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whocares
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join:2003-07-26
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| reply to signmeuptoo
Re: THANK YOU all
and to all as signmeuptoo stated,There are some divergent opinions on the lightning topic, reality is you will have to decide what to listen to.
ALL of US[/b[ on this board with its many different forums & millions of questions & ""opinions" about different subjects,listen & look for others trying to find the same answers,and [b]trying to make our own best decision,what works for one may not work for another
THANK YOU everyone for shareing your knowledge, jazzy
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
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| reply to whocares
Re: protection against electrical surge-(lightning)
Guys, let's stay on track here and talk on the topic. I don't like that I was misunderstood and scolded as I was when he could have IMd me and all, but forget it happened and let's make this a good thread.
Jazzy: There are some divergent opinions on the lightning topic, reality is you will have to decide what to listen to. Over in the electronics forum, for instance, some argued that a meter based surge arrester had advantages while others backed installing a breaker panel arrester. As is true throughout life, there will always be opposing opinions that ALL have merit and justification.
The most important thing is to make a grounding system based on the NEC (US National Electrical Code) outlined as best for surge arresters, install at least one surge arrester for the high V's and one for the low V's, install one at your telephone NID, and do the best you can for how well you ground your TV cable. I do not know of any arresters for Coaxial connectivity, but there are still outlet based surge protectors that have coaxial connectors. Some CAN slow down your internet bandwidth, so get one that is approved for internet use.
I, my own self, have only one option for lightning: I have to unplug stuff, the house is really old and bad and I don't own it and I refuse to work on the house because, well, of the landlord, I don't want to get in huge legal trouble.
I don't want to profess to be an uber professional. Yeah, I went to college and studied electronics. I worked in Silicon Valley AND the National Labs. I used to work directly under a Master Electrician. But the truth to tell, there are guys here with more experience and knowledge than me and I defer to them. I regret any conflicts. Perhaps if I stop posting here and leave DSLR there won't be any more flames and fights. Maybe I deserve to be yelled at, but I had no ill intentions with my words. If Ziggy wants to IM me and discuss this further he is welcome to, and I apologize for anything I have done wrong that I don't realize.
Have a great day guys.
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whocares
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1 edit | reply to Andromeda451
said by Andromeda451  :Q: What is Joule? A: A joule is 1 W dissipated in 1 second, aka 1 Watt/second. I know i had to ask the same question & some GOOD FRIENDS here & other sites help me figure "some of it out",
i was thinking that a joule was the "thing a ma jug" that connects to the "whats ya ma calls its" to make the "do dobber" go king klang,bing bong
but seriously
Vamp,TwistedLefty,novaflare, THANK YOU for the help & information[/b]
& i agree when someone is asking a questions or anytime personal attack aren't warranted.
a person ask questions to LEARN,& to learn one must ask questions. jazzy
p.S.novaflare,if a direct hit,won't have to worry about the computer,I'll be dead from the explosion of the oxygen tank bottles,
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IGGY
No Guru Just Here To Help
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-30
Chatham, IL
| reply to Martinus
I think if you will look one we could get in a very interesting discussion about that member. Two I think if you would take the time to be less critical and actually be of some help. You would see a few things. One that article is a very good one and states exactly what some of the members here have ( several months before they said it here ). I also think if you will take the time to look further. I have been a member here for many years. I've provide more than my share of help to many forum members. But it is people like yourself and those that state to just Google it that have run me out of the forums. If you will have an even further look. You will see many of my articles discuss threads here. Many of my bookmark pages also lead back to this site.
I think with over 1.5 million page views last year and being written about by major and not so major websites and online / offline writers over the years. I'm more than entitled to feel my site and what is written there is valid enough to be linked here.
Your personal attack definitely shows you have a bias and and an axe to grind. You have also done exactly what shouldn't have been done. You have taken away from the exact purpose of this thread. Which is to help people. Nothing new around here. Which is exactly why I've spent less time within the forums the past year or so.
Guess you missed the links towards the bottom of the article leading to other opinions on the subject? Very relevant opinions that would help others to make up their own opinion on the subject. Don't talk to me about shill this or that. My reputation stands alone. I don't BS anyone - I'll tell you like it is straight up. Always have and always will. Maybe if you bothered to have a real look at my site you would see that. Yes there are ads there so what. There are here to if you not logged in. Does that make this site a shill for the products displayed in the Google ads? You have no right to question my integrity.
I guess only the chosen ones in the forums get to link to their work Only the ones you approve get to share their opinion in an offsite link? No I'm not going to just copy and paste my opinion from the article here. That would be stupid for multiple reasons.
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tlb99
join:2006-09-08
united state
3 edits | reply to Andromeda451
When we get storms here I use to just unplug the phone line and also the power cord. I don't use dialup at all anymore so I don't have to do phone cord. Also it's a good idea to just unplug everything completely including any broadband modems, routers, and possibly any audio systems that plug into your sound card although I don't know about the latter. | |
Andromeda451
join:2004-04-08
Queen Creek, AZ | reply to heels_fan
Q: What is Joule?
A: A joule is 1 W dissipated in 1 second, aka 1 Watt/second. | |
whocares
Premium
join:2003-07-26
.. | reply to Cheese
am presently using 'surge protectors & have been for last 5 yrs,but now i find out, theres a better way thanks to FRIENDS, sharing their knowledge with me,jazzy | |
Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
clubs: | reply to whocares
»ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electr···9701.pdf | |
Martinus
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join:2001-08-06
EU
4 edits | reply to IGGY
said by IGGY :Google is not your friend. Who is your friend is someone who will take the time to give you solid honest advice with no BS and spin. I could go on but my point is this. A help forum is a place where people are supposed to get help. Not told to go Google it or spend hours banging their head against a wall in an FAQ. Especially when many people won't even link to the relevant content included within that FAQ. That comment is way out of line and you should know that.
said by IGGY :Uninterruptible Power Supply ( UPS ) do you have one - Iggy Uncensored. That article has my thoughts on the subject along with a few links to other opinions. This topic is one of those that can get heated. It is also one where you will see varying degrees of opinion. Not everyone can afford to have their home rewired or invest in a whole protection system. At the very least if you can afford it you should have a high quality UPS device protecting components. » iggyz.com/blog/_archives/2007/3/···118.html Nobody here questions your shameless plug and you criticise a fellow member for including a link to Google after he has written four posts in this thread with valuable information?
"Iggy Uncensored", how cheesy is that? What's next, "Iggy Unrated"?
C'mon IGGY , you used to be good.
edit: added content | |
novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
Premium
join:2002-01-24
Barberton, OH
| reply to dadkins
Re: protection against poert surge-(lightning)
Only thing with a hope of stopping lighting is a whole house lightening arrestor. Even this wont help with a direct hit also wont help less your house is properly grounded. Simply put it the lightening hits the line in to your house or the pole your on you have at best a 50 50 chance of your stuff makeing it with out damage.
Now a best in class battery back up (xxxxva for xxxxva) with built in surge arrestor and whole house ligtening arrestor and good groun can turn that 50 50 in to more like 75% chance of your stuff surviving. My measly 300 va battery back up cost me damn near 300 bucks new. We have a whole house litenging arrestor replaced once and i had to replace my my ups as well. Nothing was damaged that was hooked up to the back up (acctually a few of them) but my cable tv box got smoked really nicely it was not on the back up.
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whocares
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join:2003-07-26
..
| reply to TwistedLefty
wow thank you 2k, now I know or "think" i know what to hook up to the UPS, jazzy
As far as deciding what to connect to which UPS, I generally adhere to a 'one computer, one UPS' policy.
Each computer has its own UPS, that makes sure that each gets maximum benefit of the battery when power does go out.
Only things usually connected to the UPS sockets are the CPU and the monitor (got to keep the CPU running, and need the monitor to see the screen to shut down smoothly).
Peripherals such as external disk drives also get a hookup to the UPS side of the unit.
Peripherals like printers and powered speakers only get connected to the sockets with surge suppression only - NOT the UPS side.
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TwistedLefty
join:2001-07-08
Excelsior Springs, MO
| reply to Vamp
nearby lightning strikes have fried motherboards and routers on my systems 2 times in the last 5 years, these systems were protected by APC units and i was only able to save hard drives, memory, vidcards.
my cable lines and house electric connections are fully grounded, nearby strikes will follow the lines and jump gaps easily.
do yourself a favor and unplug when lightning is near. | |
Vamp
5c077
Premium
join:2003-01-28
MD
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to dadkins
said by dadkins :All the "Protectors" you buy and purchase are for line surges and spikes. Lightning will usually fry even those! Seeing as lightning is jumping 2-20 miles to create a strike, some little box on your line isn't going to slow it down too much.  Best thing to do is when there is a storm, disconnect your valuable electronics from *ALL* connections. Power, cable, DSL - all of them! Yeah it's like the people that think the rubber on their tires is going to protect their car from lightning... If the multi million volt arch makes it all the way from the sky, it is not going to have any trouble crossing the mere 1~ foot gap from the car to the ground.
Your best protection from lightning is the ground, some type of full home protection.
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
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1 edit | reply to IGGY
Re: protection against electrical surge-(lightning)
Time4, that was beautiful, what a huge contribution! I have learned something.
So you say that the quality of the AC signal isn't so critical with computer switching power supplies? Ah, well, I know when I get sags my system keeps going thanks to the hold up time if I understand it correctly.
But wouldn't more instantaneous/sudden changes be a greater problem?
Also, so you are saying that metal oxide varistor based bars should be thrown away every year and get a new one? Dag, I thought I could get about 3 years out of one, but since you have to change batteries in a smoke detector every, oh, 12 months, well...
Now:
ziggy, if you will notice, I didn't say "google is your friend" because no one likes to be told that, so please lay off. What I said was "google is OUR friend" implying that once again I found some information useful from google, giving google the nod, showing that google helped me with a "question".
That you choose to misconstrue this as an implied insult is incorrect and unfair. Especially when you consider who you are talking to. I haven't seen much here of you of late, but I have been in here and been trying to help as much as I can in my own humble way. I am not as versed or knowledgeable as others, but I don't go around telling them to google it.
Sure, you are an MVM but that doesn't give you the right to scold me when it is for something I haven't done.
You accuse me of telling him to google but did you take the time to read all of my lengthy posts? Kindly, well...
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Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
| reply to whocares
You can never have too much protection.
Even the best and most protection will not make you completely safe.
The above holds true for almost everything, not just power.
The most common component in consumer/retail surge protectors is the metal oxide varistor (MOV). The MOVs that are used have a clamping voltage of 200-300 Volts. (The peak voltage of a 120V RMS sine wave is around 170V.)
These are sacrificial devices--they lose some of their capacity to absorb energy each time they come into play. This means that all MOVs have a limited service life that depends on how much energy they dissipate. One good power hit could end the service life of a brand-new surge protector.
They're also relatively small and light. This means that they're extremely limited in how much energy they can dissipate (convert to heat) during a short period of time. If every MOV on earth was placed in the same spot, a single lightning strike could destroy all of them.
That doesn't mean that MOVs are useless. It just means that they can't provide useful protection against voltages and currents in the "mega" range. They're great for mitigating occasional transients, like when the electric company does capacitor bank switching, or when an electrically noisy vacuum cleaner is being used on the same line. Also, they don't need to be placed between the source and the load to be effective. Because electricity propagates near the speed of light, a surge protector will offer some protection to all outlets on the same circuit. By the same token, it's also susceptible to transients generated by everything on that leg.
One important thing to remember about MOV-only surge protectors is that they need to be replaced on a regular basis. Think about replacing them as often as you're supposed to replace smoke detector batteries.
The next step up is power filters. These are typically simple, reactive LRC circuits designed to attenuate high frequencies. If you have a frequent or continuous source of noise on the line, this is the kind of device that you need. You just need to be sure that the circuit is able to dissipate continuous and transient energy without overheating. LRC filters do need to be placed between the power source and the load in order to be effective. The mass of the copper wire in the inductor (the L in LRC) stands between the load and the source. More mass means more energy can be absorbed at once.
Unlike MOVs, LRC filters are not sacrificial, as long as they are used within their ratings. A lightning strike will destroy them, of course. But as long as the electrical noise on the line is within their voltage rating, they can last for years. Unless it's an antique, an LRC filter device probably contains some MOVs as well. The MOVs compliment the LRC circuit because a MOV reacts much faster, and does a better job of shunting transient voltages to ground than a capacitor (the C in LRC) does. The third letter, "R", stands for resistor. Resistors aren't necessary to build an effective protection device, but it doesn't hurt to have them either. More mass to absorb more energy.
True LRC filter surge protectors are much more rare in retail stores than the cheaper MOV devices are. The Tripp-Lite Isobar power strips (more like boxes) are the most common, and can be found in computer stores. They protect home theater components equally well. In fact, there are Isobar models made just for that purpose. Brick Wall brand devices are the best that I know of that can be plugged into the wall. Beyond that, contractor grade components are designed to be built into a building's power distribution system. A really serious homeowner can have one installed, if they have the money.
When it comes to protection against catastrophic power surges, things like lightning and high-voltage overhead lines falling onto low-voltage lines, you're now well into the domain of contractor grade (professionally designed and installed) equipment. This is NOT a do it yourself thing!
In applications where direct lightning strikes are inevitable, such as radio and TV transmission sites, protection starts with lightning "rods". For the top of an antenna mast, it's usually something more like a big steel ring that's grounded to the mast, which in turn is grounded straight to earth. Some devices consist of many small spikes in various arrangements, that are designed to "rake" the air of static charge. They can't prevent lightning strikes, but they can reduce the intensity of the eventual strike a bit. They also provide a big target, so the lightning is less likely to jump to a radiator. Nevertheless, lightning can and does reach the radiating elements of antennae. There are many methods used to protect them (for one, they weigh tons), but the device that's relevant to this topic is the gas discharge tube.
The gas discharge tube picks up where the capacitor and MOV can't go. These devices are normally an open circuit, and are placed between an earth ground and the protected line. That line might carry utility power, or RF signals, or even POTS. When a voltage capable of ionizing the gas inside the tube occurs, the ionized gas becomes an electrical conductor, shunting energy to earth. GDTs aren't exactly cheap, but they are more affordable to have installed than LRC devices if your home is fed by overhead lines, has a rooftop antenna, etc.
Unless your UPS costs in excess of $1000, it's most likely the "standby" type. The other type, "online", has its inverter running 100% of the time, and is isolated from mains power by transformers and other components. Because they must run constantly, and therefore usually must produce a pure sine wave, the inverters in these devices are much more costly than those that need only run for a few minutes. Similarly, the power supply must also be beefed up, because it has to keep the battery charged and pass full power at the same time. The far more common standby UPS connects its load directly to the line during normal operation.
The kind that you're likely to have at home has only nominal protection features for normal operation. And because surge protectors can damage the inverter, you can't plug any into the UPS. That means that your UPS needs to be protected just like everything else. Otherwise it will fail when you need it most. There are exceptions, of course. But as a rule of thumb, if it cost less than $1000, came with a standard 15A NEMA plug and didn't arrive on a pallet, it's probably not very effective power protection.
Those with automatic voltage regulation (AVR) use an inexpensive buck/boost circuit that's fine for devices like computers, which have switching power supplies. (Contrary to popular belief, computers aren't very picky about the quality or voltage of power that that they get.) If you want to have voltage regulation for your home theater system, you need something other than a UPS. I've been using Furman Sound AC voltage regulators for 15 years, and recommend them highly. However they start at $500, which can put some people off. APC offers a new line of ACVRs that aren't quite as good as the Furman products, but are quite nice for the price, starting under $200.
As a veteran of the touring sound, broadcast and information systems industries, with 30 years under my belt, I've come to employ certain methods at home that are based on what I know to work in the most extreme conditions at work. Due to the transient nature of my jobs (no pun intended), I've been a renter, so I haven't installed the permanent, high protection devices that I've mentioned above. OTOH my experience with touring systems and semi-permanent on-location TV shoots has let me stretch what I can do with portable equipment.
The first thing that I do is find out which leg each circuit in my home is on. Residential power drops come from a center-tapped transformer, delivering 110-120VAC between the tap and each end, or "leg", and 220-240VAC between legs. The third conductor is called the "neutral", which is a dangerous assumption. The 220-240V circuit is a balanced line that is the same regardless of load. However the legs connected to the center tap can "pull" the neutral line's potential away from zero ground when more load is on either leg. Because there is some resistance in all home wiring, it's possible for there to be a substantial difference between neutral and ground at the outlet. The neutral is earth grounded at the service entrance. (It's the resistance that makes a voltage differential possible.) It's this unbalance that causes phantom buzzing in audio equipment.
Whenever I can, I rearrange the circuits at the breaker panel to put large appliances and other loads in as much balance as possible. I then use one leg for my analog equipment, and the other for computer stuff. When possible, I use two dedicated circuits. I make sure that other wall outlets on these circuits are only used for small loads.
From the wall each feed starts off with matching heavy duty LRC filters. From there, power is distributed by standard Isobars and sometimes purpose-built power cables for longer runs. My stereo is fed by a Furman AR-117 (soon to be upgraded), and my video equipment (I'm old school, no home theater for me) through a new APC H15, which I'm evaluating. A Furman PM-8DM provides extra outlets, and output voltage monitoring. The AR-117 has a bar graph display for input voltage, and the H15 shows both through a small LCD display that can't be read across the room.
Voltage regulation for my computer network comes through a modified Tripp-Lite LCR-2400, which feeds an APC SmartUPS 1400R and a pair of SmartUPS 1000 UPS boxes. My DSL and VoIP/cordless phone system has a dedicated BackUPS Pro 1100 UPS for extended runtime. That's it. The LCR-2400 obviates the need for the line interactive UPS boxes to use up precious battery power during brownouts.
My TiVo® boxes have their own APC BackUPS Pro 650 to keep them ready during brief outages. The 650 plugs into a dedicated "computer" plug on the H15.
My audio equipment is interconnected using shielded, balanced line cables, and fiber to the computers to guarantee isolation. I have a single cable connection that can be quickly disconnected prior to thunderstorms. The cable isn't likely to be struck by lightning, but the 20' vertical run can theoretically generate a couple hundred volts from the magnetic component of a nearby lightning strike.
For other electronics in the house, I balance the need for protection with the cost of the components. I have a $50 Isobar for my $150 TV/VCR combo in the bedroom mostly because I have spare Isobars. If the GFCI socket doesn't protect my $60 microwave, so what?
I guess I've rambled long enough. Hope this helps. | |
Jtmo
Premium
join:2001-05-20
Novato, CA | reply to whocares
Yes, one UPS 500VA for the computer.
A good surge protector for the TV/DVD etc. | |
IGGY
No Guru Just Here To Help
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-30
Chatham, IL
2 edits | reply to whocares
Uninterruptible Power Supply ( UPS ) do you have one - Iggy Uncensored. That article has my thoughts on the subject along with a few links to other opinions. This topic is one of those that can get heated. It is also one where you will see varying degrees of opinion. Not everyone can afford to have their home rewired or invest in a whole protection system. At the very least if you can afford it you should have a high quality UPS device protecting components.
»iggyz.com/blog/_archives/2007/3/···118.html
I'll be adding a link to this thread to that article right now. The unit I recently bought is this one. CyberPower / 8 Outlet / 1500VA / 900Watt / UPS with LCD Status Panel.
Google is not your friend. Who is your friend is someone who will take the time to give you solid honest advice with no BS and spin. I could go on but my point is this. A help forum is a place where people are supposed to get help. Not told to go Google it or spend hours banging their head against a wall in an FAQ. Especially when many people won't even link to the relevant content included within that FAQ.
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
Premium
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LOSTinSpace
clubs:
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| reply to whocares
Ah, my men, google is indeed our friend. Our heroes at This Old House have some things to say on the topic:
»www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/knowhow···,00.html
Some of it I have said.
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signmeuptoo
Folding and Crunching Not just Breakfast
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| reply to whocares
A lightning arrester can be as small as a medium size pill bottle. The best way to go with them is to get the ones that have an INDEPENDENT ground lead that bonds to a solid core wire that runs straight OUT of the breaker panel RATHER THAN TO the grounding bar in the panel. You will still have connectors for the common and both hot leads.
You can connect two of them in parallel for greater assurance. What our wise mod says about NOT daisy chaining MOV based surge protectors AND UPSs is totally accurate, however, there are other types of UPS/protectors that are not MOV based, and some types CAN BE daisy chanded, IIRC, but the guys in the electronics forum of the whole skinny on that, too, IIRC.
Having a superior sinking to ground deep inside your house structure can be to your disadvantage, you don't want a lighting strike to have its best path to ground being one that goes thruought your home. Think of a surge arrester as a high voltage/high current/high speed clamp, or drawbridge that keeps out the bad guys from getting into your castle. In fact, they are based upon lighting jumping down and through them.
NOTE: I just found something from the NEC that is important, please read:
»www.codebookcity.com/codearticle···e280.htm
So you need to carefully implement the proper grounding. I, sadly, do not have access to the latest NEC book, so I cannot go into it any further. It has been, what, about 3 decades since I did electrical work and things have changed. Suffice it to say that you need a really good ground.
While the average Joe Shmoe *can* install some types of arresters, the grounding part is best left to a pro. Why? Because they will do a soil study or KNOW the soil where you live and as such, know what grounding is best. The type of soil, dryness, and other things dictate the type of grounding.
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ctceo
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join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
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| reply to whocares
As everyone has stated before, a direct lightning strike is going to wipe out your surge protector, and anything connected to it.
Your best bet (if your going all out) is to make sure that you have a few lightning arrestors outside your home if possible connected as directly to the ground as possible with a good as thick as you can get it copper wire, and ground rod. Keep all your precious equipment indoors connected to line conditioners, and purchase UPS' for your pc's and network equipment. If you have the cash don't skimp. Cheap surge Protectors will protect you up to the 75-100 joule rating (often less), and a transient lightning strike that hits a phone, cable, and/or power line nearby can start at upward of 1000 joules or more. Some line conditioners in the $350 and up price range can protect against 2000 joule strikes, often at the cost of their very own lifespan. If you consider those worth while investments.
The Wikipedia has some very cool information about lightning if your interested.
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning | |
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