so if i test at nid and the capacity drops and noise margin raises i have a problem with in home wiring. but if it stays the same its a problem on the outside line.
That would be correct for the first part, 2nd part could be distance and other issues. That the field tech would be able to determine further.
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

1 edit
thanks for all the help and info guys. I posted in the direct forum with all this info asking about the bridge and getting it removed.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

1 edit
said by d_l:

If you have multiple inside phone wires all connecting at the NID, then your inside wiring is making short bridged taps too. Ideally DSL needs a continuous wire pair from the DSLAM to your modem without any branches or stubs off that one pair. Each time the wire branches, you have another bridged tap.
I overlooked this part when i read your reply. I did notice when i opened the box to see were the test port was that there was 2 separate phone lines run to the line 1 side. One line went one way powering all the phones in the home. The second one went into the computer room wall jack powering one phone and modem. So that might be the bridge. If so how do i tie in both those lines without causing a bridge.


NormanS
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2 edits
Click for full size
DSL Splitter at the NID.
If you have a CAC-7600 style NID, you get a sled module DSL Splitter, and you install it in the NID.

If your NID box is more like mine, you get a DSL filter like mine. You move the wire pair running to the telephones from the NID to the splitter, attaching them to the "Voice" pair of terminals in the splitter. You move the wire pair running to the modem from the NID to the "DATA" pair of terminals in the splitter. You take about one foot of CAT 3 phone cable and use the Line 1 pair (blue/blue-white trace) to connect the pair in the NID to the "Network" pair in the splitter.

See the screen shot for details.

P.S. Here is a link to a source:

»www.hometech.com/techwire/dsl.html

Last two items on the page. One unit made by Suttle, the other made by Corning.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

2 edits
I am not quit understanding what your saying. My box is bigger then those and has spots for 2 separate phone lines. Yet only line one is hooked up now not line 2. I don't have the spare money to buy new boxes to mount outside like that. There has got to be another way to remove the two lines coming from iw to box to make 1. Maybe tomorrow when i am out at box ill take pictures of the set up.

Another thing i noticed was there was only 2 wires each the red and green hooked up to the nid from my iw. Should all 4 be hooked up.

ADDED

i decided to check the other phone jacks filters. 1 had the phone hooked into the data side and 1 had not filter. So i changed the one and added filter to other and my results went up for max

Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 3464
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690

Bit tones with notches/missing bits:

bit(s) 38:43 163.875 - 189.75 KHz
bit(s) 139:255 599.4375 - 1104 KHz

and new stats

SN Margin (dB) 18.5 -
Line Attenuation (dB) 22.5 -
Loss of Signal 0 -
Loss of Frame 0 0
CRC Errors 1 2

db came up some thats good right. I still get a hybrid 3 in logs though Hope i can isolate that tomorrow when i hook directly to test port

can somone that knows explain
Bit tones with notches/missing bits:

i notice now there is only 2 of them


d_l
Barsoom
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join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
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2 edits
reply to imsystem
If you have this:

        ----DSL
/
----NID
\
----phones


then you have an inside wire, bridged tap. Unless the two wire legs together are well over 50 feet long in total, then they aren't causing your hybrid 3 condition. I think it is possible that the modem could see both a bridged tap for a hybrid 2 AND one for a hybrid 3, but would only report the hybrid 3. This is why we urged you to test at the NID. A NID test simplifies the wiring of your connection.

If you have the above wiring arrangement, you may have to install a splitter (or a microfilter) at the NID to divide the DSL side from the POTS side. This will eliminate the inside wire, bridged tap condition.

Your latest stats would probably be barely good enough for the Pro speeds. The line needs a little excess capacity over the 3008 sync speed to compensate for the occasional line noise problems.

Edit: Don't worry about the occasional missing tone bin. We all have them and they are caused by stray EMI/RFI. DSL is designed to work around a few missing bins.


wayjac
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join:2001-12-22
Indy
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reply to imsystem
Does your NID look like this one The line that connects all the phones in the home, needs to be isolated from the line that connects the computer room phone and modem.

The computer room phone will still need a microfilter connected.

At the NID you can use a microfilter to isolate the line that connects all the phones in the home.
--
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NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
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1 edit
reply to imsystem
said by imsystem:

I am not quit understanding what your saying. My box is bigger then those and has spots for 2 separate phone lines. Yet only line one is hooked up now not line 2. I don't have the spare money to buy new boxes to mount outside like that.
Then you probably have the CAC-7600 type NID. It has "sled" modules, as shown by Wayjac. You can obtain a "sled" module which is a DSL splitter. Same site that I linked.

If you can't afford the price of a DSL splitter, there are people who have reported success by kluging a microfilter inside of the box. Again, Wayjac shows a screen shot of how to do it.

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

3 edits
ok my box is not like that either. But from the new pictures i understand whats being talked about.

link to picture of my box
»www.hostmystuff.net/myimage/albu···0box.jpg


/1 phone
----
/ \DSL
----NID
\
----phones
the above is how I am set up now. Unfortunately I am unable to isolate that phone sharing the dsl side.

I will be testing at the nid test jack in the next 30 minutes and will edit this post with the results.

Testing at nid info below

+000 days 00:05:13 E |DSL |HYBRID 2

Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 7780
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690

Bit tones with notches/missing bits:

bit(s) 43:58 185.4375 - 254.4375 KHz
bit(s) 114 491.625 - 495.9375 KHz

SN Margin (dB) 26.5 -
Line Attenuation (dB) 24.0 -
Loss of Signal 0 -
Loss of Frame 0 0
CRC Errors 1 2

now if i remove the phone on the dsl line and wire a filter at the nid should that bring my stats up like this or close to in in home. or will only a splitter do that. Also if i filter it at the box will that be good for all my in house phones or do i still need a filter at each location.
Lastly if i do this either way do i need the newer wires or can just the red green wires work.


wayjac
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join:2001-12-22
Indy
kudos:1

2line_nid
A splitter or microfilter will result in line stats like you get from the nid test. Using a microfilter at the NID will eliminate the need for microfilters at all phone except the one near the modem.

You must isolate that phone near the modem.
A 2 port microfilter will do that.

Take a spare 2 port microfilter to the NID, check to see if both RJ11 plugs will attach to the microfilter.
Which pair of wires connects the computer room phone and modem.... red/green or yellow/black
--
God bless our troops


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7

1 edit
reply to imsystem
Here are some examples of microfilters used as a splitter if you can't afford the $25-50 to buy a POTS splitter.

»Networking Forum FAQ »How can I make my own splitter?
»AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »I don’t have a splitter. Can I use an in-line filter for a home run?

The microfilter isn't as weather resistant or as environmentally durable as a POTS splitter and may fail after a while, but you have spares to replace any that die on you.

Edit: I'm astonished that all your inside wiring added up to be equivalent to a hybrid 3. For testing purposes, I tried to make a hybrid 3-level bridge tap on my line with some reels of spare wire that I have. I never could get the modem to see all that bridge tap I added to the line.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
the lines to dsl and all phones use red and green. I already wired in a filter at nid as you guys were posting. My new stats in home are a bit better then at the nid test port.


2007/01/11 20:31:00 GMT E |DSL |HYBRID 2

SN Margin (dB)28.0-
Line Attenuation (dB)24.0-
Loss of Signal0-
Loss of Frame00
CRC Errors12

Downstream Maxrate (Estimated): 8028
Upstream Maxrate (Estimated): 690

Bit tones with notches/missing bits:

bit(s) 42:53 181.125 - 232.875 KHz
bit(s) 56 241.5 - 245.8125 KHz

Looks good enough for elite speed correct.

also still one question remains. If i go buy a splitter do i need different wiring? Or will the yellow/black/green/red work. Cause after wiring in this filter i do realize this is only a temp fix and not a long term one.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7

2 edits
reply to imsystem
Clear up your inside wiring problem and your line looks like it can handle Elite easily. (Edit: It was just pointed out to me that your max upload speed wouldn't qualify. I wasn't even paying attention to that metric in your posts. I believe the tool isn't correctly estimating your upload speeds because your upload output power levels are so low as seen in your original post, but those stats say that the line would barely make it for full upload speeds.) If you end up with a Hybrid 2 after adding a splitter or microfilter, it isn't going to hurt your Elite speeds so it wouldn't matter.

A microfilter may be temporary or one might last a long time. We've heard about them lasting for several years or more.

Could you post a photo of the wiring in your NID so we have a better understanding of what you will work with? Also if you use a splitter or a microfilter, it would be best to have only the DSL modem on the DSL line. The layout you posted above of your lines would defeat the purpose of a splitter.

You should be able to use the existing wire to the DSL modem if you limit that line to DSL only. Some people use new Cat5e or Cat3 cable to minimize the influx of RFI into their DSL line, but with your signal strength that really wouldn't be necessary.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA

1 edit
Click for full size
box closed cant see filter
Click for full size
filter tuked in
Click for full size
filter pulled out to see wiring
ok i understand now.
I wish i had seen those links you posted before i did mine though. See i thought about just plugging the filter into test port but instead i cut the connector off the filter and made a wire to wire connection. One more question in the link for making your own splitter it shows 2 inline filters. Why is that? and is that important?

Also do you think i Am ok to order the elite package with no problems or them canceling the order.

[edit]
got the order question answered in the att direct forum so im all set guys. Thanks to all of you that contributed info and answers. If not for you guys i probably would have broken something.


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7

1 edit
reply to imsystem
I edited my last post to point out that your max attainable upload speeds seemed like they might be low in the first stats you posted. Maybe too low for Elite.

Why don't you post another set of stats here along with the readings/chart from the Speedstream tool so we can see what your line looks like with those modifications? You can post the chart here directly by saving a copy to your HD and then uploading it.

If those readings look good, then ask a tech for another official line reading from their end to be certain their max stats equal or exceed ours.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
thank you d_l in fact as we were typing here the tech helping me in att-direct forum did the line test from his side. The results were better then mine from home. He informed me that i would qualify for elite. So i am going to att.com now to order the upgrade.

DSL Down
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 17
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 27
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 7
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 8128
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 1536
Cell Count 2691532649

DSL Up
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 44
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 23
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 2
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 14
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 992
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 384
Cell Count 733446139

looks much better then before rewire.

DSL Down
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 57
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 11
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 17
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 24
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 2880
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 1536
Cell Count 2378820949

DSL Up
Relative Capacity Occupation (0 - 100%) 53
Noise Margin (-64 to 63 dB) 16
Transmitted Signal Power (-31 to 31 dBm) 1
Signal Attenuation (0 to 127 dB) 15
Max Attainable Bit Rate (Kbps) 800
Current Bit Rate (Kbps) 384
Cell Count 678814042


AlphaOne
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Marvelous!

Congratulations, you'll have Elite in no time!

IF you ever had a tech visit your NID, I'd like to see his reaction on how you wired that microfilter.
--

something incredible is waiting to be known - Carl Sagan


d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
kudos:7

2 edits
reply to imsystem
If you decide to stick with the microfilter or if you replace it with a POTS splitter, you might want to redo those splices you made with splicing "peanuts" to make them more permanent. See this thread for photos of the peanuts: »Residential Install with PICTURES!!!!! I used the yellow ones (rather than reds) on my splices. You can buy them at Radio Shack or Home Depot.

I'm glad you could get your max attainable up to the levels that your attenuation was saying it should be at. Your thread here may become a classic example of how much "damage" complicated inside wiring can do to the potential speed of a line.

imsystem

join:2004-04-02
Red Bluff, CA
No based on the results i seen and the fact we are adding a new phone jack to were the pc will be moved. I plan on getting a splitter in a few months.